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post #3971 of 4244 (permalink) Old 02-18-2019, 09:44 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by scracy View Post
Reason for changing motherboard?
A friend want it and I'm not using a custom loop with the Formula sooo yeah. This is a good opportunity for me to go with a z390 board.

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post #3972 of 4244 (permalink) Old 02-18-2019, 09:56 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by bl4ckdot View Post
A friend want it and I'm not using a custom loop with the Formula sooo yeah. This is a good opportunity for me to go with a z390 board.
Fair enough, from using your 9900K with MXF overclocking point of view you wouldn't have any issues,at least I haven't

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post #3973 of 4244 (permalink) Old 02-19-2019, 09:23 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by elmor View Post
Something around 20-50 Msps and 50-100 MHz bandwidth should work. More than 8-bit vertical resolution would also be good but it's expensive. The difficult part is not getting a scope it's getting good readings without noise.
Analog scopes are different, meaning that resolution is not in bits. I'm not sure abut the MSPS figure if that applies. It is a Tektronix or an HP/Agilent, I dont remember, which was 500$ second hand ad something like 3k when new thirty years ago.
My friend uses it to test audio equipment and to get the same performance with a digital scope the specs needs to be high.
What it cannot do is record data or save screenshots, I would need to take a video, but I'm pretty positive that any spikes would be visible.

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post #3974 of 4244 (permalink) Old 02-19-2019, 12:01 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by elmor View Post
Can you put axes on the graph? Might make it easier to understand what you mean. Normally it's output voltage (actual, not set) on the y-axis and output current on the x-axis.
Thanks for joining in. The missing axes are a problem with BIOS illustrations as well, usually those say VCore (y) vs. "CPU Load(ing)" (x), not necessarily current on the x-axis. So I would say that "CPU load" makes sense on my upside-down graph as well, which usually also corresponds to current, though.

Quote:
Depending on your load-line setting, at a certain output current the voltage will be higher or lower. Load-line Calibration is a marketing term and "hides" a corresponding load-line value in mOhm (milliohm). A higher Load-line Calibration Level on Asus boards means a lower load-line value and less droop. The droop is calculated as Vdroop = Iout*loadline. For example 100A*0.5mOhm = 50mV below the set voltage.
I understand, but still find the graph at least counter-productive, because it suggest that something is "added" or increased compared to lower LLC settings. It even suggest that lower LLC settings are flatter, while in practice the opposite is the case.

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post #3975 of 4244 (permalink) Old 02-19-2019, 01:08 PM
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Overclockers was able to overclock the Z390 Extreme4 , but the power consumption numbers are still concerning:
https://www.overclockers.com/asrock-...ce-king-again/
Quote:
Overclocking on this motherboard was simple and straightforward as expected. We cranked all the power and current limits started at 5 GHz and pushed up to the limits of our cooling. The board did have some vdroop with it when under load with the system set to auto (mode 4 is default). Adjusting this to LLC 1 will yield the least amount of vdroop. In this case, setting it to LLC1 still had a bit of droop, we set 1.33 V in the BIOS and under load ended up at 1.312 V. I prefer it to be exact (and have headroom for ‘vraise), but even cranked it wouldn’t quite match.

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post #3976 of 4244 (permalink) Old 02-19-2019, 01:16 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by elmor View Post
Can you put axes on the graph? Might make it easier to understand what you mean. Normally it's output voltage (actual, not set) on the y-axis and output current on the x-axis. Depending on your load-line setting, at a certain output current the voltage will be higher or lower. Load-line Calibration is a marketing term and "hides" a corresponding load-line value in mOhm (milliohm). A higher Load-line Calibration Level on Asus boards means a lower load-line value and less droop. The droop is calculated as Vdroop = Iout*loadline. For example 100A*0.5mOhm = 50mV below the set voltage.






Something around 20-50 Msps and 50-100 MHz bandwidth should work. More than 8-bit vertical resolution would also be good but it's expensive. The difficult part is not getting a scope it's getting good readings without noise.




All Maximus XI 4-DIMM boards should perform similarly in terms of memory speed. I'd recommend you to compare the QVLs, it should be indicative of its capability.

http://download.gigabyte.asia/FileLi...eme_181205.pdf
https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/m...EME_190218.pdf

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While we're on the subject of loadline, just finished 2 tests using my entire morning (couldn't play any video games, sigh
Hopefully the Analog scope will help tell us whats going on with the voltage stability. @Telstar Thank you!

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LLC6 (Turbo LLC),Bios set: 1.195v, VR VOUT: 1.131v, FMA3 15K in place fixed prime95 (29.5 build 10): 2 hours stable (max IOUT: 162 amps, 90C max). Any lower=random chance of a thread crashing in <2 hours

Attempting to use LLC6 (turbo) with bios : 1.170v (VR VOUT: 1.109v) results in threads 7/8 or 11/12 (or 7/8 and 11/12 at the same time!) crashing in less than 10 minutes
So Higher vdroop LLC needs 1.107v, while less vdroop needs 1.131v for the same stability, despite temps and power draw being hotter from the higher "average" target VR VOUT.

Has to be voltage fluctuations causing this. The oscilloscope test will get to the bottom of this.
(Most obvious will be LLC8. Attempting to even do LLC8 (Ultra Extreme) at 1.10v Bios set->1.10v VR VOUT, FMA3 15K fixed in place --> almost IMMEDIATE "Clock Watchdog Timeout" or WHEA Uncorrectable error).

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post #3977 of 4244 (permalink) Old 02-19-2019, 09:11 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Telstar View Post
Analog scopes are different, meaning that resolution is not in bits. I'm not sure abut the MSPS figure if that applies. It is a Tektronix or an HP/Agilent, I dont remember, which was 500$ second hand ad something like 3k when new thirty years ago.
My friend uses it to test audio equipment and to get the same performance with a digital scope the specs needs to be high.
What it cannot do is record data or save screenshots, I would need to take a video, but I'm pretty positive that any spikes would be visible.

Sure, go by the bandwidth spec with an analog scope.

Quote: Originally Posted by Timur Born View Post
Thanks for joining in. The missing axes are a problem with BIOS illustrations as well, usually those say VCore (y) vs. "CPU Load(ing)" (x), not necessarily current on the x-axis. So I would say that "CPU load" makes sense on my upside-down graph as well, which usually also corresponds to current, though.


I understand, but still find the graph at least counter-productive, because it suggest that something is "added" or increased compared to lower LLC settings. It even suggest that lower LLC settings are flatter, while in practice the opposite is the case.

CPU Loading = Output current, the re-naming seems like a bad attempt at making it easier to understand. Saying higher/lower LLC is adding to the confusion since lower LLC Level on Asus = higher load-line, while a lower LLC Level on Asrock = lower load-line. It's preferred to either specify higher/lower load-line or droop as that can't be misunderstood. Have a look at this spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing . Hopefully it will make it easier to understand what you mean, you can edit the values, see the calculations etc.

The example uses 1.2V as the set point. 0mohm load-line would be equivalent to LLC = Level 8 on Asus Z390 boards.




Last edited by elmor; 02-19-2019 at 09:18 PM.
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post #3978 of 4244 (permalink) Old 02-19-2019, 09:35 PM
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post #3979 of 4244 (permalink) Old 02-19-2019, 09:51 PM
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Mobo manuf should use ohms as unit of measure for llc instead of "llc level"

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post #3980 of 4244 (permalink) Old 02-19-2019, 10:26 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by kignt View Post
Mobo manuf should use ohms as unit of measure for llc instead of "llc level"
Plus if you see my previous posts, higher LLC level (lower mOhms of resistance) causes much higher voltage oscillations (and thus instability) at *high* currents (like FMA3 small FFT (4k-20K in prime95 29.6 build 2). Hopefully the oscilloscope testing will shed some light on this!

https://mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=24094

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Last edited by Falkentyne; 02-19-2019 at 10:36 PM.
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