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post #4111 of 4250 (permalink) Old 06-30-2019, 11:07 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Imprezzion View Post
How hard can I push a 9900K on a MSI MEG Z390 Ace. I basically know the answer is probably as much as my cooling allows but what if I ever get crazy and wanna do a good old DIce or LN2 run.. will the Ace run a 9900K on DIce clocks and voltages without puking VRM guts everywhere?
It's using 12x Onsemi NTMFS4C029N+ NTMFS4C024N. So you're at the mercy of the VRM heatsinking on ambient cooling if you're using a lot of current. The official limit per Intel spec is 193A , across 12 high side/low side fets that is ~16A each which isn't ridiculously much for these mosfets if they are heatsinked and cooled.

From Onsemi's calculator and my own calculations I would expect just under 89% efficiency at 16A each. That's around 33W across the entire VRM.

It should be fine as long as you aren't pushing excessive current and cooling it but the board was never a good buy at $290.

https://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/NTMFS4C029N-D.PDF
https://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/NTMFS4C024N-D.PDF

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post #4112 of 4250 (permalink) Old 06-30-2019, 12:16 PM
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Finally managed to get some decent scope pictures of the load-line transients at different load-line levels and switching frequencies. The measurement is from the differential CPU die-sense. The load is based on the CPU interrupts occurring every ~16ms while idle in BIOS.

Based on the waveforms, the ideal LLC would be around Level 3 where your undershoot matches the load voltage and there's not much overshoot to talk about. Increasing the switching frequency from 500 to 800 KHz doesn't seem to make much difference.

Measurement setup

ROG Maximus XI Gene
Intel Core i9-9900K @ 4.7G 1.200V
Siglent SDS1104X-E

Summary





FSW = 500 KHz

















FSW = 800 KHz
















Last edited by elmor; 06-30-2019 at 10:54 PM.
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post #4113 of 4250 (permalink) Old 06-30-2019, 12:35 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by AlphaC View Post
It's using 12x Onsemi NTMFS4C029N+ NTMFS4C024N. So you're at the mercy of the VRM heatsinking on ambient cooling if you're using a lot of current. The official limit per Intel spec is 193A , across 12 high side/low side fets that is ~16A each which isn't ridiculously much for these mosfets if they are heatsinked and cooled.

From Onsemi's calculator and my own calculations I would expect just under 89% efficiency at 16A each. That's around 33W across the entire VRM.

It should be fine as long as you aren't pushing excessive current and cooling it but the board was never a good buy at $290.

https://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/NTMFS4C029N-D.PDF
https://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/NTMFS4C024N-D.PDF
Thanks for the info. Only reason I got this specific board is because I need MSI Mystic Sync to sync all my RGB and this was available secondhand for a reasonable price including the 9900K. I was planning on a 9700K but this price was too good.

I run just a CM ML360R 360 aio for daily so probably not going to get very far. Previous owner ran 5.1Ghz HT on 1.33v load with no AVX offset. I would like to be able to run that 24/7 on these VRM lol.

But, I do plan on playing on a LAN with some DIce overclocking again and I wanna know if this thing can bench 6Ghz + all core ~1.60-1.65v without nuking the VRM...

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post #4114 of 4250 (permalink) Old 06-30-2019, 01:44 PM
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Depends on what you are benching , it will throttle itself if you do something insane anyhow.


CPU freq on LN2: https://hwbot.org/submission/4092461...0k_6547.58_mhz

CBR15 6GHz LN2 : https://hwbot.org/submission/4092535..._9900k_2576_cb
PCmark10 on LN2:https://hwbot.org/submission/4136336...00k_6298_marks


X265 (AVX) on water (@5.14GHz) https://hwbot.org/submission/4110437...00k_66.888_fps

XTU on AIO (@5.13GHz): https://hwbot.org/submission/4163954...00k_3526_marks
GB4 multicore on water (@5.1GHz): https://hwbot.org/submission/4111305...k_37548_points


The 4c029N high side fet isn't that quick so I wouldn't expect any miracles with it. If I were in your position I would have picked up something from Asus (Z390-A and up), Asrock (Taichi especially since it uses TI NexFETs with less than half the rise time), or Gigabyte (Aorus Pro and up) as they use powerstages with integrated drivers or powerblocks.



Quote: Originally Posted by elmor View Post
Finally managed to get some decent scope pictures of the load-line transients at different load-line levels and switching frequencies. The measurement is from the differential CPU die-sense. The load is based on the CPU interrupts occurring every ~16ms while idle in BIOS.

Based on the waveforms, the ideal LLC would be around Level 3 where your undershoot matches the load voltage and there's not much overshoot to talk about. Increasing the switching frequency from 500 to 800 KHz doesn't seem to make much difference.

Measurement setup

ROG Maximus XI Gene
Intel Core i9-9900K @ 4.7G 1.200V
Siglent SDX1104X-E

Summary





Wouldn't it be better to test with MCE-like clocks? I don't think anyone sane buying a $400 Gene is going to be running 4.7GHz @ 1.2V. Maybe 5.0-5.1GHz with AVX offset.


Also is that a typo? Should be SDS1104X-E, no?



Good to see some results though

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post #4115 of 4250 (permalink) Old 06-30-2019, 02:07 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by elmor View Post
Spoiler!
Sweet Mother of God.
That Siglent looks so much better than the Rigol and that scope TIN (on the gamersnexus video with Steve) had with the GPU loadline thing!
Thank you Elmor!

With you and buildzoid's video, this is scope heaven !
*edit*
Just read your post again.
Those spikes and dips are just sitting idle in the BIOS?

Oh dear... 80mv dip at LLC8 at idle... :/
The dip with prime95 FMA3 running would probably by guessing be close to 150mv (!!)
That's scary....

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Quote: Originally Posted by sakete View Post
Well, I want you to know I have an academic degree in speculation.

Last edited by Falkentyne; 06-30-2019 at 02:48 PM.
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post #4116 of 4250 (permalink) Old 06-30-2019, 02:41 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by AlphaC View Post
Depends on what you are benching , it will throttle itself if you do something insane anyhow.


CPU freq on LN2: https://hwbot.org/submission/4092461...0k_6547.58_mhz

CBR15 6GHz LN2 : https://hwbot.org/submission/4092535..._9900k_2576_cb
PCmark10 on LN2:https://hwbot.org/submission/4136336...00k_6298_marks


X265 (AVX) on water (@5.14GHz) https://hwbot.org/submission/4110437...00k_66.888_fps

XTU on AIO (@5.13GHz): https://hwbot.org/submission/4163954...00k_3526_marks
GB4 multicore on water (@5.1GHz): https://hwbot.org/submission/4111305...k_37548_points


The 4c029N high side fet isn't that quick so I wouldn't expect any miracles with it. If I were in your position I would have picked up something from Asus (Z390-A and up), Asrock (Taichi especially since it uses TI NexFETs with less than half the rise time), or Gigabyte (Aorus Pro and up) as they use powerstages with integrated drivers or powerblocks.






Wouldn't it be better to test with MCE-like clocks? I don't think anyone sane buying a $400 Gene is going to be running 4.7GHz @ 1.2V. Maybe 5.0-5.1GHz with AVX offset.


Also is that a typo? Should be SDS1104X-E, no?



Good to see some results though
Do you remember those +200mv/-200mv spikes on buildzoid's video which occured when he thermal throttled?
Thermal throttling causes the same worst case transients as an AVX offset.

Those are what happens when an AVX offset gets triggered during a stress test.
Because the PLL's go to sleep and then awaken at the new frequency, creating a nightmare if the caps are charged with high current.

https://rog.asus.com/forum/showthrea...t=explanations

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Quote: Originally Posted by sakete View Post
Well, I want you to know I have an academic degree in speculation.
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post #4117 of 4250 (permalink) Old 06-30-2019, 03:31 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Falkentyne View Post
Do you remember those +200mv/-200mv spikes on buildzoid's video which occured when he thermal throttled?
200mV?! You have a link for that?

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post #4118 of 4250 (permalink) Old 06-30-2019, 04:17 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Luck100 View Post
200mV?! You have a link for that?
Close to the end of this video where he's reaching 100C


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Quote: Originally Posted by sakete View Post
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post #4119 of 4250 (permalink) Old 06-30-2019, 05:09 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by AlphaC View Post
Depends on what you are benching , it will throttle itself if you do something insane anyhow.


CPU freq on LN2: https://hwbot.org/submission/4092461...0k_6547.58_mhz

CBR15 6GHz LN2 : https://hwbot.org/submission/4092535..._9900k_2576_cb
PCmark10 on LN2:https://hwbot.org/submission/4136336...00k_6298_marks


X265 (AVX) on water (@5.14GHz) https://hwbot.org/submission/4110437...00k_66.888_fps

XTU on AIO (@5.13GHz): https://hwbot.org/submission/4163954...00k_3526_marks
GB4 multicore on water (@5.1GHz): https://hwbot.org/submission/4111305...k_37548_points


The 4c029N high side fet isn't that quick so I wouldn't expect any miracles with it. If I were in your position I would have picked up something from Asus (Z390-A and up), Asrock (Taichi especially since it uses TI NexFETs with less than half the rise time), or Gigabyte (Aorus Pro and up) as they use powerstages with integrated drivers or powerblocks.






Wouldn't it be better to test with MCE-like clocks? I don't think anyone sane buying a $400 Gene is going to be running 4.7GHz @ 1.2V. Maybe 5.0-5.1GHz with AVX offset.


Also is that a typo? Should be SDS1104X-E, no?



Good to see some results though
I had a Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Elite with a 9600K. That board was great but holy hell that BIOS was artrocious and the LLC was uncontrollable.. No way to get a voltage anywhere near stable in terms of differing loads.. Might have been a monday morning model but still. Got rid of it since a collegue wanted that set and i have my 7700K for daily still (on a MSI Z170A Gaming M7 which has seen a lot of abuse. a LOT. and is still going strong).

I do love ASUS, always have, but i have a full RGB "show" build which uses a MSI RTX2080 Gaming X Trio. The only way to properly sync everything would be to go MSI for the board as well as it can sync with my case, GPU, RAM and cooler.

Let me put it like this, what if i do decide to get an ASUS and trade my MSI RTX2080 for a ASUS one to keep the sync capabilities. Which ASUS board would be decent enough for at least a daily 5.1 @ 1.33v ish clock on a 9900K. Without throttling even in 30c ambients. I like looks a lot. The Z390-F is €190, the -E is €231, the Prime -A is €180 but the color scheme doesn't match my build at all.
Then there's the -H at €205 and the Maxi XI Hero at €287. I prefer the looks of the -E or -F Strix. Are either of those good enough.

Cars:
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post #4120 of 4250 (permalink) Old 06-30-2019, 08:57 PM
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I'm not sure on the STRIX boards but the main advantage of the Hero over the STRIX is the use of a heatpipe and 10K hour FP caps as well as debug LED: layout is more or less the same. Prime -A and STRIX are more or less the same other than audio , the powerstages are upped from 45A Onsemi ones to 50A Vishay ones.


I don't know that much about the RGB syncing stuff since I turn off all RGB features on my boards and peripherals but I can tell you that buying a STRIX GPU probably isn't worth the price premium over the MSI GPU. There's probably better ways to get things to be the same color though.

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