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post #8971 of 9068 (permalink) Old 05-23-2020, 10:31 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by XGS-Duplicity View Post
okay so it appears memory overclocking did not change at all on z490 gigabyte boards, rtls are still garbage(Those are the same rtls for 4400 i get on gigabyte z390 master). Maybe they changed the cut off point? Like maybe they give good rtls at 4000 or 4100 instead of only up to 3900? Heres to hoping they put some sort of effort into actually improving their product aside from slapping on a new chipset and changing the aesthetics. Since you have a relationship with gigabyte, Can you ask gigabyte what made them think it was a good idea to make an arbitrary cut off point on their boards to where memory performs worse regardless of ram bin/imc? Is it just a simple case of engineers being too lazy to program lower rtl numbers for 4000 and up?

Is gigabyte at least allowing you to at least adjust rtls for higher frequencies now like we could at 3900 and below on z390? Like do rtls actually show up in the bios for 4000 and up now or do rtls still show up blank with a dash in the bios like they did in gigabyte z390? Do you know if the gigabyte z490 extreme behaves the same way or does the extreme offer good rtls at 4000 and up to justify the price tag?

Also, since the qvl now shows 2 dimm configurations clocking the best and 4 dimm configurations topping out at 4133mhz, does this mean that the z490 master is a daisy chain board and not T-topology?
I lowered the RTLs by 1 to 90 90 and 73 and the board kept boot looping at d5, then eventually said boot failure detected, and all settings were reset to stock everywhere. Was I also supposed to lower iol? As I said I dont know what Im doing.

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Quote: Originally Posted by sakete View Post
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post #8972 of 9068 (permalink) Old 05-23-2020, 10:34 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Falkentyne View Post
I lowered the RTLs by 1 to 90 90 and 73 and the board kept boot looping at d5, then eventually said boot failure detected, and all settings were reset to stock everywhere. Was I also supposed to lower iol? As I said I dont know what Im doing.

Gimme a sec, gonna look at the asrock thing and i can tell you where to push what. You could also be looping/getting boot failure due to wrong/bad tcwl. gonna give it a gander and i'll let you know what I think you should try on those 4000 sticks.

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post #8973 of 9068 (permalink) Old 05-23-2020, 10:35 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by XGS-Duplicity View Post
Daisy chain thought so, thanks for confirming. I'm fairly certain based off the rtls alone that I have my mind made up on z490 gigabyte boards. no further tests required. was going to type a long wall of text but i think its pointless. If gigabyte didn't fix their rtls/memory oc issue after 2 years of customers complaining, then i'm just convinced they don't give a crap what their customers want. This is one example as to why the idea of "brand loyalty" is complete nonsense. It's literally as simple as programming lower numbers, that's it. They just need to follow the same rtl spacing from 3200-3900 for 4000+. If a board can do 35 ns @ cas 14 3900, it should be able to do 35 ns at a higher frequency as well because the rest is up to the imc/voltages/sticks. I feel like this has less to do with memory trace layout at this point and everything to do with bios programming because between both generations/2 different topology layouts, gigabyte is still delivering roughly the same exact latency for 4000 and up. Just seems like bad arbitrary programming. I guess bios engineers are lazy or something or were explicitly instructed NOT to improve memory OC. Sorry rant over. Was really hoping z490 gigabyte would be an option in the future for me as it will probably also support rocket lake so that I can keep my lighting synced across my whole system with rgb fusion. Maybe I should just pick up the next z390 apex I come across for memory oc and then build a new system again in 6-8 years. The upgrade path is clearly pointless with gigabyte if the products don't improve from generation to generation. Send this message to whom it may concern or if you have someone's contact information at corporate hq I can pass this to, let me know. I'd certainly like to see their products improve.
I lowered the four RTLs by 1 and then lowered the four iol's by 1 also and the board looped and i was back in BIOS at 2133 mhz

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Quote: Originally Posted by sakete View Post
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post #8974 of 9068 (permalink) Old 05-23-2020, 10:42 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Falkentyne View Post
I lowered the four RTLs by 1 and then lowered the four iol's by 1 also and the board looped and i was back in BIOS at 2133 mhz

Ok with 2 dimms, if you adjust channels/dimms that are blank/empty sometimes settings don't stick, at least thats how it was on z390 master with my dimms. Adjust only the rtls/iols for the channels in use.



Train 4400 again with the volts you were using, but then when you try to lower rtls/iols by one each for used channel, increase sa/io by 50mv each and vdimm/vtraining by 50mv each. Curious if that will help rtls stick/train. I know that if I don't use 1.35v sa/io, 1.45v vcore and 1.54v vtraining while trying to train cas 14-3900, it won't train good rtls. Maybe higher values will allow you to adjust rtls better or just flat out train better rtls. Is there any memory oc feature like trace centering or anything like that in the bios? Did the rtls for 4400mhz appear in the bios after initial training or do they still show up blank with a dash? If they still show up blank with a dash at 4000mhz+, i'm fairly certain they are non-adjustable for those frequencies since on z390 they were only adjustable if they appeared in the bios(they only appeared for 3900 and under).

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Last edited by XGS-Duplicity; 05-23-2020 at 10:52 AM.
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post #8975 of 9068 (permalink) Old 05-23-2020, 10:51 AM
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Ok see here's my bios. I have NO idea what to do at all.

Did I tell you I hate memory overclocking?

Meanwhile in the m12e, my dual rank sticks boot 3600 1T without even trying....
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Quote: Originally Posted by sakete View Post
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post #8976 of 9068 (permalink) Old 05-23-2020, 10:55 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Falkentyne View Post
Ok see here's my bios. I have NO idea what to do at all.

Did I tell you I hate memory overclocking?

Meanwhile in the m12e, my dual rank sticks boot 3600 1T without even trying....

The line where it shows 74/76 for ch a/b, key in 72. The iol line that shows 14, key in 12. increase sa/io/vdimm/vtraining/vcore all by 50mv extra than what you initially trained with, see if it trains the adjusted rtls/iols. If it doesn't train, I think 4000+ and up is stuck with whatever you are given. For reference, in order to train [email protected] I have to use +150mv offset with low vcore llc or higher, 1.35v sa/io, and 1.54v vtraining 1.56v vdimm + enhanced multicore performance on just for ram training. it doesn't complete training for me if EMC is disabled and if I didn't have enough vcore.

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Last edited by XGS-Duplicity; 05-23-2020 at 11:05 AM.
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post #8977 of 9068 (permalink) Old 05-23-2020, 11:10 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by XGS-Duplicity View Post
The line where it shows 74/76 for ch a/b, key in 72. The iol line that shows 14, key in 12. increase sa/io/vdimm/vtraining/vcore all by 50mv extra than what you initially trained with, see if it trains the adjusted rtls/iols. If it doesn't train, I think 4000+ and up is stuck with whatever you are given. For reference, in order to train [email protected] I have to use +150mv offset with low vcore llc or higher, 1.35v sa/io, and 1.54v vtraining 1.56v vdimm + enhanced multicore performance on just for ram training. it doesn't complete training for me if EMC is disabled and if I didn't have enough vcore.
I increased them all.

Fails on d5 then starts over until boot failure.

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Quote: Originally Posted by sakete View Post
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post #8978 of 9068 (permalink) Old 05-23-2020, 11:14 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Falkentyne View Post
I increased them all.

Fails on d5 then starts over until boot failure.

rats. Nothing else I can suggest on my end, maybe talk to iunlock, he has had decent success on the z390 master at 4000+ with slightly better than average rtls though he was using 1000 USD quality dimms. in the meantime i'll continue to scour around the web for results from new z490 owners. really curious how much better the 10th gen imc is than 9th gen for the 8c and 10c chips. Like before it was incredibly hard/rare to get a 9900k to hit 5ghz memory OC and required an apex. Now other boards claim they can do it but I wonder how common or rare a good enough imc to pull it off will be. Anywho, thank you for the testing, +1 rep.

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Last edited by XGS-Duplicity; 05-23-2020 at 11:23 AM.
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post #8979 of 9068 (permalink) Old 05-23-2020, 01:05 PM
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Heads up, I don't know why it works now but it didn't in the past, but 500khz switchrate is now working extremely well for 5.3ghz ht/off. My required load voltage went from 1.38v in cbr15 to 1.36v regardless if water is 23c or 28c. I'm still on the same f9 bios. I'm still using the same exact profile minus the switchrate change. I don't know what changed but it works good now. If gigabyte people did something behind the scenes, cool and thank you. If not, well, cool anyway because my OC is now cooler, like still below 80c at 1.39v load voltage in cbr20 on just an aio and liquid metal. In the past, 500khz was just auto unstable for me but with medium llc and acdc 1/1, it's working well for pushing the limits. Other users may want to revisit 500khz switchrate if they are on dvid mode. I have not been able to verify if it behaves differently on manual vcore mode because i'm afraid to change my OC at this point since it is performing up to expectations. Just wanted to share my findings.

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post #8980 of 9068 (permalink) Old 05-23-2020, 01:33 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by XGS-Duplicity View Post
Heads up, I don't know why it works now but it didn't in the past, but 500khz switchrate is now working extremely well for 5.3ghz ht/off. My required load voltage went from 1.38v in cbr15 to 1.36v regardless if water is 23c or 28c. I'm still on the same f9 bios. I'm still using the same exact profile minus the switchrate change. I don't know what changed but it works good now. If gigabyte people did something behind the scenes, cool and thank you. If not, well, cool anyway because my OC is now cooler, like still below 80c at 1.39v load voltage in cbr20 on just an aio and liquid metal. In the past, 500khz was just auto unstable for me but with medium llc and acdc 1/1, it's working well for pushing the limits. Other users may want to revisit 500khz switchrate if they are on dvid mode. I have not been able to verify if it behaves differently on manual vcore mode because i'm afraid to change my OC at this point since it is performing up to expectations. Just wanted to share my findings.
What Bios version are you using? Did you shut off AC Power and re-test it? I was on F11e.

My Z390 Master is unhooked with no heatsink or power, because I have no place to hook it up, and all the parts and two PSU's are on the Z490 Master and the M12E.

Can you try to replicate this after turning off all AC power? Because if you can't, this is some sort of bug, or something strange the VRM is doing. I saw that happen myself, once or twice, after I switched profiles. It happened once after playing Battlefield 5 at 5.2 ghz, then changing to 4.7 ghz and 500hz (on purpose), running LinX at a voltage I knew was not stable in LinX, and suddenly all residuals matched (usually required 300 khz). Then later it was unstable again during LinX at 500 khz (i was using LinX 0.9.6 residual matching to determine stability). Then I saw consistent results with more residual stability when testing 300 and 500 again. I also do not know if the IR 35201 is responsible for this, or the IR 3555 power stages.

Since I don't have an oscilloscope, I have absolutely no idea what the transient voltages were doing. What i *do* know is that people on the Maximus XI Apex and Gene tested 500 khz vs 800 khz and they all found 500khz needed lower vmin voltage than 800 khz. (the Gene and Apex use an ASP controller (relabeled IR 35201) and IR 3555 power stages, and the Aorus master and Xtreme (both benefit from 300 khz) use IR 35201 and IR 3599 power stages.

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Quote: Originally Posted by sakete View Post
Well, I want you to know I have an academic degree in speculation.

Last edited by Falkentyne; 05-23-2020 at 01:42 PM.
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