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Radiator Size Estimator

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post #1 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-07-2014, 10:25 PM - Thread Starter
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A few peeps have asked me to provide this info in an easily accessible / findable spot so the don't have to remember what thread it is in or take snippets from multiple threads. If ya find it useful, great .... if ya like something better, by all means use what ya comfy with. First off, I did not create any of the test data ... it's just not available in any one place so that's the only real help I can offer..... besides letting the spreadsheet "do the math" for all of us.

Step 1 - Heat Load Calculation.

a) CPU Load - For this I usually use this PSU calculator

http://extreme.outervision.com/PSUEngine

Plug in ya CPU, anticipated OC and voltage.... hit "overclock my CPU", thatz ya number....for me it was 135 watts. We don't wanna use the total PSU wattage, it accounts for capacitor aging and adds headroom.....just use the "overclock my CPU" subsection where it gives ya the wattage for CPU only

b) GFX Card Load - For this I usually use Guru3D.com's Power Consumption Data

Example: http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/geforce_gtx_780_review,9.html
Quote:
Subjective obtained GPU power consumption = ~ 231 Watts

Now I typically shoot for a 25% overclock .... Now at the very least, if ya wanna go 25% faster, ya gonna use at least 25% more power. But I remembered reading at some point that the way some sites recommended estimating OC'd wattage was to take the % speed increase and square it .... so if I wanna go 1.25 times faster, 1.25^2 was 1.56. But that seemed way to much especially w/ today's voltage limits so I usually go with 1.28 - 1.35 for a 25% OC.

231 x 1.28 = 296 watts or 592 watts for two cards.

c) RAM - I don't see any reason to cool RAM unless ya doing LN2 but if that's ya thing, I figure 3 -5 watts per stick based upon the above PSU calculator and and things I have read in various stickies over the years.

d) MoBo VRMs and Chipsets - Martins and most sites I have visited recommend 10 - 20 for each or 20 - 40 total.


e) Pumps - Most peeps forget about this item .... but ya can find the wattage for ya pumps on martins site

Example: http://martinsliquidlab.org/2012/01/29/swiftech-mcp35x2-pump/6/

Here you will see a max wattage of 51.52 watts for the twin pumps and 46 watts of heat.

Summary: For me it was 135 (CPU) + 592 (GFX) + 20 (MoBo VRMs) + 46 (Pump) = 792 watts


Step 1 - Heat Load Allocation.

Th next step I take is to "guestimate" what portion of the heat load is to be handled by the rads / fans. To my understanding, Martin specifically designed his tests to measure ONLY the cooling provided by the rad and fans.... even thermal radiation from the rad shroud thru the sides is excluded. And don't forget , heat is being radiated by all the tubing, fittings, exposed portions of water blocks and backplates, etc. ..... and not everything hits max load at the same time.

Now I'd like to claim some scientific method or keen insight was used but I basically came up with the numbers based upon reading all of peoples build results here on OCN..... looking at what the numbers said they should have and what they actually had ....and then looking at my own system (six temperature meters installed to measure temps at various points in the loop + ambient and case temps). At the end of the day .... it seemed for the most part, if ya had enough rad / fans to provide about 60% of the calculated heat load, you were doing OK. Now this is for the typical office application / gaming system and a higher number should be used for 24/7 folding, bitcoin mining or other similar uses. Suggestions welcome.

So in my case.... 792 x 60% = 475.2 so I went a lookin for 465 - 500 watts of rad cooling as a minimum

Would like some input here as Im sure 60% is low for a CPU and 60% is high for a GPU but the 60% average seems to work..... anyone who has rad in / out temps..... measured Delta Ts nor other relevant data, please post.

Step 3 - Rad Estimation.

All data based upon test results from martins liquid lab

http://martinsliquidlab.org/2012/04/12/alphacool-nexxxos-ut60-360-radiator/4/
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?287200-Flower-Labs-News-Comparison-of-Radiator-Cooling-Efficiency
http://martinsliquidlab.petrastech.com/Radiator-Fan-Orientation-And-Shroud-Testing-Review.html

Martin has a great set of data on his site for numerous 360 radiators including the Alphacool ST30, XT45 and UT60 each of which "tops the charts" from 1000 rpm on up. Xtreme systems had comparable data on the Monsta. As I found it difficult to try and convert the 360 to 240 and 480 equivalents each time I sized a system, I made a spreadsheet to "do the math" for me". Now I am by no means suggesting that all the data is, using that technical term from "My Cousin Vinnie" ..... "Dead-on balls accurate". It is however several orders of magnitude better than the "1 per heat producing component" rule of thumb.

The only data here which is "Dead-on balls accurate" is the data for the 360 rads (indicated by gray shading) as that is a direct quote of what is in Martin's charts. And while we all know that a 120 rad will not exactly be 1/3 of a 360, it's certainly the best approximation I can come up with....if we can accept that, then it's not hard to jump to the 240 being 2 x the 120 and a 480 being 4 x the 120. For the 140mm width rads, again, not "dead on balls accurate" but the numbers are a simple surface area allocation....essentially 140 x 140 / 120 x 120..... until we actually have a set of test data to work with on 140mm, it's the best idea I was able to come up with.

The Monsta data came from the xtremesystems site and was allocated in the same manner as above. Finally the fan data came from the results in Martins fan orientation test linked above. And yes, all data is based upon a "High End Cooling System" with a target Delta T of 10C. If your case and or budget can not sustain a system capable of doing 10C, then try the following:

-Divide the recommended amount of rad space for a high end system at 10C by 1.5 for a Delta T of 15C for a Mid to High End Cooling System

-Divide the recommended amount of rad space for a high end system at 10C by 2.0 for a Delta T of 20C and Mid Range Cooling System

-Divide the recommended amount of rad space for a high end system at 10C by 2.5 for a Delta T of 25C for a Mid to Entry Level Cooling System

-Divide the recommended amount of rad space for a high end system at 10C by 3.0 for a Delta T of 30C for a Entry Level Cooling System



Again, I sat down to design my loop looking for 60+% of the heat load in push / pull with 1250 rpm fans .... taking that 500 watt target and dividing it by 85 watts (140mm UT60 @ 1250 rpm), it would seem that I'd need about 5 x 140mm worth of Rad which was perfect for the Entrhoo Primo case I had and the numbers said I'd get 64% of my 475 watt target.

But I wanted to see how well I'd do with just one set of fans (53% of load) and I'm doing just fine with a 8.4C delta T at 1200 rpm and case filters removed....and 12-14C with fans capped at 850 rpm and filters back in. At this point, the only reason I think will make me add fans is curiosity. GPUs peak at 39C under Furmark @ 1200 / no filters and 44c with filters and 850 rpm cap. RoG Bench brings the CPU to 74C at 4.6C tho a new BIOS upgrade has currently left that unstable at my original voltages and haven't decided whether to re-tweak or roll back. Adding a 3rd 240mm rad would in push would take me to about 80%

So again, I hope peeps find it useful, and this will give me something to refer to instead of retyping snippets when needed to answer peeps questions.

The resultant spreadsheet has the aforementioned data including:

a) Watts Allocation for 120, 240, 360, 480, 140, 280 and 420 radiators for fan speeds of 1000, 1250, 1400, 1800 and 2200 rpm
b) Heat Load Generator
c) Heal Allocation Table
d) Case Air Flow table
e) Miscellaneous Data


AquacoolEstimator.XLS 38k .XLS file

Please advise of any errors or confusion and I will try and get fixed ASAP.

XSPCEstimator.XLS 33k .XLS file

EKEstimator.XLS 29k .XLS file

SwiftechEstimator.XLS 29k .XLS file

HardwareLabsEstimator.XLS 32k .XLS file
Attached Files
File Type: xls AquacoolEstimator.XLS (37.5 KB, 1547 views)
File Type: xls XSPCEstimator.XLS (33.0 KB, 683 views)
File Type: xls EKEstimator.XLS (29.0 KB, 1026 views)
File Type: xls SwiftechEstimator.XLS (29.0 KB, 365 views)
File Type: xls HardwareLabsEstimator.XLS (31.5 KB, 708 views)

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post #2 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-09-2014, 02:12 PM
 
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That is AWESOME JackNaylorPE. +Rep

While I'm not using Alphacool's anymore it does give me a jump off point/estimate for some other radiator types (namely a 30mm 480 radiator).

So it looks like my build will be able to roughly dissipate 291 (30mm 480 P/P) + 219 (60mm 360 P/P) + 125 (60mm 240 P) or 635 watts of heat (using 1200 RPM fans).

That should be good enough for a 3770K and 2 GTX 780's, all overclocked. biggrin.gif


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post #3 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-09-2014, 02:14 PM
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Great guide, with great being the emphasis! Saving this thread for sure. I'd even go so far as to say this should be Sticky'ed

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post #4 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-09-2014, 02:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morencyam View Post

Great guide, with great being the emphasis! Saving this thread for sure. I'd even go so far as to say this should be Sticky'ed

If it got expanded to include other radiators, like say the XSPC, Phobya, Koolance and Swiftech's (to name a few), that would be a truly awesome addition.


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post #5 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-11-2014, 11:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Well......


1. Martin and ExtremeSystems did all the hard work..... I just did the math.

2. The main reason I did it was just about every sticky has the "rule of thumb" and while adequate and useful as a "rule of thumb", it just doesn't cut it to do any real planning. I just couldn't get past using the same rules for a 133 watt and a 333 watt GPU .....especially when that differences gets compounded 2,3 and 4 times with SLI/CF. Didn't wanna fions myself picking case based upon the rule of thumb and then finding out my rads and case were undersized.

3. OK, you nudged me .... the reason that I did the Alphacool line was that a) ....martin had results for 3 of the 4 models and b) they were at the "top of the charts"......I'll take a look at what's available for what and see what I can do.

4. I create a lot of spreadsheet based 3rd party tools for a game called "The Saga of Ryzom" ..... it's a 10 year old MMO that for whatever reason has an average player age of 35+. I never was into multiplayer anything before of since and started it only because my then 11 year son was down in the dumps cause he didn't get into WoW. My company did a lot of beta testing for memory managers and technical programs and I used the resume to get "me" into the SoR alpha / beta figuring once "in", I'd turn it over to him .... well he played for about 6 months and 10 years later, I'm still popping in now and then. But I ran outta tools to make for them and so I need another project smile.gif. So if ya have specific suggestions or know of other data sources than Martins, please advise.

** BTW, if ya looking for a social game with a great community w/o a lot of tweenage testoserone driven behaviors, Id suggest giving SoR a try.....free till level 125 ..... send a private message to FyrosFreddy , Misatey or Azad when ya arrive ..... they are neutral faction payers who can give ya clue in to the factions, what they are about etc. and what guilds might fit ya play style.**

5. If anyone has any insight on why "everything seems to work" w/ just asking the rads to handle 50-60% of the heat load, I'm all ears. I expected significantly less than 100% but not that low.



Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

So it looks like my build will be able to roughly dissipate 291 (30mm 480 P/P) + 219 (60mm 360 P/P) + 125 (60mm 240 P) or 635 watts of heat (using 1200 RPM fans).

That should be good enough for a 3770K and 2 GTX 780's, all overclocked. biggrin.gif

Well.... I have a 4770K (4.6 Ghz) and two 780s (25+% on core / 20+% on mem) and I'm at 53% (508 watts) .... so you're way ahead of me and my delta T under Furmark is 8.4C with 420 + 280 and 5 phanteks rad fans at 1200 rpm......I'd say ya golden with a bout 80%.


EDIT:

1. XSPC Rads Added .... no data for AX
2. EK Rads Added
3. Swiftech Rads Added
4. Hardware Labs Added

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post #6 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-12-2014, 01:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE View Post

EDIT:

1. XSPC Rads Added .... no data for AX
2. EK Rads Added
3. Swiftech Rads Added
4. Hardware Labs Added

Most excellent! thumb.gif


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post #7 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-12-2014, 09:10 PM
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Most awesome indeed. Nice work mate.

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post #8 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-12-2014, 09:48 PM
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Nice work!

Although, I've learned in time just how hot the 3930K runs. I now have my machine in a small office and I can not leave the door closed when gaming or it turns into a sauna.

This old chart I found does't seem all that far off, at 4.5Ghz and on upward heat takes off sharply. Between 4 and 4.8 Ghz, you're talking over double the heat.devil.gif

wattvfre.jpg

Glad to see the general emphasis in estimating the heat load, overclock plays a huge role as well. thumb.gif

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post #9 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 01:57 PM - Thread Starter
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You did all the work .... I just did some math smile.gif

Since you been at it so long, and as we have discussed before, would much appreciate your insight as to just what % of the heat load should be expected to be carried by the rads.... for example, I can see tubing accounting for some % but that % won't be static as when ya go from 1 GFX card to 2, 3, and 4 as the total length of tubing won't change much adding 1-3 sets of crystal links.

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post #10 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-13-2014, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE View Post

You did all the work .... I just did some math smile.gif

Since you been at it so long, and as we have discussed before, would much appreciate your insight as to just what % of the heat load should be expected to be carried by the rads.... for example, I can see tubing accounting for some % but that % won't be static as when ya go from 1 GFX card to 2, 3, and 4 as the total length of tubing won't change much adding 1-3 sets of crystal links.

The amount of tubing wont, but your ΔTemps sure will. XD

You may feel popular, but you will never be as legendary as this thread!

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