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The best PWM rad fans (going to be very exact spec needs)

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post #31 of 41 (permalink) Old 08-12-2014, 04:49 PM
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So that it helps everyone;

The issue with daisy chaining a lot of PWM fans onto a single PWM header varies from one fan model to another, and one mobo to another.

What happens is that as more and more fans are added, the portion of the PWM pulse that's supposed to be low, theoretically 0V, it starts rising above the 0V level by anywhere from a few millivolts to several tenths of a volt.

The more it rises above 0v, once it gets to a few tenths, then the fan doesn't effectively see that as being off time, and so if you had a pulse that was fully on for 20% of the time, but didn't go close enough to 0V for the other 80% of the time, then the fan would see it as a pulse much wider than 20% and not be able to slow down to where it should be at 20%.

The Corsair PWM fans are the very worst in this respect . . . .

Once you have more than about 5 or 6, depending on the mobo, you progressively loose the ability to run them at lower speeds.

Once you add a few more, and they all run at max, regardless of where you set the PWM percentage.


Running 6 or eight PWM fans, any PWM fan but Corsair that is, for a rad setup, from a single header should never cause a problem . . . .

But once you get to where you're talking about 12, or way more, then the "Corsair Syndrome" has to be watched out for.

Keep in mind also that while the CPU and CPU Opt headers are both PWM, they are not likely separately driven, so that splitting the number of fans across both of them, is not electrically different than having them all on either one. . . . . Though that too may well vary by mobo


Those Swiftech splitters work fine. I've not seen any issues inherent in them.

Guys who complained about them failed to understand that it wasn't a splitter issue, but that they just make it easy to daisy chain enough fans so that the actual number of fan PWM connections becomes the issue when the controller can't handle them all.


Darlene

Cool good to know however 1 thing while i agree there on the same circuit it is very electrically different from what I understand the swiftech pulls zero power from the board it pulls pulse that is all nothing more. A daisy chain would be relaying on the board to not only give the signal but also will rely on it for all the fans power in case of the splitter this doesnt happen all fans are powered by the molex.

Also in the case with a daisy chain the header will see all the incoming rpms as one I have read lots of problems with fan speeds using a daisy chain as instead of the header seeing 1 set of incoming rpms it sees 2/3/4 ect depending on the number of fans I am pretty sure this is the issue of whcih you speak however the swiftech splitter fixes this issue by providing only 1 fans rpm signal out to the board and then incoming splits across. A daisy chain will not do this in that environment all fans will be giving info all at once back to the board and this will undoubtedly give the board faulty readings. I am going to to look more into this and thanks for letting me know about it I have seen quite a few people daisy chain these splitters together on the same header and not mention any issues with lower speeds and they had alot of fans. I am going to look more into this issue and will let everyone hear here know.

Thanks very much for your clear and concise explanation to the issue smile.gif.


My explanation about how the CPU/CPU-Opt headers work was regarding the PWM signal line only.

I didn't expect any loading on the 12V pin at all. . . . Powering the fans directly from the PSU is what the Swiftech splitters are for, . . . well that, and connecting all the PWM lines together.

My point was that a lot of connections on a PWM channel can overload the PWM control circuitry so that it doesn't control properly, and the first signs of overloading are that it won't slow down as much as it did with just 1 fan.

The Swiftech splitters are properly designed so that only the #1 FAN header sends the tach signal back thru the 4 pin PWM/tach connector.

Many other splitter PCB's, MODDIY's for example, stupidly connect all the tech pins together, and have to be modified, cutting a trace on the PCB, so that only the first one carries the tach signal so that they give the correct rpm readings.


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post #32 of 41 (permalink) Old 08-12-2014, 05:36 PM
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I must have missed how I did not pay attention to her. I value her opinion and didn't mean to be rude apparently it was taken that way but it wasn't my intent im really confused why you even made this comment. FYI I know full well who she is she has helped me in the past and i wasn't trying to be mean or rude sorry it came out in a way that seemed like it.

Also "probably you will not achieve your goals" is really uncalled for I am in no way a noob nor don't have a clue in what I'm doing the point of this thread was simply I don't know every fan on the market and people may know of ones I don't / used fans I have not that is what the intent of the thread is. You also don't even really know what my goal is that has shown apparent I asked for PWM for a reason because I already know I want PWM and how I'm going to control them.

She was not in the wrong as she was trying to help provide me with info that I may not have already planned for and that is appreciated very much however I have planned for it and you can kind of see that in my comment IE why she said what she did so your entire reply makes entirely no sense. Even more so when you add in the fact that many and I mean many people run 23+ fans without that overpriced controller.

Well i didn't say that you´eve been rude or something like that , i just don't know you and i don't know your acknowledgement in the subject , so it was just to get your attention on Diva because she knows a lot on the subject wink.gif
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post #33 of 41 (permalink) Old 08-12-2014, 07:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by IT Diva View Post

My explanation about how the CPU/CPU-Opt headers work was regarding the PWM signal line only.

I didn't expect any loading on the 12V pin at all. . . . Powering the fans directly from the PSU is what the Swiftech splitters are for, . . . well that, and connecting all the PWM lines together.

My point was that a lot of connections on a PWM channel can overload the PWM control circuitry so that it doesn't control properly, and the first signs of overloading are that it won't slow down as much as it did with just 1 fan.

The Swiftech splitters are properly designed so that only the #1 FAN header sends the tach signal back thru the 4 pin PWM/tach connector.

Many other splitter PCB's, MODDIY's for example, stupidly connect all the tech pins together, and have to be modified, cutting a trace on the PCB, so that only the first one carries the tach signal so that they give the correct rpm readings.


Darlene
So in your opinion Could 12 fans be controlled off of 2 said splitters without issue? so the top rad and bottom rad? Is the 1 line in vs 12 enough to combat the overload to a degree or is the out signal all that you were taking into account already?

@ngzb Well then my apologizes I took it the wrong way. I know a little bit about the subject but im surely no expert and defiantly could learn more as IT Diva has shown me and Im always glad to learn new things smile.gif

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post #34 of 41 (permalink) Old 08-13-2014, 02:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberlocc View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by IT Diva View Post

My explanation about how the CPU/CPU-Opt headers work was regarding the PWM signal line only.

I didn't expect any loading on the 12V pin at all. . . . Powering the fans directly from the PSU is what the Swiftech splitters are for, . . . well that, and connecting all the PWM lines together.

My point was that a lot of connections on a PWM channel can overload the PWM control circuitry so that it doesn't control properly, and the first signs of overloading are that it won't slow down as much as it did with just 1 fan.

The Swiftech splitters are properly designed so that only the #1 FAN header sends the tach signal back thru the 4 pin PWM/tach connector.

Many other splitter PCB's, MODDIY's for example, stupidly connect all the tech pins together, and have to be modified, cutting a trace on the PCB, so that only the first one carries the tach signal so that they give the correct rpm readings.


Darlene
So in your opinion Could 12 fans be controlled off of 2 said splitters without issue? so the top rad and bottom rad? Is the 1 line in vs 12 enough to combat the overload to a degree or is the out signal all that you were taking into account already?

@ngzb Well then my apologizes I took it the wrong way. I know a little bit about the subject but im surely no expert and defiantly could learn more as IT Diva has shown me and Im always glad to learn new things smile.gif




When you put 12 fans on the 2 splitters, and connect the primary splitter to a CPU fan header, the header still sees it as 12 PWM loads . . . . The splitter is not an active component that "boosts" the PWM signal. . . . it just connects all the PWM pins together.

That said . . . as long as it's not the Corsair fans, 12 fans daisy chained on 2 Swiftech splitters should not be a problem for most higher end motherboards.

I'm particularly familiar with the issue with the Corsair fans because it's become a big problem for Aquaero 6 owners who bought the AQ6 because it has 4 PWM capable channels expecting it to work with Corsair fans.


The issue is that Corsair does not follow the Intel PWM standard with their fans, since they designed them primarily to work with their own Corsair Link system. . .

They do market them however, as PWM, and that implies that they should behave like all the other PWM fans out there . .

But they Do Not.


That said about the Corsair fans and the usual means of PWM control . . . .

You may want to check the Corsair forums, and see how many can be controlled from the Corsair Link system, if you think that may work better for you than a bay controller. . . .

Large builds with a lot of fans/rads really cry out for, and benefit from, more sophisticated fan control than you can get from just the mobo.

The Corsair fans are black, have a max rpm of ~2400, and depending on the controller, can slow down to ~800 easily.

They move good air, have a decent static pressure, are rather noisy at high speeds, but become very acceptable as you slow them down a bit.

Accept for their control problems, at least outside of Corsair Link, they'd probably be exactly what you're looking for . . . . and the 2-packs are ~$28, so not too expensive either.



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post #35 of 41 (permalink) Old 08-13-2014, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by IT Diva View Post

When you put 12 fans on the 2 splitters, and connect the primary splitter to a CPU fan header, the header still sees it as 12 PWM loads . . . . The splitter is not an active component that "boosts" the PWM signal. . . . it just connects all the PWM pins together.

That said . . . as long as it's not the Corsair fans, 12 fans daisy chained on 2 Swiftech splitters should not be a problem for most higher end motherboards.

I'm particularly familiar with the issue with the Corsair fans because it's become a big problem for Aquaero 6 owners who bought the AQ6 because it has 4 PWM capable channels expecting it to work with Corsair fans.


The issue is that Corsair does not follow the Intel PWM standard with their fans, since they designed them primarily to work with their own Corsair Link system. . .

They do market them however, as PWM, and that implies that they should behave like all the other PWM fans out there . .

But they Do Not.


That said about the Corsair fans and the usual means of PWM control . . . .

You may want to check the Corsair forums, and see how many can be controlled from the Corsair Link system, if you think that may work better for you than a bay controller. . . .

Large builds with a lot of fans/rads really cry out for, and benefit from, more sophisticated fan control than you can get from just the mobo.

The Corsair fans are black, have a max rpm of ~2400, and depending on the controller, can slow down to ~800 easily.

They move good air, have a decent static pressure, are rather noisy at high speeds, but become very acceptable as you slow them down a bit.

Accept for their control problems, at least outside of Corsair Link, they'd probably be exactly what you're looking for . . . . and the 2-packs are ~$28, so not too expensive either.



Darlene

Cool thanks darlene. Yes i intended to use corsair sp120qe on my thin rads however 1 of the rads is a 420 rad so corsair wont work and there ugly and dont macth my black out build that grey is an eye sore so for the entire case they wont cut it in the floor of my 900d in the front they will be there.

Ya the link does link nice and there is a new one suppose to come out any day which i will defiantly have my eye on aqueros are cool just really really expensive i just cant justify paying that mind of money for it if it was 100 or even 150 maybe but 250 no way in heck

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post #36 of 41 (permalink) Old 08-13-2014, 10:27 AM
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What about the Aquaero 5 LT USB controller. Doesn't take up a bay, is controlled solely from software, and is significantly cheaper at ~$75

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post #37 of 41 (permalink) Old 08-13-2014, 11:14 AM
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I use and recommend Blacknoise NB-eLoop B12-P with multiple Swiftech 8-way pwm splitters. All of the fans run fine with no issues. RPM's are gauged from the first splitter header.

2 issues to deal with though - white blades which can be removed but painted, and price.

Sorry if I missed anything or if this has already been referenced but I haven't read the entire thread.

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post #38 of 41 (permalink) Old 08-13-2014, 01:59 PM - Thread Starter
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I use and recommend Blacknoise NB-eLoop B12-P with multiple Swiftech 8-way pwm splitters. All of the fans run fine with no issues. RPM's are gauged from the first splitter header.

2 issues to deal with though - white blades which can be removed but painted, and price.

Sorry if I missed anything or if this has already been referenced but I haven't read the entire thread.
Painting blades destroys the fans balance and then you might as well have cheaper not as good fans as they wont perform right you never paint a fan blade.

morencyam - I will defiantly look into that one didn't know they had one for 75 but first I want to see how the corsair link mini turns out as the lighting control on it is handy.

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post #39 of 41 (permalink) Old 08-13-2014, 02:02 PM
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I am going to be making a PWM booster for my Corsair's. Hoping it will work, if not, oh well



http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=700653
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post #40 of 41 (permalink) Old 08-13-2014, 02:03 PM - Thread Starter
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I am going to be making a PWM booster for my Corsair's. Hoping it will work, if not, oh well



http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=700653
I theory it should work let me know how it goes

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