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post #11 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-04-2019, 02:32 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by EKJake View Post
I feel like my fans have always span at max speed briefly on boot and always thought it was related to the motherboard or inherent system designs. It's not something I'm very knowledgeable about, but I'll do my best to help find a solution if you haven't found one yet.
It's part of the POST operation. Nothing wrong with the Vardars based on that logic.

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post #12 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-07-2019, 12:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by skupples View Post
isn't the ramping on boot an inherent system thing, due to getting power before settings click on?

also - doesn't aquaero include a delay start option?
In this case, no. As I stated above, I tested the behavior after boot, by disconnecting and reconnecting a fan from the splitter. I ramps up to full speed and then comes back down to the PWM setting.
Aquaero includes a start boost function, but because it is working in PWM and the Vardar ignores this signal until after the full spinup, it doesn't work. It would have been helpful if the boost function could be set as voltage controlled but keep the fans after that as PWM controlled.

Quote: Originally Posted by EKJake View Post
I feel like my fans have always span at max speed briefly on boot and always thought it was related to the motherboard or inherent system designs. It's not something I'm very knowledgeable about, but I'll do my best to help find a solution if you haven't found one yet.
Thank you for the support. It can be easily tested with excluding the underlying system by disconnecting and reconnecting the fan after boot.

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post #13 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-07-2019, 02:21 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by vvv850 View Post
In this case, no. As I stated above, I tested the behavior after boot, by disconnecting and reconnecting a fan from the splitter. I ramps up to full speed and then comes back down to the PWM setting.
Aquaero includes a start boost function, but because it is working in PWM and the Vardar ignores this signal until after the full spinup, it doesn't work. It would have been helpful if the boost function could be set as voltage controlled but keep the fans after that as PWM controlled.-------- Thank you for the support. It can be easily tested with excluding the underlying system by disconnecting and reconnecting the fan after boot.
Fans are NOT hotswappable. Why would you do that? You're pushing electricty through everything on the MB. Pulling fans or any component(for that matter) from a motherboard could lead to issues that bork the connection you unplug from at minimum. At worst you could not only fry your board, but bork the component you unplugged from it. Doing this kind of thing makes little to no sense.

And YES that is exactly what is SUPPOSED to happen during POST. Your system is making sure that everything is in working order going through the POST process. Power On Self Test exists for a reason.

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post #14 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-07-2019, 02:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by Ceadderman View Post
Fans are NOT hotswappable. Why would you do that? You're pushing electricty through everything on the MB. Pulling fans or any component(for that matter) from a motherboard could lead to issues that bork the connection you unplug from at minimum. At worst you could not only fry your board, but bork the component you unplugged from it. Doing this kind of thing makes little to no sense.

And YES that is exactly what is SUPPOSED to happen during POST. Your system is making sure that everything is in working order going through the POST process. Power On Self Test exists for a reason.

~Ceadder
Never have I seen such utter nonsense.

First of all I was speaking about Aquaero and not the MB,
Second, reconnecting a FAN to a FAN header, be it on the MB or Aquaero does nothing catastrophic to the source. The warnings from all manufacturers are to mitigate short circuits and other problems from misaligned connection.
Third, it was purely for testing and thus coming to the conclusion that indeed the EVO Vardars ignore PWM signal during spinup
Fourth, during POST the MB checks and alerts you about fan speeds IF you have set up an alarm for the specific fan header.

Anyway, I have tested the gray Vardars and they do not behave as the EVOs. I believe that the EVO do this in order to achieve the low RPM on any platform.

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post #15 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-07-2019, 03:09 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by vvv850 View Post
Never have I seen such utter nonsense.

First of all I was speaking about Aquaero and not the MB,
Second, reconnecting a FAN to a FAN header, be it on the MB or Aquaero does nothing catastrophic to the source. The warnings from all manufacturers are to mitigate short circuits and other problems from misaligned connection.
Third, it was purely for testing and thus coming to the conclusion that indeed the EVO Vardars ignore PWM signal during spinup
Fourth, during POST the MB checks and alerts you about fan speeds IF you have set up an alarm for the specific fan header.

Anyway, I have tested the gray Vardars and they do not behave as the EVOs. I believe that the EVO do this in order to achieve the low RPM on any platform.
Don't say you weren't warned. I realize I was looking at this from a MB only perspective and not a controller perspective. But it's not an advisable process you use to get the outcome you did. Are you connected to the CPU through a PWM only header? I have hubs that have the feature and unless that feature is used, any fan connected in the hub will run @ 100percent.

I have the 500-2200 ER EVO fans and they all ramp up to 100percent during POST. They then go back to board setting. I believe my low setting is @ 750rpm. So yes unless you got a locked speed variant, I seriously doubt that the PWM feature doesn't work. I mean yes the fans could be bad out of the box, but I have a hard time believing there is a performance discrepancy between the Gray Blade EVO and the ER EVO.

That said, if you were to pull a component from your MB while it's powered, it can cause shorting of the connection if you do so. I would never advise anyone to do that. And where my concern arose.

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post #16 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-07-2019, 11:54 PM - Thread Starter
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To keep it simple since it seems that we got lost in translation somehow.

I noticed that the Vardar ER line from 2017 were always starting at 100%. At first I thought that it was the MB (the Asus boards do this) but then I moved them to AQ. Unfortunately they behaved the same.

To be able to see if it was the fan itself doing this and not the underlying controller, I disconnected and reconnected the fan while the system was working and the controller was sending the PWM signal that I configured. The Varder ER did the same thing. (the gray Vardar behave as expected, they follow the PWM setting from the beginning)

I then asked the forum if the new line of Vardar EVOs behave in a similar fashion and it seems they do. That is: they ignore the PWM signal for the first few seconds after they receive power and only then they conform to the PWM setting. They do this so they can achieve around 400RPM minimum speed. It's basically an integrated start-boost.

This behaviour, unfortunately, poses some problems when you want to use a capable controller like the AQ:
- you cannot have a passively cooled system when not under load (by using a set point controller without holding minimum speed)
- if you try it, every time the controller sends other PWM signals > 0%, the fans will spin up at full speed thus defeating the purpose of a silent PC (having 16 fans all ramp up is not a beautiful symphony)
- you stress the fan controller outputs unnecessarily. 6 x Vardar at spin up go over 3Amps. If they would have behaved as a standard PWM fan, you could have doubled that number on a single header without any issues.
- the only way to achieve a slow ramp up is to define the fan header as voltage controlled. This way the fans won't have the power to do their start up routine.

As a side note: I've hot swapped fans a reasonable amount of times due to different reasons and I have never encountered a problem (most server platforms use hot swappable fans and the only difference is that they have a slot and guide the fan). 2 things you should mind: properly align the header and plug before connection and plug it quick. It is not the same thing as hotswapping a PCI card, RAM, etc.

If you are worried that something might break doing this, but still want to test the Vardar EVO behaviour, use your MB fan control software and turn off then on the header and see what the Vardar does (under BIOS or OS, doesn't matter)


Last edited by vvv850; 05-07-2019 at 11:58 PM.
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post #17 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-08-2019, 12:11 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by vvv850 View Post
To keep it simple since it seems that we got lost in translation somehow.

I noticed that the Vardar ER line from 2017 were always starting at 100%. At first I thought that it was the MB (the Asus boards do this) but then I moved them to AQ. Unfortunately they behaved the same.

To be able to see if it was the fan itself doing this and not the underlying controller, I disconnected and reconnected the fan while the system was working and the controller was sending the PWM signal that I configured. The Varder ER did the same thing. (the gray Vardar behave as expected, they follow the PWM setting from the beginning)

I then asked the forum if the new line of Vardar EVOs behave in a similar fashion and it seems they do. That is: they ignore the PWM signal for the first few seconds after they receive power and only then they conform to the PWM setting. They do this so they can achieve around 400RPM minimum speed. It's basically an integrated start-boost.

This behaviour, unfortunately, poses some problems when you want to use a capable controller like the AQ:
- you cannot have a passively cooled system when not under load (by using a set point controller without holding minimum speed)
- if you try it, every time the controller sends other PWM signals > 0%, the fans will spin up at full speed thus defeating the purpose of a silent PC (having 16 fans all ramp up is not a beautiful symphony)
- you stress the fan controller outputs unnecessarily. 6 x Vardar at spin up go over 3Amps. If they would have behaved as a standard PWM fan, you could have doubled that number on a single header without any issues.
- the only way to achieve a slow ramp up is to define the fan header as voltage controlled. This way the fans won't have the power to do their start up routine.

As a side note: I've hot swapped fans a reasonable amount of times due to different reasons and I have never encountered a problem (most server platforms use hot swappable fans and the only difference is that they have a slot and guide the fan). 2 things you should mind: properly align the header and plug before connection and plug it quick. It is not the same thing as hotswapping a PCI card, RAM, etc.
Ahhh gotcha. I think I've covered your method enough so I won't continue to beat the dead horse. And I do agree that it's not the same as doing so with PCI(e), RAM or SATA connections. You already know I wouldn't suggest it.

As far as the cacophony of fans upon startup, I really don't consider 15 seconds of Vardar Jazz that big of an issue. If nothing else, I simply leave my system on 24/7 to avoid the issue altogether. But I get it. Some Enthusiasts like their peace and quiet as well as their sanity.

Quote: Originally Posted by vvv850 View Post
If you are worried that something might break doing this, but still want to test the Vardar EVO behaviour, use your MB fan control software and turn off then on the header and see what the Vardar does (under BIOS or OS, doesn't matter)
I would recommend doing it this way every time. Sure saves unnecessary wear and tear on the peripheral as well as the board.

~Ceadder

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post #18 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-08-2019, 12:17 PM - Thread Starter
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To me, it's not even that (noise related), but after two years of having this setup, my AQ6 current sensor is basically worn out. It cannot sustain 6 fans on the header while they spin up to full speed because of high current.

I'm the beginning it was fine with 10 per channel, then after a while with 8 and then with 6. Now 5. After the spin up boost, 6 fans only pull 1.4 A at full speed.

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post #19 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-08-2019, 12:37 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by vvv850 View Post
To me, it's not even that (noise related), but after two years of having this setup, my AQ6 current sensor is basically worn out. It cannot sustain 6 fans on the header while they spin up to full speed because of high current.

I'm the beginning it was fine with 10 per channel, then after a while with 8 and then with 6. Now 5. After the spin up boost, 6 fans only pull 1.4 A at full speed.
I think that's your answer right there maybe?

Like that maybe over time your AQ6 has lost electrical integrity? Are you running or have you tried to run 10 of the original Vards in place of the ER? Is your system set up on an UPS or is it on a surge protection device? If it's not on either I would be surprised but not beyond the realm of possibility. If not then it could be the reason you are seeing such a degradation over one channel. Is this just the one channel or does it happen on the others?

Cause @ 21.6w/10 ERs' that indicates the possibility that that channel is limited or maybe you're controller is on its way out. Now way your 30wpc cabaple connection should only be able to handle ~11w of power. Maybe instead of looking for an answer with the fan, maybe you're better served with diagnosing the issue with the controller first? I could be wrong but I doubt the fan or number of fans is the issue short of the number that can reside on one 30w channel. :

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post #20 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-08-2019, 04:39 PM - Thread Starter
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It's not the fan header or electrical capability of the controller itself, but the current monitoring chip (mine errors out while the Vardars "boot up" even on channels that do not have load, only pump PWM signal). I've confirmed this with Aqua Computer support and they've seen issues with Vardars that behave this way.

From an EE perspective I do not see why having an UPS (unless its a Double Conversion Online type - which aren't for home use) has anything to do with this topic. A typical Line Interactive UPS has 1-2 steps buck-boost and doesn't do much when power fluctuates (it also goes through 0V and relies on the PSU to hold up power until it switches to battery). I think you are stuck on electrical problems generated by me disconnecting and reconnecting the fans

The reason I opened this topic was to know if the EVOs behave the same way in case I decide to replace my fans.

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