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EK Vardar 120ER EVO start up behavior

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post #31 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-10-2019, 12:38 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Ceadderman View Post
Fans are NOT hotswappable. Why would you do that? You're pushing electricty through everything on the MB. Pulling fans or any component(for that matter) from a motherboard could lead to issues that bork the connection you unplug from at minimum. At worst you could not only fry your board, but bork the component you unplugged from it. Doing this kind of thing makes little to no sense.
You can't hot swap fans? I've done it, seen many others do it, never seen or heard of an issue...
Saying that I don't think I've done it with 4 pin fans, only 3 pin... is there some new issue?

Last edited by anti-clockwize; 05-10-2019 at 12:45 AM.
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post #32 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-10-2019, 02:59 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Ceadderman View Post
Which Aquaro 6 do you own?

I looked up the only one PPCs sells(Aquaro 6XT... or XLT?) and it's supposedly rated for 30 wpc. I did the math for the Watts per ER 120 and that was 2.16w. No way you're hitting 30w per channel with 10 per channel. Or the configuration you contacted Customer Support with. Not even with an EK fan as they are rated at .18A maximum draw. Ten ER 120s are 21.6w. You should easily be able to fit ten of them on one channel. I'd be extremely surprised if the max capability of any 30wpc controller could only run 30w across the PCB. Especially one that is as well known as the Aquaro. Shoot a Sunbeam Rheosmart 6 can run 30wpc.

I call BS on the support tech that suggests that it's a flaw with EK fans. Maybe that is what the fellow learned, but I believe he's not being honest with you in order to avoid a warranty exchange. It shouldn't matter what fan you put on the device, only its rated Amperage and that you didn't overload the channel with excessive wattage.

And of course if you removed fans against the recommendation of their company. I believe one should ALWAYS shut down their system when installing or removing anything that uses power. I know you don't believe it matters, but what's it hurt if you power the system down and degauss the power from it before doing so? At the very least, you know you won't muff anything by doing so and you won't have any niggling feelings making the hair on the back of your neck stand up.

But 16 total fans across 3 out of 4 channels shouldn't have caused your Aquaro to come up lame. Four .18A rated fans is 8.6w. Six are 12.96w and the same 12.96w for the other channel. No way your D5 is throwing enough current through the 4th channel to overload the spectrum. My D5 isn't handy atm, but I believe that it uses ~10w as an educated rough estimate.

So...

8.6w +
13w +
13w +
10w =

44.6w total.

Using your words here, you had ten fans on one channel.

No matter how you slice it, that controller should eaasily be able to absorb 44.6w without an issue. Apparently you likely caught a bad one and didn't realize it until it was too late.

Of course this could all be moot if you have a different Aquaro than the one I looked up and the WPC was less than 20wpc. Cause that's the only way I see that type of degradation occurring over that period of time.

~Ceadder
Hi there

Assuming you don't have Aquaero and EK 120ER or Vardar

Aquaero have rated fan headers 30W per channel or 2.5A per channel for Aquaero 6 and for 5 I think it is around 1.65A, its doesn't matter if fans pulls only 3.3W or less but if they pull more than 2.5A, Aquaero will trip overcurrent protection and fans would spin to maximum speed

Maximum draw can be 0.18A on start up draw I think is higher, similarly if you ever run Gentle Typhoon which on start up will draw 0.36A I think

@VSG or @doyll would probably have more information on fans start up amperage

Similar issue have been with BeQuiet Silent Wings 3 which have strange PWM curve/controller with Aquaero as these fans doesn't follow Intel PWM spec

You are mixing wattage and amperage of fans

D5 and power draw, come one man you know almost every pump is powered by PSU not fan header, you are using fan header for PWM readings or PWM control but not actual powering, D5 pump power draw is around 18-24W I think

I'm running on one header on my Aquaero 6XT 18*Noiseblocker BlackSilent Pro PL2 and at 100% amperage for all these fans I think is close to 1.55A and similar amperage I see with 6*Corsair ML120 at 100% speed, on other header I'm running 8*Phanteks PH-F120MP with 3*Noiseblocker eLoop

Hope this helps

Thanks, Jura
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post #33 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-10-2019, 03:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by jura11 View Post
Hi there

Aquaero will trip overcurrent protection and fans would spin to maximum speed
Just a quick correction. Aquaero will power off the header (0 V) in case it detects an overcurrent trip.

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post #34 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-10-2019, 02:41 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by vvv850 View Post
You have a way of not reading what was already written. Don't know if it's lack of respect for other posters or just ignorance. Anyway, you are really starting to get on my nerves by insinuating foul play on my side. I told you that I understand your opinion regarding hot swapping fans, but professional experience and practical experience are on my side. Not gonna continue on this subject further.

Back on topic.

First and foremost, I've told you that I MEASURED the current draw of six Vardars ER on SPINUP. Measuring for me means breaking out the calibrated Fluke and logging the readings. What I found was the 6 Vardars pull 3.1-3.5A for around 1 second.

Second, your math is based on max power draw while they are already spinning. A motor tends to multiply the nominal current while starting up.

Lastly, as the title of this topic says, I am talking about startup problems of the fans.

What really gets me about your post is that you seem confident about what you are saying without even reading what others have said. To give you an example:



The D5 G2, at least, has a nominal power draw of 23W. Please observe the term NOMINAL. While a pump starts up it can draw 2-7x the nominal current. AAAnnnnnnddddd, I told you that my pump is not drawing power from the AQ only PWM signal. Pumps now don't even come with fan connectors for power.

Oh, not to forget, I have an AQ6 Pro.
I apologize if you feel like I am calling you out for anything. It's not my nature to start needless arguments with anybody. My only concern was helping you, not in tearing you down or mocking you. I will simply chalk up our differences in communication to our languages (as English is my native language and likely not yours) and regional differences.

I never said that you were taking the p!zz out of AC. In fact I said the opposite. Like the tech is taking the p!zz out of you.

Now, as to the technical concerns. Here in the US, electrical product cannot be sold in this country if the peak numbers do not bear out. Meaning EK cannot put .18A on a fan that increases to .28A at any time over the cycle of that product. Just can't. That's misrepresentation and fraud. I went to EK's site and they have two versions of the ER Amperages, 2200rpm and slower all specifically state that they are .18A power draw and the max wattage of 2.16w(I did this last night and am working without notes today) iirc. 3000rpm fans shows 5.4w of continuous duty and I didn't pay attention to Amps for that as it gives me an idea of where EK may have fudged. That isn't saying you're wrong, but is showing where you MAY be mistaken. I do believe you FLUKED your fans and I do believe your Watts were increased over their stated peak numbers. I simply chalk that up to poor QC at the factory.

It means one of two things occurred @ their end and first thing and unlikely(in my mind anyway) is that the label on the back of the hub is not the correct one. That certainly is a possibility. The guy at the bench doing the testing and labeling procedure could have started his day with a brain splitting hangover and simply could've reached for the correct label, missed and grabbed the wrong one by mistake. Mistakes happen.

OR

The pcb of the fan(s) that you own are of the 5.4w variety but the rest of the internals are of the 2.16w variety. This would downclock the Voltage to be roughly what you say you got for peak. And this I believe is more than spot on versus the label mixup possibility.

So yes I guess there are issues with your ERs'. But NO, I do not believe that EK is the only goblin here. AC products should by default come with an overvoltage alarm of some sort. A blinking light or a piezo alarm that would notify the user of the issue. They charge a bloody mint for their products. ~$300 for their LED CPU blocks and ~$150-$200 for their LED display controllers. And the controllers are bare minimum products that hit you in your wallet for adding the bells and whistles to a unit thats retail is $150-$200. A lot of people may blow me off on this since I don't own an Aquaro, but that's their right. They can say whatever they want.

I apologize for simply not going back to the post where you said what model. My bad. But I will continue to rely on asking questions to get to the facts.

Fact one. No way EK ER fans should peak oout ABOVE their rated power consumption. That simply should never happen. If it does then the end user needs to contact their tech support and notify them immediately and take the issue from there. Especially an End User such as yourself that apparently has had the ability to test the product from the very beginning. My apologies for ruffled feathers, but a little of this issue is on you. Had you checked for accuracy at the beginning of the issue, your AQ6Pro may not have started tapping out. And as you said in your last response to me you DO have a FLUKE tester and you do this for a living maybe? So if you feel like a venomous response needs to head my direction, how about taking a deep breath and think about this from my side of things. I don't know ANYTHING about you. What I believe I have proven is that the math doesn't bear out for the fans or for you. I am not trying to flog you while you're down. I am simply trying to understand what the ENTIRE issue is and not simply little bits and pieces of the issue.

I think those ER fans you have, have the incorrect pcbs in them and the windings are correct. Which would explain a surge at boot. This issue will now have me checking all of my(9) ERs' for accuracy using my voltage meter to make absolutely certain I will not be overloading my fan hubs. I have two DeepCool 4 socket PWM hubs and an XSPC PWM fan hub that those will connect to.

Again, my apologies for the frustrations. Never intended to frustrate you and hope we can move forward instead of continuing this in a heated experience. I can read just fine btw.

You sir can continue to hot swap you fans. For me? I was taught not to take chances where electricity is involved. My maternal Grandfather was a Master Electrician and he raised me to always be cautious with electrical components. His motto was "Just cause it doesn't happen now, doesn't mean that it won't ever happen". I take that very seriously. Even with fans.

Edit: So AC does have an OCv device per channel...


Quote: Originally Posted by vvv850 View Post
Just a quick correction. Aquaero will power off the header (0 V) in case it detects an overcurrent trip.
So then, WHY did it fail. It stepped down instead. That should NOT have occurred. Going from 10 to 8 to 6 fans instead? So again maybe the AQ6Pro was defective to begin with? That OCv trip should have given you a big fat 0 the moment those fans spooled up. It didn't.

~Ceadder

I am really starting to feel my Oats as a long time member of OCN. Why did we go back to this system again?

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Last edited by Ceadderman; 05-10-2019 at 02:52 PM.
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post #35 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-11-2019, 12:53 AM - Thread Starter
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You are still confusing Voltage with Current. The AQ has an OCP (Over Current Protection) and it signals a trip by visual and audible signals. The voltage on a PWM controlled header is always around 12V so measuring the voltage doesn't give you anything. Measuring current is another thing entirely and, if you don't know what you are doing, please don't try it.

Regarding the fan specs. They state the power draw and not the peak startup power. One is maximum power draw at max RPM and one is Peak Power draw during startup. Most fan "manufacturers" do not state the second.

There are more inconsistencies in your post but I'm not going over them here.

Most likely, the monitoring chip got degraded in time due to stress from the Vardar behavior on start up. Unfortunately, EK does not inform the buyers of this behavior. Their support personnel are in the dark also.

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post #36 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-11-2019, 01:40 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by vvv850 View Post
You are still confusing Voltage with Current. The AQ has an OCP (Over Current Protection) and it signals a trip by visual and audible signals. The voltage on a PWM controlled header is always around 12V so measuring the voltage doesn't give you anything. Measuring current is another thing entirely and, if you don't know what you are doing, please don't try it.

Regarding the fan specs. They state the power draw and not the peak startup power. One is maximum power draw at max RPM and one is Peak Power draw during startup. Most fan "manufacturers" do not state the second.

There are more inconsistencies in your post but I'm not going over them here.

Most likely, the monitoring chip got degraded in time due to stress from the Vardar behavior on start up. Unfortunately, EK does not inform the buyers of this behavior. Their support personnel are in the dark also.
Hi there

There are not many companies which releasing full specs including P-Q curves of their fans like in past have been Nidec

D1225C(Gentle Typhoon 2150RPM) have in normal operation draw is around 0.123A and on start up can draw up to 0.53A

Here is good review of DARKSIDE Gentle Typhoon fans which are same or similar to above mentioned D1225C

http://thermalbench.com/2015/11/12/darkside-gentle-typhoon-1850-pwm-120mm-fan/

Where you can see or read normal operating voltage and normal draw in Amps and peak or start up draw which is

Power: 12VDC, 0.1A (0.44A peak max)

I have run to same issue in past with Vardar F3 1850RPM that time I have run only 6 of them on one header and this issue I never encountered on any other fans later on and I tried several fans on my 6XT

Did you asked EK support about the starting draw what is it?

Hope this helps

Thanks, Jura
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post #37 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-11-2019, 01:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by jura11 View Post
Hi there

There are not many companies which releasing full specs including P-Q curves of their fans like in past have been Nidec

D1225C(Gentle Typhoon 2150RPM) have in normal operation draw is around 0.123A and on start up can draw up to 0.53A

Here is good review of DARKSIDE Gentle Typhoon fans which are same or similar to above mentioned D1225C

http://thermalbench.com/2015/11/12/d...pwm-120mm-fan/

Where you can see or read normal operating voltage and normal draw in Amps and peak or start up draw which is

Power: 12VDC, 0.1A (0.44A peak max)

I have run to same issue in past with Vardar F3 1850RPM that time I have run only 6 of them on one header and this issue I never encountered on any other fans later on and I tried several fans on my 6XT

Did you asked EK support about the starting draw what is it?

Hope this helps

Thanks, Jura
No, I have not asked EK about the start up current draw, because I've tested it myself. 6 EK Vardar ER 2200 draw around 3.1-3.5A (0.5-0.58A per fan).

If they didn't have this startup behavior, the peak current would have been a tad lower and the duration a lot shorter.


Last edited by vvv850; 05-11-2019 at 04:12 AM.
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post #38 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 10:18 PM
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I haven't read every post in this thread but I can confirm that there is a difference between old Vardar fans and new ones.

My original Vardars start at their controller set speed on startup whereas my newer models start at full speed and ramp back to the controller set speed.

Its pretty annoying. I assumed it had something to do with the start-stop feature they added in the new versions.

This difference is while connected to my Aquaero.
I believe that MBs fan headers will start at full speed because the system sends 12v before the bios loads and the PWM controls kick in.
The Aquaero is already running before the system starts though, so it is def the fans that are causing it.
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