MeerTEC Build Log - Page 8 - Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community
Forum Jump: 

MeerTEC Build Log

Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #71 of 90 (permalink) Old 05-20-2020, 01:31 PM
On the way out
 
iamjanco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,438
Rep: 141 (Unique: 66)
Chuckle, I got a laugh out of the sharing of those pix. I did manage 12VDC today (no current draw as of yet):

Click image for larger version

Name:	mb-12vdc-20200520.jpg
Views:	11
Size:	138.8 KB
ID:	347758

@ManniX-ITA Very detailed writeup up front, as well as a fun and interesting read Subbed.

(Must be something about us old guys )


iamjanco is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #72 of 90 (permalink) Old 05-20-2020, 01:41 PM - Thread Starter
Old crazy guy
 
ManniX-ITA's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Germany
Posts: 616
Rep: 8 (Unique: 8)
Such a pity the X9 is impossible to find... thought it was still available as is listed on their website.
I don't see either the P series anywhere.
Only the Tower 900 is still readily available.

Thanks for the info about the chillers, very interesting.
It's a very clever setup!
But IMO I wouldn't do something similar with TECs.

It's the same reason you'll never find an home fridge using a TEC.
Only the small portable ones are, all those for home use are using a compressor.
Just like any air conditioning unit.

The TECs are fast and small compared to a compressor but not energy efficient.
If you pay the power bill you don't want have them running unless really needed.
This setup keeping the cold water on standby may have a sense only if you power them from a green source; solar/wind/geothermal.

You can probably cool the same water reserve in 30 seconds with some TECs instead of 2-5 minutes.
But it will cost 10 times the energy a compressor needs.
And to keep the water temperature is the same, the compressor once loaded is extremely efficient.
The TEC efficiency is dictated by the cooling load; more cooling is required, either for a higher deltaT or heat transfer, and worse it gets.

Compressors have a typical COP factor of 5 to 10, maybe more; it scales up linearly with time until it's loaded and then it's proportional to the power.
A typical TEC COP is between 1,5 and 2 but only at 30-40% of maximum amperage.
It has a peak up to 3 but only at ridiculously low power where it doesn't really matter.
More power and worse it gets, down to 0.2-0.4 at max.

You have to use them in a different way to make it worthwhile.
That's why I'm trying to achieve a setup more dynamic as possible.
It's the real TEC's big advantage against a compressor in this use case.
You can't achieve the same efficiency, not even close.

If you don't need a very high deltaT they can really bring down the temps in a matter of seconds.
You have to keep them running only when it's needed and for the shortest time possible.
I think with a clever mix of choices the efficiency disadvantage can be mitigated and become acceptable.
A rad in the cold loop, above dew point, mild pre-cooling, profiles, amperage limiting; hope I can see the results I'm looking for.

Pandorum
(12 items)
CPU
Ryzen 3800x
Motherboard
GigaByte X570 AORUS Master
GPU
MSI GTX 1070 Armor OC
RAM
G.Skill DDR4 F4-3600C16-GTZNC 16-18-19-32-48-1T
Hard Drive
Samsung M.2 970 PRO 1TB
Power Supply
EVGA SuperNova 1300 G2
Cooling
beQuiet Dark Rock Pro 4
Case
Corsair 750D Airflow
Operating System
Windows 10 Pro
Monitor
Asus VG248 144MHz
Keyboard
Logitech G15
Mouse
Logitech G502 Lightspeed
▲ hide details ▲
ManniX-ITA is offline  
post #73 of 90 (permalink) Old 05-20-2020, 02:20 PM
Meep
 
Gilles3000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Belgium
Posts: 5,495
Rep: 330 (Unique: 234)
Quote: Originally Posted by ManniX-ITA View Post
Such a pity the X9 is impossible to find... thought it was still available as is listed on their website.
Yeah, as far as I can find, the black X9 hasn't been for sale in europe for over half a year now.

I did find this white one for sale in the Netherlands, not sure if they ship to Germany, but it might be worth the shot if you're dead set on it.
Edit: I forgot to include the link...
https://maxict.nl/thermaltake-core-x...-p4998369.html

Last edited by Gilles3000; 05-20-2020 at 02:39 PM.
Gilles3000 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #74 of 90 (permalink) Old 05-20-2020, 09:26 PM - Thread Starter
Old crazy guy
 
ManniX-ITA's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Germany
Posts: 616
Rep: 8 (Unique: 8)
Thanks @Gilles3000 nice catch they indeed ship to Germany.
But I'm definitely not a fan of white cases...

I've opened a ticket to TT as suggested in the thread.
Maybe I'll ask Maxict directly if they can still grab some black X9 around.

Otherwise the Tower 900 is still an option; I'll see how it goes with the Enthoo.
It's a challenge in the challenge, I'd be annoyed to give up so early.

I want to spend more time on the TECs now.
The new heat exchanger is waiting and I'm curious to see if the tower sandwitch on the CPU works or not.

Congratz @iamjanco , let's have that wonderful amperes meter go full-scale now!
Keep up the flag for the seniors

Pandorum
(12 items)
CPU
Ryzen 3800x
Motherboard
GigaByte X570 AORUS Master
GPU
MSI GTX 1070 Armor OC
RAM
G.Skill DDR4 F4-3600C16-GTZNC 16-18-19-32-48-1T
Hard Drive
Samsung M.2 970 PRO 1TB
Power Supply
EVGA SuperNova 1300 G2
Cooling
beQuiet Dark Rock Pro 4
Case
Corsair 750D Airflow
Operating System
Windows 10 Pro
Monitor
Asus VG248 144MHz
Keyboard
Logitech G15
Mouse
Logitech G502 Lightspeed
▲ hide details ▲

Last edited by ManniX-ITA; 05-20-2020 at 09:36 PM.
ManniX-ITA is offline  
post #75 of 90 (permalink) Old 05-22-2020, 12:20 AM - Thread Starter
Old crazy guy
 
ManniX-ITA's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Germany
Posts: 616
Rep: 8 (Unique: 8)
I was able to start again the test setup yesterday.
The heat exchanger failed after 5-6c deltaT

My guess is the silicon screws are not putting enough pressure on the TECs.
Hope they are not damaged... shouldn't have gone more than 50c hot but with the Laird TECs you never know.
Quite puzzling the HK Pro heatsink was almost ambient temp but the copper plate was very hot.
Which didn't reflected in the temperature reading from the TEC controller sensor which was telling me 37c.

Pandorum
(12 items)
CPU
Ryzen 3800x
Motherboard
GigaByte X570 AORUS Master
GPU
MSI GTX 1070 Armor OC
RAM
G.Skill DDR4 F4-3600C16-GTZNC 16-18-19-32-48-1T
Hard Drive
Samsung M.2 970 PRO 1TB
Power Supply
EVGA SuperNova 1300 G2
Cooling
beQuiet Dark Rock Pro 4
Case
Corsair 750D Airflow
Operating System
Windows 10 Pro
Monitor
Asus VG248 144MHz
Keyboard
Logitech G15
Mouse
Logitech G502 Lightspeed
▲ hide details ▲
ManniX-ITA is offline  
post #76 of 90 (permalink) Old 05-22-2020, 09:11 AM
Old, Senile, and Happy
 
IT Diva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 4,967
Rep: 683 (Unique: 351)
Quote: Originally Posted by ManniX-ITA View Post
I was able to start again the test setup yesterday.
The heat exchanger failed after 5-6c deltaT

My guess is the silicon screws are not putting enough pressure on the TECs.
Hope they are not damaged... shouldn't have gone more than 50c hot but with the Laird TECs you never know.
Quite puzzling the HK Pro heatsink was almost ambient temp but the copper plate was very hot.
Which didn't reflected in the temperature reading from the TEC controller sensor which was telling me 37c.



Can you just use some regular metal screws with washers and springs to maintain pressure, but be able to take up for expansion?
IT Diva is offline  
post #77 of 90 (permalink) Old 05-22-2020, 09:34 AM - Thread Starter
Old crazy guy
 
ManniX-ITA's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Germany
Posts: 616
Rep: 8 (Unique: 8)
Quote: Originally Posted by IT Diva View Post
Can you just use some regular metal screws with washers and springs to maintain pressure, but be able to take up for expansion?
Yes indeed that was the previous setup.
Fiber washers to insulate on both sides and spring washer on the cold side.
But of course they transfer a bit of heat from one side to the other anyway.
Not that much but you know... had to try

I'll try again with M4 screws for the next heat exchanger design.
The DRAM blocks are limited to M3 screws while the HK Pro IV Threadripper can fit the bigger M4.

Pandorum
(12 items)
CPU
Ryzen 3800x
Motherboard
GigaByte X570 AORUS Master
GPU
MSI GTX 1070 Armor OC
RAM
G.Skill DDR4 F4-3600C16-GTZNC 16-18-19-32-48-1T
Hard Drive
Samsung M.2 970 PRO 1TB
Power Supply
EVGA SuperNova 1300 G2
Cooling
beQuiet Dark Rock Pro 4
Case
Corsair 750D Airflow
Operating System
Windows 10 Pro
Monitor
Asus VG248 144MHz
Keyboard
Logitech G15
Mouse
Logitech G502 Lightspeed
▲ hide details ▲
ManniX-ITA is offline  
post #78 of 90 (permalink) Old 05-23-2020, 11:43 AM - Thread Starter
Old crazy guy
 
ManniX-ITA's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Germany
Posts: 616
Rep: 8 (Unique: 8)
Okay, I've put back the steel screws and indeed the heat exchanger started working again.

I should have used more due diligence before embarking in this attempt with the plastic screws.
As usual when it's late and I'm sleepy, I should just go sleep and avoid compulsory shopping...

Turns out there are 3 types of plastic screws; nylon, Polypropylene and PEEK (Polyether Ether Ketone).
PEEK is a "thermoplastic super-engineering plastic".
Word of NBK, japanese quality since 1560. I'd say they sound quite reliable...

But it wouldn't work even with their screws.
Since they are a serious company, finally, they publish datasheets with the torque:

https://www.nbk1560.com/images/en/pr...-C/SPE-C_1.pdf

Their M3 screws in PEEK have a torsional torque of just 0.3.
And there's a note stating the recommendation torque is 50% of this value.

I didn't bother to make the calc but to match the 4.5 torque from the 8 x steel M3 you probably need dozens and dozens...
The only way to use these magic screws is with a custom design heatsink where you can plan to use M10/M12 screws.
They have a torque of 10.8 and 18.6. Half of that will probably suffice for 4 screws per high powered TEC.

So I'm going to stick with steel screws also with the next heat exchanger design.

I'm back testing with the setup and I've done enough to wrap up some findings.

The i4770k is now clocked at 4.6 GHz with 1.3v; I'm matching the Guru3D configuration since they have tested over the years a lot of AIO kits.
It's a good reference for benchmarking. I'm doing the same double wPrime 1024M benchmark twice and checking the max core temp.

I was expecting much more help from the pipes and rad/res/pump insulation.
Indeed going from the small single AIO pump to all these separate components had a negative impact.
I thought the Monsta rad would be the biggest detractor but I was wrong.

The Monsta insulation is working pretty well, the temperature difference dropped from 2-3c down to 1c.
But all the other components, probably combined with the mounting inside the case where the hotloop rads and fans are pushing, are bringing down the efficiency massively.
Now the TECs really struggle to bring down the coldsink to 15c and settle to 6-7 amp, while on the previous open bench AIO config they could go down to 9c.
The pipes are still very long, much more than they should, and I have a res with quite a lot of water in.
It takes a lot to precool the loop, much more than before.

The insulation is already working quite well, even with the Monsta in.
While with the open bench setup I had a deltaT between the coldsink and the water between 2c and 3c now I have just 1c difference.
It's a very good result considering how many parts are not insulated at all.

If you don't want to do something complex like my setup and just have an heat exchanger, use a CPU Pump block with a small res inside.
A very small loop with just the Monsta and the heat exchanger is highly efficient and easier to manage.

With this setup I definitely have to insulate very well the CPU block; the HK Pro is very efficient to dissipate cold too.
Had to shut down the top rad fans cause they were sucking away the cold.
It's something I'm going to do when I'll move to the main rig with the new controller and the tec-sandwich-castle on top.
Hope it's not only eliminating it as a detractor but helping enough to make the whole much more efficient.

The pump and res are a big detractor and I can't eliminate them.
But I hope to improve big time with the EK Volume FLT D5.
Less piping, no more separate top and res, just one unit.
I'll have to think about a proper insulation for the pump, I wrapped around polyurethane foam and didn't see much improvement.

I could confirm the coldloop pump speed setup matters; you need to run it at low speed to precool the loop.
Unless you have a perfectly insulated loop which is not my case; I have the Monsta rad in at least.
While under thermal load it has to run at full speed to remove more heat.

While the performances are not striking good right now they are not that bad.
Without the TECs running, just the Monsta rad, insulated, the max core temp is 70c.
It's the same level as a Kraken X63 and similar.

With the TECs at full amp and 15c pre-cooling max core temp at 57c; 13c improvement, 8c less than a Corsair H110i GT running at max speed.

But running at the limit is not the best; at 18c can still get 59c with much less power consumption.

The hotloop is gloriously oversized and works really well.
Which is good news considering that I want to put a whole lot more heat in there in the future.
The Microdrives are keeping the DC-DC converter, the TEC controller and the Heatsink at 35c with a very moderate fan noise.
I've already limited the fan speeds and stopped the top fans and I can probably reduce the speed even more.
With the correct fittings and piping and the flow at max speed I don't see any problem there.

Next short term task is to have the new EK Volume FLT D5 in the coldloop.
I'll improve the insulation and since I'm going to drain the loop I'll probably work to shorten the pipes to the correct length.
The Styrofoam is fantastic; there could be the arctic or a volcano behind, at touch is just ambient temperature.
But I need to cover at least the aluminium tape with a normal plastic insulation tape.
It's good at shielding from heat but not good enough at keeping the cold.
All as expected but I did want to feel it with my fingers

In the meantime I'll start working on the new heat exchanger design and the parts for the CPU block.
Now that I don't have to mess too much with the case I'm getting back the fun...

Pandorum
(12 items)
CPU
Ryzen 3800x
Motherboard
GigaByte X570 AORUS Master
GPU
MSI GTX 1070 Armor OC
RAM
G.Skill DDR4 F4-3600C16-GTZNC 16-18-19-32-48-1T
Hard Drive
Samsung M.2 970 PRO 1TB
Power Supply
EVGA SuperNova 1300 G2
Cooling
beQuiet Dark Rock Pro 4
Case
Corsair 750D Airflow
Operating System
Windows 10 Pro
Monitor
Asus VG248 144MHz
Keyboard
Logitech G15
Mouse
Logitech G502 Lightspeed
▲ hide details ▲

Last edited by ManniX-ITA; 05-23-2020 at 11:46 AM.
ManniX-ITA is offline  
post #79 of 90 (permalink) Old 05-23-2020, 12:09 PM
TEC Veteran
 
Puck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,001
Rep: 110 (Unique: 90)
47xx does stellar under TECs. Had mine at 4.8-5ghz depending on time of year for quite a while before socket pin rot killed the board after 2 years or so of daily use, even with dielectric in the socket.

Keep the hot side as cool as you possibly can - it directly effects the cold side temps and as long as you are above ambient on your hot side coolant there is no such thing as "overkill". I had 3x 480GTX quad radiators and still had hot side temps were over ambient with extended load (although that was with a triple TEC setup of two chillers going to a direct die block so a much larger setup). Currently I am running just a direct die TEC setup only since I would need stronger TECs in the chillers to put them back on with this super hot Ryzen setup, but when it was on the 4790k it worked great. Gaming temps were barely in the 30s, and P95 temps were mid-low 40s at 4.8ghz with 1.37v. Definitely stick with metal bolts and springs - TECs need quite a bit of mounting pressure for proper lifespan and performance. Too soft of a mount can overheat the hot side and cause dead spots in the TEC.

Seems like you have things under control, but I have some old links in my sig that might help reading through with TECs on different CPUs on 3770, 4770k, and 4790k under direct die and chiller setups. The real problem with TECs like stated is a controller. Its easy to build a failed setup that ends up too cold at idle/low usage and causes condensation while at the same time being too hot at load and barely beats watercooling. Some sort of controller is very important since a setup that is strong enough to make a difference at full load is way too strong to keep from getting below dew point at idle.


Puck is offline  
post #80 of 90 (permalink) Old 05-23-2020, 12:41 PM - Thread Starter
Old crazy guy
 
ManniX-ITA's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Germany
Posts: 616
Rep: 8 (Unique: 8)
Quote: Originally Posted by Puck View Post
47xx does stellar under TECs. Had mine at 4.8-5ghz depending on time of year for quite a while before socket pin rot killed the board after 2 years or so of daily use, even with dielectric in the socket.

Keep the hot side as cool as you possibly can - it directly effects the cold side temps and as long as you are above ambient on your hot side coolant there is no such thing as "overkill". I had 3x 480GTX quad radiators and still had hot side temps were over ambient with extended load (although that was with a triple TEC setup of two chillers going to a direct die block so a much larger setup). Currently I am running just a direct die TEC setup only since I would need stronger TECs in the chillers to put them back on with this super hot Ryzen setup, but when it was on the 4790k it worked great. Gaming temps were barely in the 30s, and P95 temps were mid-low 40s at 4.8ghz with 1.37v. Definitely stick with metal bolts and springs - TECs need quite a bit of mounting pressure for proper lifespan and performance. Too soft of a mount can overheat the hot side and cause dead spots in the TEC.

Seems like you have things under control, but I have some old links in my sig that might help reading through with TECs on different CPUs on 3770, 4770k, and 4790k under direct die and chiller setups. The real problem with TECs like stated is a controller. Its easy to build a failed setup that ends up too cold at idle/low usage and causes condensation while at the same time being too hot at load and barely beats watercooling. Some sort of controller is very important since a setup that is strong enough to make a difference at full load is way too strong to keep from getting below dew point at idle.
Thanks I'll definitely read the threads in the sig!

I'm keeping the heat exchanger plate at 35c and the heatsink at 31c.
Seems a good trade off between performances and noise; otherwise I have to run the fans at a very high speed.
At least for the current setup and my goal to keep everything inside a single case.
You never know, I could add an external MoRA or stack 3 x Core X9 in the future

I don't want to go direct die to avoid troubles with condensation.
Even with such a professional controller it's hard to avoid damaging something with direct die.
I hope the sandwich-TEC will work as expected; I can feel good vibes over it.

I'm aiming now for the TEC-1123-HV controller for the heat exchanger.
Almost 1000 euro of controller and it will probably need another 300-400 of power supply.
But it will allow me to use the TECs in the heat exchanger at full potential.

When I'll be done with the new heat exchanger I'll try to move to the Ryzen.
It's quite a different beast but I'm not going to back off till it's tamed...

Pandorum
(12 items)
CPU
Ryzen 3800x
Motherboard
GigaByte X570 AORUS Master
GPU
MSI GTX 1070 Armor OC
RAM
G.Skill DDR4 F4-3600C16-GTZNC 16-18-19-32-48-1T
Hard Drive
Samsung M.2 970 PRO 1TB
Power Supply
EVGA SuperNova 1300 G2
Cooling
beQuiet Dark Rock Pro 4
Case
Corsair 750D Airflow
Operating System
Windows 10 Pro
Monitor
Asus VG248 144MHz
Keyboard
Logitech G15
Mouse
Logitech G502 Lightspeed
▲ hide details ▲
ManniX-ITA is offline  
Reply

Tags
Extreme , Tec Chiller

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off