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Belial's Comprehensive Guide to 7950s!

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post #21 of 311 (permalink) Old 05-26-2013, 04:01 AM - Thread Starter
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I dont see why you keep going on and on about the card's voltage. The voltage is what it is at stock. Are you suggesting that the HIS IceQ Turbo is a bad card because it pulls off equal clocks with a lower voltage and in turn a lower heat output? Thats silly. If the card can do the stock clocks at 1.03, good job. If the other card needs 200mv more to get 50mhz more on the core, that is NOT a plus.

... really? You don't see why I'm going on about the voltage? Are you not aware that the biggest contributor to a card's heat, is the voltage it's at?

It's like trying to say that the Hyper 212+ is a better heatsink than the H100 because the Hyper 212+ is only 65*C on [email protected] vs H100 at 85*C [email protected]

I'm saying the IceQ Turbo is a bad cooler because it pulls off lower clocks with lower voltage at equal temps as better coolers. And it's hardly "pulling off" anything, they are all the exact same 7950s. The HIS IceQx2 7950 could do the same [email protected] as the Turbo, you are insane to think that stock clocks/voltage is any indication of a card's quality. These cards are all significantly underclocked and downvolted from their true capabitilies. To think that a card is better because it's run at a lower voltage at stock just shows how little you understand GPUs.

I just want to repeat your quote for OCN's Hall of Fame:
Quote:
If the card can do the stock clocks at 1.03, good job. If the other card needs 200mv more to get 50mhz more on the core, that is NOT a plus.

STOCK CLOCKS/VOLTAGE IS ZERO INDICATION OF THE CHIP'S CAPABILITIES!!! The HIS IceQx2 doesn't need 200mv more to get 50 more mhz, it's an arbitrary value set by HIS to make sure that if they sell faulty 7950s, they still don't get RMAd because they can still easily do their 'stock' clocks. ITS NOT A PLUS OR MINUS OF ANY KIND, IT TRULY MEANS NOTHING AT ALL. THE HIS ICEQ TURBO AND HIS ICEQX2 ARE THE EXACT SAME TAHITI CORE.

Wow, seriously. If you simply stated that you knew nothing about graphics cards in the first place we could have wrapped up this convo a long time ago.

oh my god I'm such a nerd. my jaw literally dropped and I had to do a double take when I read your post. I don't think I've ever talked to someone so misinformed EVER on OCN. Oh ho ho ho. No wonder you think Tomshardware and Guru3d are reputable sources of information! What a joke! This is the kind of person they pump out! To think there's just legions of people like you all over the world, all with these little malinformed ideas... it's hysterical! Oh man, it's like dealing with a religious fanatic or political zealot or school administrator, you just block the free flow of information and make everyone.... not smarter... for being in your presence lol.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be condescending. But this could have been taken to PM a long time ago and you are seriously derailing my thread and I'm getting a little irritated, give it up already. You come in here with wild accusations of misinformation and opining and then it turns out you don't know which way is which.
Quote:
To mirror that- Are you going to argue that certain Haswell 4770ks with a VID of 1.3v that hit 40C at idle are superior, when other 4770ks with a VID of 1.18 hit 36C?Are you going to argue that the stock voltage is in-proportionate to the temperature and the higher VID is better? Ill take the 1.18v any day.

It's well known that idle voltage means nothing... water coolers hit higher idle temps than air coolers, yet it's well known custom water beats mid range air.... I hope you don't think idle voltage means anything...

I also hope you are aware that stock VID on CPUs mean nothing... Now we don't know anything about haswell, it hasn't been released yet, but as far as Ivy bridge and Sandy goes, stock voltage on said chips have zero bearing on their overclockability or temps. My first two ivies had stock VIDs of 1.1v and could only do [email protected], while my most recent ivy has a VID of 1.22 and can easily do 5ghz at the same voltage. There are many other ivies that 'defy' the rule of lower vid = better chip too. You saying you take the 1.18v chip 'any day' shows yet again another misinformed thread in your head.
Quote:
I think you feel that Im repping the Gigabyte just because I have one. Im not. Im simply stating my experience with it. I have nothing but great things to say about this card. It runs at 30% fan speed at idle and is completely inaudible. Ive got it overclocked farther than most 7950s will go, and it still doesnt get into danger temperatures when with my max fan speed being 75%. At 75% fan speed it is loud, but show me a 4000 rpm (it hits 4000rpm at 75%) fan that is silent and Ill send you $1000. My VRMs are also cooled perfectly fine, contrary to your opinion. Regardless of this card having heatsinked VRMs, it cools them fine. I dont care how it does it, but it does. With a 25C ambient temperature and decent case airflow, my VRMs reach a maximum of 65C, 2-3C hotter than my core. This is with my card very far overclocked. Other people that have posted GPUz screenshots back this up. The Gigabyte 7950s also offer a 3 year warranty while many other manufacturers offer 2, something you didnt mention at all.

I mean this with all sincerity, I typed out a long response 10 times, but I think this is truly the best response to your long tirade:
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Cool story bro
Quote:
At 75% fan speed it is loud, but show me a 4000 rpm (it hits 4000rpm at 75%) fan that is silent and Ill send you $1000.
Quote:
. The Gigabyte 7950s also offer a 3 year warranty while many other manufacturers offer 2, something you didnt mention at al

You do realize that they don't though, right? This only applies within the lifetime of the card, which ends before 3 years...

Yes, but a 4K RPM 90mm fan is significantly quieter than a 4K RPM 75mm fan. It will also have almost twice the CFM. 140mm fan vs 120mm fan, no would would argue that a 120mm fan is better than a 140mm fan. Yet here you are arguing that a 75mm fan is better than a 90mm fan?
Quote:
. The Gigabyte 7950s also offer a 3 year warranty while many other manufacturers offer 2, something you didnt mention at al

The vast majority of companies do not ask for a receipt during warranty - Asus, Gigabyte, MSI, Sapphire, etc, so this is not an issue. Furthermore, most people replace cards before then, and, warranties also never last 2-3 years anyways because warranties only last during the lifetime of the product, which is almost always less than 2-3 years. If you ask any company about a warranty after 2-3 years, they will tell you they no longer cover an EOL product. Most will RMA it, just like they'll RMA it even if it's been 4 years after the 2-3 year warranty period, because they aren't dbags, but if you really think 2 vs 3 year warranty means anything, you are mistaken.

I've RMAd a ton of computer components, most of which were EOL, and I've never heard a company gripe about 2 year or 3 year warranty. very rarely have I ever been asked for a receipt (which is why I'll never buy EVGA), and if I did, that an ebay invoice didn't suffice.

But you are welcome to check my RMA guide out here:
Belial's Comprehensive List of Companies by RMA & Support
Quote:
You shouldnt include your bitcoin mining "business" (lol) into this at all, because almost none of your target audience is going to be doing it. The vast majority of people reading this are going to be looking for a card for gaming.

I do give you props for making a guide. I just think that some of the things you included just dont make sense. Some of the information is based on your opinions, some is completely incorrect. If you are going to guide people's purchase, you should be

First off, I don't do bitcoin mining (wow are you really that uninformed that you truly have no clue what I'm talking about?), nor is that allowed to be directly discussed on this forum. Secondly... my target audience IS GPGPU users, which is actually the majority of 7950 purchases these days... You must be one of the last 7950 owners who only game lol.

Finally, gamers are more than welcome to use this guide, it's not exclusionary by any means. It's pretty relevant to any gamer who wants to know hey, which of the $300 7950s is the best model. Some of us aren't okay with spending $300 on a certain 7950 just because it's 'good enough' when every other 7950 model has a cooler VRM. If your VRM is running at 65*C, you are doing it wrong. You should be pushing the overclock way higher.

I even specifically state that the gigabyte 7950 is actually a great card, so I don't even know what you are carrying on about.
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post #22 of 311 (permalink) Old 05-26-2013, 04:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stubass View Post

ok i see your point about manufacture sites and outputs.

anyway the reason i asked about non-TOP and TOP is the naming convention and on Asus website.
HD7950-DC2T-3GD5-V2
http://www.asus.com/Graphics_Cards/HD7950DC2T3GD5V2/#specifications
HD7950-DC2-3GD5-V2
http://www.asus.com/Graphics_Cards/HD7950DC23GD5V2/#specifications

could it be the only difference is the clock speed out of the box

Yes, the only difference between TOP and "non TOP" version is in the clocks written in the BIOS.

Physically they are 100% identical cards.

Also, regarding V1 vs V2 models, their PCB is different.

V1 uses reference AMD design PCB, it has 7+2 phases for /core memory with 2 MOSFETs per phase for GPU:



V2 has custom PCB designed by Asus, it has 8+2 phases for core/ memory ,boosted up power design and uses 3 MOSFETs per phase for GPU and it has passive cooling on VRM's and memory:




Both, V1 and V2 use Hynix memory IC's.


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post #23 of 311 (permalink) Old 05-26-2013, 05:28 AM
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Overall a decent guide with more in-depth information than most places. I wouldn't say its direct competitor is the 660Ti (except maybe in price), it was always about the 670. I do have to agree that the information you have about the different brands does seem to cater more towards GPGPU purposes instead of gaming where the load is lighter on certain components.

I have the MSI R7950-2PMD3GD5/OC and it is a reference 7950 PCB (works with EK 7950 waterblocks). It uses 2x 6-pins and has the standard layout of mini-DP>mini-DP>HDMI>2x DVI.

Different vBIOS versions from different models and companies are sometimes compatible and sometimes not compatible. Boost BIOSes usually have a much higher stock vcore and are sometimes voltage-locked (probably because of incompatibility).

Something I've noticed with my 7950 is that higher core clocks meant lower memory clocks (ie. 1280/1600 v 1250/1700). It uses Hynix ICs, so I can confirm that higher memory clocks are easily attainable (as high as 1800mhz for my card).




RX7: I'd like to see how hot your Gigabyte's VRMs run when you run this certain GPGPU operation. Even with my full cover block, my VRMs run a bit over 10C over core temps (mid-high 40C) and we all know that watercooling is vastly superior to aircooling. I'm not a miner, but I like to see how hard I can push my card sometimes as mining lets for higher clocks than regular stress tests.

That aside, I think you took a bad dump on this thread and it didn't help that instead of just providing constructive criticism, you just came out defensive and immature. Your 7950 might be a great card, but not many people get that lucky.

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post #24 of 311 (permalink) Old 05-26-2013, 05:42 AM - Thread Starter
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^ Awesome 2 posts, thanks a lot guys. Kokin, is your 7950 has voltage/memory voltage control and VRM sinks?
Quote:
I wouldn't say its direct competitor is the 660Ti (except maybe in price),

wut.. i dont. isn't the price everything?
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post #25 of 311 (permalink) Old 05-26-2013, 06:07 AM
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On Friday/Saturday (i'm really busy this week) I'll take apart both my 7950's and grab some photos off my digital camera (Not my phone)

As far as I can tell from a previous phone photo the Sapphire Dual-X uses Elpida.. Not sure on the HIS IceQ Turbo right now.

They both have the AMD 7950 reference PCB too, (it has the AMD logo on the bottom) and they're both identical because I've stripped them nekked together before.
Both have voltage control obviously (and memory), the HIS has no VRM read-outs at all, the Sapphire does. (I'm gonna try a BIOS flash from the Sapphire to the HIS seeing as they're identical).

Both use a plate to cool the VRM's, this is better then nothing barely.. Going to try and eventually get some forged copper heatsyncs thumb.gif

Very good read though! smile.gif

It's good to know what the coil whine means too! thumb.gif
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post #26 of 311 (permalink) Old 05-26-2013, 06:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Do you have the 2L, 3L, or FLeX? there so many different 7950s, quite confusing. What's your model number, maybe we can discern something from that. I'm using 11196-19-20G. I think my last one was 21G.

No memory control or VRM temp sensors here so that's news to me too. I knew there were different Dual-x's out there but didn't realize some were really good....

so jelly.
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post #27 of 311 (permalink) Old 05-26-2013, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Belial View Post

Do you have the 2L, 3L, or FLeX? there so many different 7950s, quite confusing. What's your model number, maybe we can discern something from that. I'm using 11196-19-20G. I think my last one was 21G.

No memory control or VRM temp sensors here so that's news to me too. I knew there were different Dual-x's out there but didn't realize some were really good....

so jelly.

The first fan is dead on the sapphire actually, it was always a bit dodgy but it just stopped one day and it makes a horrible noise..
Supposedly it's the 1196-16-40G according to the box (I got it because I was told that it was a 7970PCB? (it's clearly not)


Shot of the cooler and horrible thermal paste application.. And the cooling plate of course!

The PCB itself, uses elpida RAM from what I can see. See the AMD logo above the PCI-E slot? It's reference, the same with the HIS IceQ Turbo!

Also may I ask why you have nVidia 7950 GT's as the picture in the OP? haha

EDIT: Very similar to this, but not quite..
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post #28 of 311 (permalink) Old 05-26-2013, 07:58 AM
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Same my gigabyte vrm run cool and don't have an heatsink. Funny how I see so many people with heatsink on the vrm running 90C+ at less voltage then I'm running. Anyway the vrms have such a little surface area that I don't even think a heatsink makes a big difference. And also the gigabyte cooler is excellent and it's one of the best. At stock it will keep the card under 60c all the time and even at 1.3v I manage to keep it below 70C. I agree with your point on the fans tho, the fans are bad quality because mine make a HORRIBLE rattling noise at 100%, that eventually go away but still. Also people need to get out their head that low ASIC cards are bad. Mine has 58.6% and I'm running at 1.3v (vdroop 1.289v) at 1235MHz and the memory at 1900MHz (1.6v) all day long. In the end all of this is subjective IMO. That's MY experience with the gigabyte card. Yours was probably bad and that's okay. Anyway these days it seems the companies change the pcb and make it ****tier day by day. Think about it, the 7950 started at 400 or 450, now you can get it at 300. Obviously they have to cut down the quality somewhere

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post #29 of 311 (permalink) Old 05-26-2013, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Belial View Post

^ Awesome 2 posts, thanks a lot guys. Kokin, is your 7950 has voltage/memory voltage control and VRM sinks?
wut.. i dont. isn't the price everything?

Yeah, it's like comparing a Hyundai Getz to an Audi RS4.. Obviously not as bigger jump, but you can't compare two things with totally different markets.

If person A has a $350 to spend on a GPU, they have $350, they can't get the next best thing for $450 because it compares to a $350 part or is a bit better.
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post #30 of 311 (permalink) Old 05-26-2013, 07:34 PM
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Nice thread thumb.gif

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