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post #1 of 59 (permalink) Old 11-14-2019, 06:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Nvidia RTX dpc latency fixed?

I've always owned an AMD card and want to upgrade but ive been reading horror stories about nvidia driver idling 200ms and peaking 1k in games.
How is it now?
My current setup stays around 30-40ms max 200.

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post #2 of 59 (permalink) Old 11-14-2019, 07:01 PM
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I had some raised DPC with a 1060, which of course meant nothing to RMA personnel as they know squat nothing about these sort of things to even check it when explained. Luckily the driver was changed later so this issue went away.
2070, didn't notice it being an issue yet but it often is with new NV cards the first few months after launch as they always go bonkers with how much time the driver stalls/steals do I guess it's scheduling or something else that they want to do ASAP and want to do too much.
Where as AMD does thing a bit differently so they so far did not suffer from this, no Intel, as far as I noticed.

About <150us, around 250us if click into a window = focus change. 100-150us is pretty normal even for many other heavy Windows parts.

The problem is when it starts peaking into 1000s = into "ms".
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post #3 of 59 (permalink) Old 11-15-2019, 05:05 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Synoxia View Post
I've always owned an AMD card and want to upgrade but ive been reading horror stories about nvidia driver idling 200ms and peaking 1k in games.
How is it now?
My current setup stays around 30-40ms max 200.
What do you expect will happen if nVidia related processes take slightly longer, in MICROSECONDS (not milliseconds, like you wrote), to do whatever it is they're doing?

We can sit here all day long comparing latencymon results numerically, and the outcome will be the same invariably: AMD wins. But that means absolutely nothing to the experience.

My DPC latency increased when I switched to an nVidia card, but that had absolutely no impact on the experience.

IIRC, Pascal had some issues with latency a couple of months into release, but it was addressed.

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post #4 of 59 (permalink) Old 11-15-2019, 05:26 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by JackCY View Post
I had some raised DPC with a 1060, which of course meant nothing to RMA personnel as they know squat nothing about these sort of things to even check it when explained. Luckily the driver was changed later so this issue went away.

About <150us, around 250us if click into a window = focus change. 100-150us is pretty normal even for many other heavy Windows parts.

The problem is when it starts peaking into 1000s = into "ms".
I would not bring Nvidia card to RMA for this particular reason. Its simply how the driver works, regardless its anything but optimal. However i did not had enough time to check all the settings in Nvidia panel to see if, and which one could be responsible.


@Synoxia @ToTheSun!
Have seen cases where Nvidia driver was taking 4000 microseconds, eg. 4 miliseconds.

The impact isnt primarily in gaming - especially if you have a personal computer which is being used for only one task at a time. If your gaming PC also had to crunch some numbers on the background you might have significant penalty towards CPU oriented tasks, in case you are doing gaming and number crunching at the same time (databases, video encoding, whatever).


Hardware with high driver time does steal a bit of performance. Slower the CPU, higher the impact.

From my Buildlog (in signature) i have quite good experience with changing the parameters if Intels 211 LAN card. The Wifi card will cause longer driver operation, not just for itself, but also for related drivers such as TCPIP, Ndis, NetBT and of course ntoskrnl.

Imagine it rather as a chain, from which the slowest part is the determining factor = other parts of the system have to wait for the slowest one. In most cases that would be SSD (except NVMes), LAN card or something like TV Tuner. The more slow drivers, the higher cumulative effect.

======
Another impact might be in sound quality. If there are drivers or software which takes above 1ms to complete its ISR/DPC call, you might experience choppy sound. It would be more aparrent if you try to use sound card as a data transmitter and check the signal on the other side on "bit per bit" accurancy". For this purpose i used old 8bit PC which was originally used with audio tapes. In most cases it was not possible to play sound without any issues.


Bottomline is that i would not tell people to not buy Nvidias simply because of this behavior. I would not recommend to install nvidia card in a system which should be "clean" and work flawlessly or being oriented for both workstation and gaming at the same time, or to be used for audio/video purposes.

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Last edited by Offler; 11-15-2019 at 06:32 AM.
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post #5 of 59 (permalink) Old 11-15-2019, 07:38 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Offler View Post
The impact isnt primarily in gaming
OP asked in the context of gaming. I answered in the context of gaming. Last I checked, nVidia was fine for that.

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post #6 of 59 (permalink) Old 11-15-2019, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
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So basically with a Nvidia card i have to expect idle latencies > 100s, regardless of extensive tweaks?
Yes, microseconds, didn't bother finding the greek.
Still, i had a bit of reading and found that optimal is < 100s.
I am a very very very sensitive person to things like microstuttering/framepacing to the extent that i usually don't play a game unless i figure out and solve any issue... 30 fps game = 30hz or 1/2 60hz with perfect 33.3ms framepacing or i vomit.
Litterally. I basically quit bloodborne on ps4 because of this and still hated it on ps4 pro the whole time.
I can notice framepacing microstuttering at 60fps and even in online games at 144+fps but ofcourse as fps increase also frametime variance is harder to spot (and so more tolerable).
I just feel that something is wrong with the game.
I need to keep this GPU for a long time and so 30 fps is a possibility.

So TLDR: will these impact in ANYWAY the correct frametime delivery or add even unnoticeable to normal person hitching?

P.S i also own a xg2401 monitor, how is it the gsync compatible solution on that?

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post #7 of 59 (permalink) Old 11-15-2019, 08:55 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Synoxia View Post
So TLDR: will these impact in ANYWAY the correct frametime delivery or add even unnoticeable to normal person hitching?
No. A couple hundred microseconds of DPC latency will not affect frame delivery in any meaningful way. In doubt, check reviews that compare inter-frame consistency.

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post #8 of 59 (permalink) Old 11-15-2019, 11:19 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Synoxia View Post
So basically with a Nvidia card i have to expect idle latencies > 100s, regardless of extensive tweaks?
Yes, microseconds, didn't bother finding the greek.
Still, i had a bit of reading and found that optimal is < 100s.
I am a very very very sensitive person to things like microstuttering/framepacing to the extent that i usually don't play a game unless i figure out and solve any issue... 30 fps game = 30hz or 1/2 60hz with perfect 33.3ms framepacing or i vomit.
Litterally. I basically quit bloodborne on ps4 because of this and still hated it on ps4 pro the whole time.
I can notice framepacing microstuttering at 60fps and even in online games at 144+fps but ofcourse as fps increase also frametime variance is harder to spot (and so more tolerable).
I just feel that something is wrong with the game.
I need to keep this GPU for a long time and so 30 fps is a possibility.

So TLDR: will these impact in ANYWAY the correct frametime delivery or add even unnoticeable to normal person hitching?

P.S i also own a xg2401 monitor, how is it the gsync compatible solution on that?
I would say anything <125 microseconds is ok, anything <80 is great.

Measurings >500 might cause a noticeable stutter, but not alone - it can be a triggering event for much more processes to be slowed down and queued to CPU (mostly in cases when at least one core is at 100% or when GPU is on 100%).
Correct Frame pacing + Freesync/GSync @ Vsynced 60fps is better experience than higher FPS when pacing or stutterring occurs.

The answer to TLDR is "No" if any driver measured with Latency mon would be below 500 microseconds.
Both Gsync and FreeSync should help to decrease any effects it might have on frame consistency.

For best frame pacing i usually recommend following:
a) Fullscreen
b) Frame limiter enabled and set to value equal to display refresh rate.
c) Vsync ON
d) Gsync/FreeSync On.

Then check whether Shader Cache Enabled/Disabled solves any stutter when loading new objects.

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post #9 of 59 (permalink) Old 11-15-2019, 12:48 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by ToTheSun! View Post
No. A couple hundred microseconds of DPC latency will not affect frame delivery in any meaningful way. In doubt, check reviews that compare inter-frame consistency.
It's already so bad that DPC's impact is either already crazy or non existent in comparison, I'm leaning more toward non existent in comparison. The individual frame times of some game engines vary wildly.

If I'm buying a product I'm not only paying for the hardware but also software, I don't care if the hardware is in top condition if the driver is a jumbled unusable mess.

Quote:
For best frame pacing i usually recommend following:
a) Fullscreen
b) Frame limiter enabled and set to value equal to display refresh rate.
c) Vsync ON
d) Gsync/FreeSync On.
= you're running Vsync latency penalized when ever your framerate is high enough to go over refresh rate = your limiter.
You may think that with 144fps limiter all you get is 144 max but that's not the case, you can easily get 180fps spikes and while your average may be 143fps half the frames are jumping into Vsync territory and have latency applied while other are in Async territory = you get stutters for dayz.
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post #10 of 59 (permalink) Old 11-15-2019, 02:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by JackCY View Post
It's already so bad that DPC's impact is either already crazy or non existent in comparison, I'm leaning more toward non existent in comparison. The individual frame times of some game engines vary wildly.

If I'm buying a product I'm not only paying for the hardware but also software, I don't care if the hardware is in top condition if the driver is a jumbled unusable mess.



= you're running Vsync latency penalized when ever your framerate is high enough to go over refresh rate = your limiter.
You may think that with 144fps limiter all you get is 144 max but that's not the case, you can easily get 180fps spikes and while your average may be 143fps half the frames are jumping into Vsync territory and have latency applied while other are in Async territory = you get stutters for dayz.
yeah i am kinda overthinking about this because Pascal real-time benchmark i've seen have a very jumpy frametime deliver compared to my vega 64 smoothness... i am afraid of buying because i think it will show the same behaviour.
This is my result on fresh installed 1909 and AMD card while playing a game, it never goes over 70 and mostly stays 30-40. How does a rtx super latencymon compare?


EDIT: found it


check how AMD delivers a smooth frametime graph while 1080 doesn't... this isn't a fanboying thread, i want to upgrade and AMD does not offer anything substantially better than my current card, also some application i use (Pimax VR, cemu) heavily favor nvidia graphics card thus i want to move but at the same time i do not want a downgrade in smoothness
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