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post #121 of 160 (permalink) Old 10-05-2016, 06:05 AM
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You sound like a butt-hurt indie dev, imho.

If the game's primary mode of play is to walk around a click buttons to play logs and call cable cars, etc. it's a walking sim.

What strategy is needed to walk around and explore a world?

Because in Bioshock 1 and 2, I need to freeze Houdini splicers, zap splicers standing in water, use telekinesis against grenades thrown my way, use armor-piercing bullets against Big Daddies (but only after I research them with the camera), manage my money, eve, and health packs, decide if I want to be better at hacking or combat, set traps before an ambush, hack security traps, use insect swarm against large numbers of splicers, upgrade weapons, etc. rolleyes.gif

Meanwhile, you walk around in SOMA and click buttons.... oh and run away from a handful of enemies. There is no real strategy. A real game needs strategy. Deciding plot paths in a non-linear story isn't a strategy or game.

That said, I would recommend SOMA to everyone, but I don't misrepresent the game. If your the type of gamer that doesn't care much about story, ambiance, and philosophical arguments, I wouldn't recommend it.

It's not even a survival horror game.

It's a story-driven exploration game with minor puzzles, a few chase sequences, and an emphasis on a creepy, tense, and intriguing scenario.

Compared to STALKER, Bioshock is a walking simulator.

Compared to Total War, Cossacks, Men of War... Bioshock is COD-tier strategy gaming.

Also very few games really are survival horror experiences. With that said I like how you define strategy (and I guess tactics as well?) as parts of game design. Now we gotta tell the console gamers that biggrin.gif

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post #122 of 160 (permalink) Old 10-05-2016, 11:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umeng2002 View Post

You sound like a butt-hurt indie dev, imho.

If the game's primary mode of play is to walk around a click buttons to play logs and call cable cars, etc. it's a walking sim.

What strategy is needed to walk around and explore a world?

Because in Bioshock 1 and 2, I need to freeze Houdini splicers, zap splicers standing in water, use telekinesis against grenades thrown my way, use armor-piercing bullets against Big Daddies (but only after I research them with the camera), manage my money, eve, and health packs, decide if I want to be better at hacking or combat, set traps before an ambush, hack security traps, use insect swarm against large numbers of splicers, upgrade weapons, etc. rolleyes.gif

Meanwhile, you walk around in SOMA and click buttons.... oh and run away from a handful of enemies. There is no real strategy. A real game needs strategy. Deciding plot paths in a non-linear story isn't a strategy or game.

That said, I would recommend SOMA to everyone, but I don't misrepresent the game. If your the type of gamer that doesn't care much about story, ambiance, and philosophical arguments, I wouldn't recommend it.

It's not even a survival horror game.

It's a story-driven exploration game with minor puzzles, a few chase sequences, and an emphasis on a creepy, tense, and intriguing scenario.

Since by butt-hurt indie dev you really mean abnormally passionate gamer/modder/wannabe dev, yeah that's me. In other words I'm discussing things about games you never noticed and don't comprehend. You sound like any other low IQ mindless gamer. BioShock's primary mode of play is to walk around and kill things. Proof is in all of my examples above. Everything revolves around that. There is more to SOMA's "button clicking" than BioShock's combat, and more ways to handle many of the enemy encounters than just fleeing. Running away is just what you chose to do, one of two general options.

Yes, you misrepresent the game completely, as both of our posts have shown.

And now that you're using the word strategy (while also referring to tactics) you are opening a whole new can of worms as Charcharo has pointed out. You are now the only person in the world to define BioShock's gameplay as strategic thus you're misrepresenting BioShock as well. Less thinking is involved with BioShock's combat than much of SOMA's environmental problem solving.
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Originally Posted by umeng2002 View Post

A real game needs strategy.

So you have a one-dimensional, ignorant view of video games. Not once has it ever crossed your mind how SOMA's storytelling can only be done in the video game medium, how strongly and uniquely it pulls from the medium to tell its story. How gameplay and the environment aid in storytelling. Despite all this, to you it's not a "game" but instead a "walking sim." Again, this says more about you than the game. You're perhaps inadvertently saying that all SOMA has to offer is walking. Speaking without thinking. Deciding plot paths in a non-linear story is something unique to games and choose your own adventure books.

Survival horror is right in your face, although it is not a deep survival horror game. Scary, somewhat unpredictable (at times) enemy encounters that can easily kill you, no way to combat them, manual healing. You are often "trapped" with enemies which you are helpless against, that is survival horror at a basic level.
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Originally Posted by umeng2002 View Post

If the game's primary mode of play is to walk around a click buttons to play logs and call cable cars, etc. it's a walking sim.

Translation and correction: If a game's primary mode of play is to somehow survive against enemies which you are quite powerless to, with a secondary mode of play to interact with the environment in ways people mistakenly call puzzles, with almost every instance of this interaction (that's usually a bit more complex than killing enemies in a game like BioShock) being unique unlike the repetitive killing in a shooter like BioShock, and when the story takes precedence over gameplay, it is a "walking sim." SOMA undoubtedly has more going for it, so why single out walking over everything else? Thankfully most people aren't clueless enough to fail to realize this.

SOMA is one of the only linear games with gameplay that is designed smartly enough to not get repetitive for its duration, objectively speaking. Thus, it's an example of some of the most smartly designed gameplay in a linear game, and it does so while having the most minimal mechanics which is actually more impressive than cramming in too many gameplay mechanics/systems.

Practically every instance of gameplay throughout the entirety of SOMA has the player using unique systems (machinery, computer equipment, vehicles, others) performing different problem-solving tasks every time, unlike BioShock where the task is almost always to kill. These tasks are typically more complicated than the generic killing of a game like BioShock, hence why people get stumped in SOMA (nerves caused by the enemies being another reason, because survival horror).

The goal of BioShock's gameplay segments is almost always the same; kill using one of three extremely simple methods (no strategy involved, just kindergarten level tactics). Then it has some systems outside this, such as currency and upgrading. In SOMA the goal of the less story driven gameplay segments (most games including BioShock lack the opposite) are either "survive this unique enemy AI by using one of up to two... and a half methods depending on the enemy" or "solve this unique problem in the environment in order to advance." That speaks for itself and ignores all of the story emphasis of course, since SOMA has far more going for it than a game like BioShock (story and atmosphere).

Whereas in BioShock you are always performing one of very few tasks; shooting to kill, throwing grenades to kill things, using powers to kill things (so these last three are just pressing/holding an input button to kill something), setting traps if you so choose (again to kill things), and occasionally stopping to upgrade (or buy, right?) a weapon using the currency system.

SOMA has other unique gameplay segments dedicated to storytelling or as Charcharo above calls it, "thematic role-playing." These are gameplay segments in which what you're doing (the gameplay part) is designed to, in a way, tell the story and put weight on the player. This takes on many forms in many other games, but some examples in SOMA include the Brandon simulation which I won't discuss further due to spoilers, the "suit replacement" moment (if you don't know what I'm talking about I can't really blame you and I won't be clear due to spoilers), the surveys even.

Summary of all this? SOMA's problem-solving gameplay, in which every single instance is unique, stumps people. Same can't be said for the original "walking simulators."

The fact that every instance of this is unique and a more complex task than generic killing in a game like BioShock, combined with the fact that almost every enemy encounter is a unique AI, is essentially how it has more diversified gameplay than the vast majority of linear games out there including BioShock, and is only less simpler mechanically but not in actual tasks. You call this a walking simulator... the joke is on you.

Then it has gameplay designed around storytelling, something very rare in games. These moments of story-driven gameplay as well as all the interactive environmental stoytelling (something BioShock even relies on) are unique to video games, yet you say it's not a "real game" so the joke is again on you. There is no sense in anything you've been saying and my last three posts remain true and mostly unaddressed still.
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post #123 of 160 (permalink) Old 10-06-2016, 01:20 AM
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Now you're just proving my point.

So tell me, Boredgunner, did your dad make SOMA or something?

Because you seem to be grasping at straws to make this game into some sort of masterpiece.

If anything, it reeks of half baked gameplay ideas. Like they started from scratch a few times then just shipped it as a stripped down exploration game.

They wrote a cool story and premise, but never had an idea for gameplay.

Deciding plot paths isn't gameplay. It's role-playing - like playing The Witcher 3 with no combat. They use to have those types of games on the Sega CD. They're called interactive movies.

I just don't want people to read your posts and buy the game thinking it's like a RE4-type survival horror game with inventory/ weapon management or combat or platforming or "puzzling."

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post #124 of 160 (permalink) Old 10-06-2016, 02:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umeng2002 View Post

Now you're just proving my point.

So tell me, Boredgunner, did your dad make SOMA or something?

Because you seem to be grasping at straws to make this game into some sort of masterpiece.

If anything, it reeks of half baked gameplay ideas. Like they started from scratch a few times then just shipped it as a stripped down exploration game.

They wrote a cool story and premise, but never had an idea for gameplay.

Deciding plot paths isn't gameplay. It's role-playing - like playing The Witcher 3 with no combat. They use to have those types of games on the Sega CD. They're called interactive movies.

I just don't want people to read your posts and buy the game thinking it's like a RE4-type survival horror game with inventory/ weapon management or combat or platforming or "puzzling."

Please dont link my literary remediation that is the Witcher 3 to movies tongue.gif . It has faults, but it aint TLOU yet.

You are wiggling way more than anyone else here. Trying to make Bioshock sound like some deep, smart and strategic game with never before seen mechanics.

I do not want people to read your post and buy Bioshock expecting a hardcore STALKER experience or even a deep Real Time Tactics game like Men of War with high levels of strategic and "tactical depth"

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post #125 of 160 (permalink) Old 10-06-2016, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by umeng2002 View Post

Reading and listening to logs and unlocking doors doesn't save a game from being a walking sim.

It's a walking sim.

There are a handful of enemies that you "escape" from and you unravel a story.

I'd recommend everyone who likes horror and sci-fi to "experience" it, but I still think it's a walking sim.

It's a game I think about all the time, and I even haven't played it in like 6 months. I'm going through Bioshock 2 now, so maybe I'll scratch more of my underwater fix and "play" it again.

But it's still a walking sim.

A walking sim has no interaction with the world besides through narrated dialogue.

This does therefore it is not a walking sim.

Dear Esther and Everybody's Gone to the Rapture are walking sims.

SOMA, Amnesia, and Penumbra are not.
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post #126 of 160 (permalink) Old 10-06-2016, 06:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by umeng2002 View Post

Now you're just proving my point.

So tell me, Boredgunner, did your dad make SOMA or something?

Because you seem to be grasping at straws to make this game into some sort of masterpiece.

If anything, it reeks of half baked gameplay ideas. Like they started from scratch a few times then just shipped it as a stripped down exploration game.

They wrote a cool story and premise, but never had an idea for gameplay.

Deciding plot paths isn't gameplay. It's role-playing - like playing The Witcher 3 with no combat. They use to have those types of games on the Sega CD. They're called interactive movies.

I just don't want people to read your posts and buy the game thinking it's like a RE4-type survival horror game with inventory/ weapon management or combat or platforming or "puzzling."

Don't worry, most of them played Amnesia and know what to expect. Also I wouldn't even say SOMA has deciding plot paths so that was also misleading on your behalf, and yes it's not gameplay. You didn't seem to understand any of my posts.

People who didn't play any prior games from Frictional Games might expect the traditional definition of a walking simulator, although if they look at Steam reviews/discussion they'll probably drop that thought anyway. That is, they'd expect a game with no gameplay, interaction, just walking with no resistance or obstacles. This does not at all accurately describe SOMA.

Not one gameplay idea of SOMA is half-baked, provide an example of why you think this because I'm curious.

Also let's look at the obvious, examples actual simulator genres in gaming.

  • Racing simulators
  • Flight simulators
  • Truck simulators
  • Farming simulators

These are self-explanatory. All you do in these games are race, fly, drive trucks, and farm respectively. That's the goal and focus. Now, walking simulators, not an actual genre mind you since it doesn't really exist. Is the goal/focus in SOMA to walk? Is that all you do? Anyone who thinks that must not have played the game, because it's not.

In Dear Esther that's actually all you do, although the focus is on the environments not the act of walking whereas in actual simulators the focus is on the thing it's said to be simulating.

No grasping at straws, just stating the obvious.
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post #127 of 160 (permalink) Old 10-06-2016, 08:05 AM
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In other news, The Lord of the Rings is a 10 hour movie about walking.


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post #128 of 160 (permalink) Old 10-06-2016, 12:29 PM
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In other news, The Lord of the Rings is a 10 hour movie about walking.


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post #129 of 160 (permalink) Old 10-08-2016, 09:11 PM
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I'm just using Bioshock as an example of a game with deeper mechanics than SOMA - not that the mechanics of Bioshock are deep.

As I've said before, I think SOMA is great for what it is.

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