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Upgrading old system, 4670k/4690k overclocked vs i5-750 @3.7GHz, gaming in 2018.

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post #11 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-10-2019, 07:12 AM
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I wouldn't upgrade to a 4 year old platform especially if 144hz will ever be part of the plan.

The best upgrade path is likely Ryzen, at CES we were told the 8c/16t part would be out in the middle of the year which is what I'm holding out for.


For what it's worth I have a 4690k at 4.7Ghz and I really need a CPU upgrade for newer games, the 4790k would have been a better idea if I'd known where games were heading but it's definitely not worth it for me to buy one at this point.
If your goals are 60fps then both of these CPUs are still great (4790k is better) but at 144fps you'll find out really quick just how bad the minimums can be in recent games lol

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post #12 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-10-2019, 07:34 AM
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I have a 4790K and an R9 290 (so a much better CPU but slightly worse GPU) and I still get some framerate hitches in GTAV. Part of the engine, and part of that giant map. Some sections have large polygon counts and it is difficult to chug through sometimes.

Take the Sandy Bridge over Devil's Canyon to get to Skylake.


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post #13 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-10-2019, 08:13 AM - Thread Starter
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[I'm responding to each person individually, but anyone can feel free to respond to what I'm saying to each person. ]

For "Jedi Mind Trick":

Would that X3440 CPU work with my P7P55D motherboard? What kind of gaming performance improvements should I expect? Could I pay a little more for a "higher" CPU than the X3440 that works with my mobo, and would it be worth it?

I already have FreeSync working with my AOC G2260VWQ6 monitor, the performance unfortunately doesn't seem to have changed at all when it comes to GTA5 and the hitching/stutters (but it LOOKS way better not having tearing when it is within the FreeSync Range, with the help of RTSS to restrict frames to 73 [the monitor is 75Hz]). Is the major difference of that CPU you recommended the extra threads? Can it overclock to at least 3.7GHz with my current heatsink and perform noticeably better than my current CPU?

And the issues I'm having with GTA5 are something you can't escape from, especially when in the city, it is very obvious and annoying, and definitely makes me unable to play nearly as well as I could if I weren't having these issues. If the CPU you suggest would get rid of those issues I'd be happy, if not, I'd rather get something like the 4690k, or a newer CPU, but like you said, the CPU sounds like it is very cheap, and might be worthwhile depending on how much of a real performance increase it would provide in games like GTA5, or even maybe games like Battlefield 1 (which I don't have and may never play), any game that's CPU intensive.

An interesting thing I figured out, I tried ALL KINDS of combinations for hours/days to try to get FreeSync to work well in GTA5, and the best compromise I found was to use FreeSync + Enhanced Sync + RTSS limiting to 73 frames. If I didn't use Enhanced Sync, there was tearing at the bottom of the screen when combining only FreeSync & RTSS. If I turn on Vsync as some have recommended combined with RTSS at 73, I still get a lot of extra input lag from what I recall. If I only used FreeSync & Enhanced Sync but not RTSS, when you pan the camera you've regular stuttering, but as soon as I limit it to 73 with RTSS, it becomes smooth, with only very minor stutters in low CPU usage areas. I think those minor stutters happen even with FreeSync and everything else turned off though. But in any case, in the city, even with all the CPU intensive settings turned down, and even with ALL graphics options turned down, whether I use DX 10.1 or DX 11, the same major stutters/hitches occur, whether FreeSync is on or off. Hence.. why I want a more powerful CPU at some point.

Btw, I'm forced to live with my FreeSync monitor only working properly at 48Hz to 75Hz when it comes to the FreeSync range. I tried their beta drivers to get it to work at I believe 35-75Hz, but it seems like when it dips down below 48 frames, the screen just goes black.. at least in games like Dying Light, and at least one other game I tried, and it happens frequently. As soon as the frames go above 48 though the screen is no longer black. So it seems unless there's a solution I've to live with the worse FreeSync range. I think I was even able to make it happen in an old game like Counter-Strike: Source, by forcing the frame rate to like 40 with RTSS, with the beta driver for the monitor installed, it would just start flickering black or something.

I have an excellent DisplayPort cable too so that shouldn't be an issue. It's a VESA certified Startech cable, and as far as I know if you buy one 6 feet or shorter there should be no bandwidth issues and such even at higher resolutions and frame rates: https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B0014BQQI4

I've read inferior cables that aren't VESA certified can result in issues.. including potentially damaging the GPU I think.
It would be nice to have a monitor with LFC, I think it's supposed to make it so that frame rates below the FreeSync range don't tear.

For "shilka":

Is my heatsink actually so inferior now for lowering temperatures that it would be worth paying for a new heat sink? I mean it's just a big piece of metal, I don't see any signs of deterioration. Is there a problem sticking with what I have and I guess buying a new bracket for it if I have to (or possibly getting the bracket for free by following the tip of Jedi Mind Trick)? Also I read Ryzen CPUs don't overclock much at all in terms of it having a noticeable impact on frame rates, so I'm not sure if it's worth even using better than the stock cooler they provide, besides extending the life of it by having lower temps (which is the major reason I'd bother installing the 212, assuming it's better than the stock cooler AMD would provide).

I read the first post on that link you provided, it seems to be they are saying there are better alternatives if you're buying new today, but not that you need to replace the 212 if you already own it, am I wrong?

Regarding the NVME SSD issue, I actually haven't done any research into variations in SSDs, but that sounds like something important to keep in mind to save money if I don't need that feature?

For "speed_demon:

Yes, I've heard that AMD motherboards tend to be supported for years, rather than Intel's theme of relatively quick socket obsolescence, that would be fantastic.. although I'm not sure if it would matter considering how long I'm likely to stick with my CPU if I were to buy a new one. By the time I want to upgrade, even if I bought a new AMD socket, they'd probably also have moved on to another socket, or be on the 2nd or 3rd new socket, years from now after buying a new AMD CPU on a brand new socket today (assuming a new socket came out when I was buying). What it might matter for is if years from now I wanted to do a CPU upgrade, but only wanted to pay like $50-$150.. maybe more, and I'd be able to buy a CPU that's supported with my current motherboard, to get some extra performance (perhaps a higher core count CPU for example, going from like 8 cores to 12 or more, with an older CPU/mobo combo, at the time).

Yeah I've been seeing that there's actually hardware support for making it easier to install Windows 7 on some AMD motherboards, that's great to hear!
Oh and are you saying Zen 2 may be something I'd have to wait over a year after the initial release of Zen 2, before Zen 2 models come out that are worth getting over older Ryzen CPUs?

For "white owl":

The more I read the more I'm convinced it would be smarter to save up for a whole new CPU/Mobo/RAM combo if I want to play new high CPU intensive games without issues. And yeah, it seems that for the minimum FPS end of things, older CPUs probably just won't cut it for new games when running a 144Hz or higher FreeSync monitor that I eventually hope to get, to replace my current 75Hz FreeSync monitor.

For "corky dorkelson":

Wow thank you for the GTA5 specific input! I imagine it would run a lot smoother than my CPU, but it sounds like you still have issues. I wonder if a 6 to 8 core CPU with similar performance per core or better compared to your CPU, would be enough to make the game buttery smooth at all times (assuming GTA5 supports more than 4 cores.. which I think I've heard it does, I'd have to look into it).

But yeah, even if I turn all the settings down to minimum and even if lower the resolution to 800x600 I think, the hitching/stutters don't improve, so it's I'm assuming just a CPU limitation, and it hurts, it hurts so bad.

Especially bad because I want to be able to compete in races and stuff with the best of them if I'm talented enough, I'm even a part of Broughy1322's NODO (Nonchalant Dominance) crew (which has a surprisingly in-depth process in order to join). They do races where you're supposed to race like you would in a real life race, where you try not to crash into people, and have to provide some room for people in certain circumstances to increase safety. And if you mess up with regards to some of the rules, the person you caused to crash or whatever can call you out, and you have to stop and wait for them to catch up with you. It's certainly neat compared to racing with randoms.

Broughy is the guy who makes all the videos for fastest lap times and top speeds of new vehicles, comparing with older vehicles. I believe they also have NODO crews for the consoles as well as PC. Another bonus for joining the NODO crew, they have a really nice shade of orange you can't otherwise get afaik, that you can apply to vehicles. I've applied it to several, generally (but not always) as the secondary color, along with usually (but not always) black of one type or another (classic, matte, metallic, whatever looks best for a particular vehicle combined with that shade of orange). I don't use that color combination on every vehicle, but for the ones that it looks good on, it looks DAMN GOOD, at least to me.

He also is responsible for this document, which helps if you want to know things like which cars benefit from buying a spoiler vs stock (even if it appears to have a spoiler stock.. I'm not sure if that's only some or all of the time), or Off-Road tires, if you want to be able to go over bumps basically without noticing for example (you know it is supported if there's a check under the "Tyres Clip" section I believe: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1689972026

An interesting thing I've heard about the GTA5 game engine for racing is that the more frames you get, the faster you are able to drive. So having lower frames puts me at a disadvantage.

The best thing I'd guess you could have for that purpose is a 240Hz FreeSync 2 monitor, and a computer that could keep your frames as high as possible. Of course turning off FreeSync is better if you want the best of the best possible input lag (in terms of it being as low as possible), and I've heard tearing is far less noticeable at higher frame rates.. but I'd probably choose to switch between FreeSync on and off depending on how serious I was about winning at a given moment, vs how much I didn't want to see any tearing. Of course such low input lag (which higher Hz allows for, and the effect of which is increased further by turning off things like FreeSync) is more important in First Person Shooters, which I also play, but so far have never been super serious about (I'm too old to go pro even if I wanted to I think, assuming I'm talented enough to do so).

For "everyone":

Okay, I think that about covers everything for now. Thank you all once again!
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post #14 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-10-2019, 08:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Oh yeah I forgot to mention the other benefit of joining the NODO crew in GTA5, besides the crew color (the nice shade of orange you can't otherwise get) you can use on vehicles, you get to put that swag Snoopy with shades icon in that confident pose on your vehicles if you want. Doesn't always look good, but sometimes it adds the perfect extra touch on vehicles, and lets people know where you're from Crew-wise if they're aware of what NODO, and who Broughy1322 is.

[Edit: here's a link to roughly what the Snoopy icon would look like, but cropped and altered without the bird and wall I think,
and with the sweater the same shade of orange as what you can put on your cars if you're part of NODO I believe: https://www.sunglasswarehouse.com/bl.../06/snoopy.jpg]

Last edited by dimeuno; 01-10-2019 at 08:34 AM.
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post #15 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-10-2019, 08:55 AM
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The 212 Evo is outdated and mediocre and the fan is not really quiet
Yes you could keep your 212 Evo but for a new CPU i would buy a new cooler as coolers today are far better even at the same price point

As for SSD´s they come with two major drive protocoles AHCI which runs via the SATA controller and those comes in many forms including 2,5 inch as well as in M.2 forms
NVME is a newer drive protocole that runs via the PCI-E bus and where the limit with AHCI is 600 MB/s NVME is much much faster and 3000 MB/s or higher drives are not uncommon

The problem with NVME is on the software as almost nothing can use the faster speeds you get with NVME so unless you are working with and moving around large file sizes NVME is not faster or better in any way for normal OS use and gaming and they are a waste of time and money and they cost a lot more than drives using the older AHCI protocole

If you compare the AHCI Samsung 860 Evo with NVME Samsung 970 Evo you will see that the 970 Evo cost a lot more for the same amount of space and if its not faster for your use case why bother

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post #16 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-10-2019, 09:07 AM - Thread Starter
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[Edit: I just realized you're the one who wrote that topic you linked to, whoops.]

Does it make a difference that I have 3 of these Hydro-Dynamic bearing fans (one for intake, one for outtake, and one for the CPU on the 212)? Link: https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B008N323U6/

They're supposed to last 20 years, be super quiet, and push a lot of air.
That combined with my 212.. you're saying it's still bad enough to warrant spending more money on a new heat sink for a new CPU?

Like I said, even the guy you linked to wasn't saying as far as I can tell you need to replace it if you already have a 212, only that if you're getting a new heat sink, instead of getting the 212 the cost is better spent on newer better heat sinks. I'm guessing the temperature difference isn't great enough to warrant buying a new heat sink if that's true, assuming you already own a 212.

Regarding the SSD, that seems like good info, I'll definitely keep that in mind to save some money as I likely won't need the speed of NVMe.

Last edited by dimeuno; 01-10-2019 at 09:22 AM.
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post #17 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-10-2019, 09:18 AM
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If you are using better fans thats another story its still not a very good cooler but better fans helps a little bit

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post #18 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-10-2019, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
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I guess it depends largely on what my temperatures are like with the new CPU, whether I'm overclocking it (probably not for a Ryzen since I've heard they don't benefit much from it?), whether it will affect game performance for the better, and whether a new heat sink will extend the lifespan of the CPU significantly compared to sticking with the 212.
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post #19 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-10-2019, 09:27 AM
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Agree 100% with Shilka on the SSD front and the CM212 front.

X3440 vs X3470 (X3480 is not worth the premium over the X3470) is pretty minimal assuming you hit high temps before an FSB block. The X3440 has a 19x multi IIRC, so it would take a bit more FSB to get to 3.7 (195 vs the 185 you are using now). I had it in a lower end mobo than the one you had and I never had any issues. Reason I said the X3440 is that (for the most part) $20 USD is pretty much nothing, so if it turns out it does nothing for you, no big loss. Yes, the main difference is the extra threads, which should help out in GTA.

If I have the time today/this weekend, I can try to setup my old i7 920 and 3770k systems with my RX580 and let you know how big of a framerate increase there is (3770K should be pretty close to 4770K perf, and the 920 is slightly faster than the x3440 at stock).

I do not think it would be wise to get another 4 core/4 thread i5 no matter how 'new' it is (both Intel and AMD have 6 core CPUs as their 'mid' range products now).
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post #20 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-10-2019, 09:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Okay, so the X3440 is the same socket as the P7P55D I assume (so it will fit/work with my mobo)? Depending on your results it could be a good short-term boost to my CPU, so I feel more comfortable saving up for a brand new CPU/Mobo/RAM combo at some point in the future. And it sounds like you think the X3440 is most worth the money compared to higher end alternatives (like the X3470). Thank you for even considering doing that testing btw, and there's no rush, take your time.

Like I said the main issues with my CPU is the major stutters in the city, and it seems far more pronounced when flying around in a helicopter for example, in certain areas of the city, during the daytime (nighttime I get mostly smooth performance). Panning the camera around while flying during midday is the best way to replicate my performance issues in GTA5. Not sure if there's a difference between offline and online performance but I play GTA Online a lot. There's certain areas when driving that are pretty bad during the day.

Oh and my performance goes up considerably when I'm in a solo lobby (still stutters/hitches a lot though in the same situations), and goes down a lot when other players are present, depending on the number of players (some lobbies are better performing than others though, even with the same number of players.. which could have something to do with modders affecting performance).

As far as I'm aware, at least it's my feeling based on what I've seen while playing, GTA5 is kind of weird in that no matter where people are on the map, it seems to affect your CPU performance, because I guess your computer is still keeping track of events happening all over the map on some level.

And yeah it sounds like you agree getting a new heat sink would be worth it, is there any reasons why? My last comment listed the reasons I could imagine it would be worth doing so, if it is.

Last edited by dimeuno; 01-10-2019 at 09:52 AM.
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