Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community - Reply to Topic

Thread: [Computerworld] With DaaS Windows coming, say goodbye to your PC as you know it Reply to Thread
Title:
Message:

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in


  Additional Options
Miscellaneous Options

  Topic Review (Newest First)
08-18-2018 11:55 PM
randomizer
Quote: Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post
SLAs are a thing (pretty much the thing) in the service sector and Microsoft knows it. They think they can be faster, better, or at least cheaper than people like me.
Well I certainly hope they're not faster or better. The support staff for Dynamics CRM nearly broke the calmest person in my office after a 2 hour phone call that was going nowhere.
08-18-2018 09:34 AM
xJumper
Quote: Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post
I am going to ignore the rest because you are not thinking this though from the correct mind set. You still can not see out of your "average user" bubble. This is a business expansion by Microsoft after seeing the lucrative services sector and wanting a piece of the pie that companies like HP, NTT (previously Dell), CDW, and others are gorging themselves on, not because they think it would be good for you. Your complaints largely line up with "Corsairs main business is RAM, and it's good enough, they don't need to make peripherals too, it doesn't help me". That isn't the point. It helps them.

They already have top-5 hosting world wide with Azure, they already have the best internal website management tool on the planet (Sharepoint) along with the best productivity software available on almost any device, and the best user/domain tools. Their thinking is why should other people make money supporting our stuff, we could totally to that, and cheaper and easier than they can. And they would be correct, for the most part.

Remember the cost of an IT team... Even just one good sysadmin to run your entire company, assuming it's small enough, is going to be $70k+/yr on the low end, plus benefits. If they go on vacation, you're boned, so make that two. They can probably support up to a couple hundred people if they're all at one location. $700-1000/user/yr only for the support staff, does not include hardware/hosting. Microsoft wants to sell you their services for a fraction of that.

And for the record, no large company uses the Windows key the hardware comes with. That's what KMS and an imaging server are for, along with the service contract they pay Microsoft for to have better support, because the lowly level of support that comes with your OEM key is outright useless when you need the problem fixed now. If you think that's real support, you have absolutely no idea at all how deep this rabbit hole goes. SLAs are a thing (pretty much the thing) in the service sector and Microsoft knows it. They think they can be faster, better, or at least cheaper than people like me.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/...rceorigin=esmc
https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/support/plans/
https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/.../ff793434.aspx
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/sccm/
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/sccm/mdt/

I'm going to assume from your posts that you had no idea these support infrastructures were in place already? Because if you think the majority of Microsoft's money came from OEM licences, there is a loooooooooot of reading for you to do. Microsoft licensing and support contracts are about as confusing as can be honestly, and any simplification is welcome.

I wasn't aware and figured they did make most of their money from the consumer desktop market Microsoft tax as always. I could see software as a service in the business sector but for private citizens/typical consumers I think it would be a cash grab if it ever got pushed on us.
08-18-2018 08:15 AM
KyadCK
Quote: Originally Posted by xJumper View Post
What you just said, I'd say that's what they want you to believe; that's exactly the way I would say it if I was trying to sell it to someone.

You have to ask yourself, what problem is "Windows DaaS" going to solve? Your average guy/small business/soccer mom/whatever, buys an e-machines and it's got a Windows boot partition, they turn it on and it works. Currently Microsoft has had the model of supporting OS's for roughly ten years, likely longer than whatever hardware the OS is running on will last. The thing auto-updates, does all the stuff it needs and if you really want you can call up Microsoft/register on the help desk/forums or whatever they call it. What possible advantage to the consumer does a potential "Windows DaaS" have over that?

As for the business model, the user paid for the PC in full, it came with Windows from the volume license the OEM built in and Microsoft collects it's ONE TIME tax from that. That business model got them to where they are today, a company worth billions so I'd say it's not that bad.

If we pretend that the hardware somehow outlasts the software and people still want to update to the newest thing. Once again, what advantage does O365 + Windows DaaS have really? If you had Office 2013 and you now want Office 2016, you go to Office Depot, pick up the box off the shelf, pay for it then pop the CD in your computer and press install. Much full blooded IT support infrastructure indeed and that's pretending you can't do it from the various ways you can while sitting at your computer, like clicking "update", paying by CC and then it does it's thing and updates.

I see the "Windows DaaS"/Software as a Service model as nothing more than greed and another attempt at bending the consumer over. Even though the old model is perfectly fine, they are purposefully pushing it to the wayside as this newer model stands to make them more money. Microsoft "learned" if you wanna call it that from XP. They collected a one time, say fifty bucks off OEM licenses and then had to support an OS for almost 15 years. They don't want that anymore. You see everything going this direction, even video games. There's no more pay once, play for 5 years or more and it's just "expected" that the developer will continue to support said product forever. It's all about micro-transactions, continuous yearly releases, etc.

Take guys like me, I used Office 97 (still a very capable office suite) until office 2007 (still more than good enough for today) and then used that until very recently. In that same time span I bought Windows XP, then Windows Vista and rode that to the very end until I ditched the MS train all together. So in almost a 20 year timespan they got four volume license taxes out of me.

To me that sounds great, they made a quality product and I used it until the wheels fell off, but Microsoft now seems to hate that when they could do some rolling release yearly sub model with a constant revenue stream after tricking people into thinking that they constantly need to get the latest and greatest thing. I'd wager most people using Office 2016 or Office 365 could probably accomplish everything on Office 2003, for everything but the top 5% most intense office suite power users that software would still be good enough. As for the OS, it's ALREADY supported and has auto-updates for years to come.

I see it as them setting the bar low and testing the waters. They want us to give up our expectations of the old business model (one time fee, expected long term support). Once enough people jump in on the band wagon and they can "pull an Android" on the desktop market, say physical one time copy gets 2 years of support and thats it; only then will a subscription model sort of make sense and have "real" advantages but only from our own doing.
I am going to ignore the rest because you are not thinking this though from the correct mind set. You still can not see out of your "average user" bubble. This is a business expansion by Microsoft after seeing the lucrative services sector and wanting a piece of the pie that companies like HP, NTT (previously Dell), CDW, and others are gorging themselves on, not because they think it would be good for you. Your complaints largely line up with "Corsairs main business is RAM, and it's good enough, they don't need to make peripherals too, it doesn't help me". That isn't the point. It helps them.

They already have top-5 hosting world wide with Azure, they already have the best internal website management tool on the planet (Sharepoint) along with the best productivity software available on almost any device, and the best user/domain tools. Their thinking is why should other people make money supporting our stuff, we could totally to that, and cheaper and easier than they can. And they would be correct, for the most part.

Remember the cost of an IT team... Even just one good sysadmin to run your entire company, assuming it's small enough, is going to be $70k+/yr on the low end, plus benefits. If they go on vacation, you're boned, so make that two. They can probably support up to a couple hundred people if they're all at one location. $700-1000/user/yr only for the support staff, does not include hardware/hosting. Microsoft wants to sell you their services for a fraction of that.

And for the record, no large company uses the Windows key the hardware comes with. That's what KMS and an imaging server are for, along with the service contract they pay Microsoft for to have better support, because the lowly level of support that comes with your OEM key is outright useless when you need the problem fixed now. If you think that's real support, you have absolutely no idea at all how deep this rabbit hole goes. SLAs are a thing (pretty much the thing) in the service sector and Microsoft knows it. They think they can be faster, better, or at least cheaper than people like me.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/...rceorigin=esmc
https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/support/plans/
https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/.../ff793434.aspx
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/sccm/
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/sccm/mdt/

I'm going to assume from your posts that you had no idea these support infrastructures were in place already? Because if you think the majority of Microsoft's money came from OEM licences, there is a loooooooooot of reading for you to do. Microsoft licensing and support contracts are about as confusing as can be honestly, and any simplification is welcome.
08-17-2018 09:39 PM
xJumper
Quote: Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post
On the flip side there are people like you who can not think beyond their little usage bubble (The PCs you use and maintain) as to the bigger picture.

Windows DaaS is not for you. It does not replace standalone Windows, just like Office 365 did not replace Office 2016. It is directly complementary to Office 365, for companies or people who want the full blown tool sets without needing the support staff to manage it, or worry about falling behind, or about not adhering to the new standards. They want it to just work, and to extremely busy people with little time for themselves, or companies that can not afford an internal IT team, this small amount of money is easy to part with.

Azure + O365 + Windows DaaS = effectively full blooded IT support infrastructure, complete with a help desk. Microsoft is getting into the services business.
What you just said, I'd say that's what they want you to believe; that's exactly the way I would say it if I was trying to sell it to someone.

You have to ask yourself, what problem is "Windows DaaS" going to solve? Your average guy/small business/soccer mom/whatever, buys an e-machines and it's got a Windows boot partition, they turn it on and it works. Currently Microsoft has had the model of supporting OS's for roughly ten years, likely longer than whatever hardware the OS is running on will last. The thing auto-updates, does all the stuff it needs and if you really want you can call up Microsoft/register on the help desk/forums or whatever they call it. What possible advantage to the consumer does a potential "Windows DaaS" have over that?

As for the business model, the user paid for the PC in full, it came with Windows from the volume license the OEM built in and Microsoft collects it's ONE TIME tax from that. That business model got them to where they are today, a company worth billions so I'd say it's not that bad.

If we pretend that the hardware somehow outlasts the software and people still want to update to the newest thing. Once again, what advantage does O365 + Windows DaaS have really? If you had Office 2013 and you now want Office 2016, you go to Office Depot, pick up the box off the shelf, pay for it then pop the CD in your computer and press install. Much full blooded IT support infrastructure indeed and that's pretending you can't do it from the various ways you can while sitting at your computer, like clicking "update", paying by CC and then it does it's thing and updates.

I see the "Windows DaaS"/Software as a Service model as nothing more than greed and another attempt at bending the consumer over. Even though the old model is perfectly fine, they are purposefully pushing it to the wayside as this newer model stands to make them more money. Microsoft "learned" if you wanna call it that from XP. They collected a one time, say fifty bucks off OEM licenses and then had to support an OS for almost 15 years. They don't want that anymore. You see everything going this direction, even video games. There's no more pay once, play for 5 years or more and it's just "expected" that the developer will continue to support said product forever. It's all about micro-transactions, continuous yearly releases, etc.

Take guys like me, I used Office 97 (still a very capable office suite) until office 2007 (still more than good enough for today) and then used that until very recently. In that same time span I bought Windows XP, then Windows Vista and rode that to the very end until I ditched the MS train all together. So in almost a 20 year timespan they got four volume license taxes out of me.

To me that sounds great, they made a quality product and I used it until the wheels fell off, but Microsoft now seems to hate that when they could do some rolling release yearly sub model with a constant revenue stream after tricking people into thinking that they constantly need to get the latest and greatest thing. I'd wager most people using Office 2016 or Office 365 could probably accomplish everything on Office 2003, for everything but the top 5% most intense office suite power users that software would still be good enough. As for the OS, it's ALREADY supported and has auto-updates for years to come.

I see it as them setting the bar low and testing the waters. They want us to give up our expectations of the old business model (one time fee, expected long term support). Once enough people jump in on the band wagon and they can "pull an Android" on the desktop market, say physical one time copy gets 2 years of support and thats it; only then will a subscription model sort of make sense and have "real" advantages but only from our own doing.
08-17-2018 10:18 AM
Beagle Box VMWare or VirtualBox for Windows and old PC games?
08-17-2018 07:36 AM
Xyxox
Quote: Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post
Azure + O365 + Windows DaaS = effectively full blooded IT support infrastructure, complete with a help desk. Microsoft is getting into the services business.
AND WE HAVE A WINNER!!!! Yep, that's what it's all about, and the service model scales nicely from very small businesses all the way up to large globl organizations. Microsoft saw what others have done and doesn't want to miss the services train.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beagle Box View Post
Which NVidia drivers does Mint use? NVidia doesn't have an Ubuntu-specific driver, but does for other distros...
From the Linux Mint 19 release notes:

Quote:
If your graphics card is from NVIDIA, once in Linux Mint, perform the following steps to install the NVIDIA drivers:

Run the Driver Manager
Choose the NVIDIA drivers and wait for them to be installed
Reboot the computer
https://www.linuxmint.com/rel_tara_cinnamon.php

Quote: Originally Posted by Beagle Box View Post
Just built the wife a new W10 box for gaming, she's still on W7 at the bank. If I can get her machine to reliably play games, she'll be cool with a switch to linux. I'm going dual boot on my machine just to see if that's feasible that we both slip out of the MS cattle drive for good.
Honestly, gaming on Linux is a mixed bag, and some times a game may work great until an update for the game comes out. This is another reason I keep a Windows box because some games just don't do well in Linux with Windows wrappers. The issues are wide and varied, too. The difference for me is, Linux is for work and Windows is for play.
08-17-2018 02:39 AM
randomizer
Quote: Originally Posted by Beagle Box View Post
Which NVidia drivers does Mint use? NVidia doesn't have an Ubuntu-specific driver, but does for other distros...
NVIDIA's drivers are largely platform-agnostic (the code is mostly the same for both Windows and Linux), so the differences between distros is probably just in the packaging.
08-16-2018 08:39 PM
Beagle Box
Quote: Originally Posted by Xyxox View Post
Linux Mint Cinnamon is the distro I would give anybody who had never been exposed to computers before. Absolutely the best OS for somebody who wants something that just works with minimal effort. Better than Windows or macOS.
Which NVidia drivers does Mint use? NVidia doesn't have an Ubuntu-specific driver, but does for other distros...

Quote:
I think I'll always keep a Windows box around for gaming, and my wife will never move to Libreoffice like I have because she has always used Word for legal documents (she's an attorney).
Just built the wife a new W10 box for gaming, she's still on W7 at the bank. If I can get her machine to reliably play games, she'll be cool with a switch to linux. I'm going dual boot on my machine just to see if that's feasible that we both slip out of the MS cattle drive for good.
08-16-2018 06:01 PM
KyadCK
Quote: Originally Posted by xJumper View Post
I don't know how people continue to defend the new business model Microsoft seems to be pushing all around. Ten years ago or more on this very forum if you would have said that software as service/data mining analytics Windows/OS's was a good idea you would have got laughed at so hard.

While there are some with valid concerns and points, for a lot of people (the same kind that probably would have agreed with me a decade ago along with most people here back then) I think it's some kind of mental defensive mechanism. Even though deep down they know it's messed up, that they would rather not have it that way, etc. People basically cannot handle the alternative in their head. It would be great if there was some other magical OS that was just as good and slick/easy to use as Windows without all the crap by M$ but there isn't. So you either deal with reality, take it on the chin, use an OS or software that's different/harder or you make mental excuses for yourself, backpedal on what you would have said/believed a decade ago, the "it's not so bad after all" line of thinking and sort of self-justify it to yourself and others while using the said thing you would have sworn to never use/support.

Like another user here said, we see this stuff all the time. News reports come out and say FB did X, everyone is outraged and then everything goes back to normal with everyone on FB. Google does Y, same deal, lot's of talk but no action on anybody's part. Everyone just sort of mentally justifies it to themselves somehow that it's normal and that's what allows companies to keep pushing the envelope on what we would have considered a ridiculous business model 10-15 years ago. Microsoft with Windows 10 and the future Windows DaaS is a prime example of that unfolding.
On the flip side there are people like you who can not think beyond their little usage bubble (The PCs you use and maintain) as to the bigger picture.

Windows DaaS is not for you. It does not replace standalone Windows, just like Office 365 did not replace Office 2016. It is directly complementary to Office 365, for companies or people who want the full blown tool sets without needing the support staff to manage it, or worry about falling behind, or about not adhering to the new standards. They want it to just work, and to extremely busy people with little time for themselves, or companies that can not afford an internal IT team, this small amount of money is easy to part with.

Azure + O365 + Windows DaaS = effectively full blooded IT support infrastructure, complete with a help desk. Microsoft is getting into the services business.
08-13-2018 06:52 PM
xJumper I don't know how people continue to defend the new business model Microsoft seems to be pushing all around. Ten years ago or more on this very forum if you would have said that software as service/data mining analytics Windows/OS's was a good idea you would have got laughed at so hard.

While there are some with valid concerns and points, for a lot of people (the same kind that probably would have agreed with me a decade ago along with most people here back then) I think it's some kind of mental defensive mechanism. Even though deep down they know it's messed up, that they would rather not have it that way, etc. People basically cannot handle the alternative in their head. It would be great if there was some other magical OS that was just as good and slick/easy to use as Windows without all the crap by M$ but there isn't. So you either deal with reality, take it on the chin, use an OS or software that's different/harder or you make mental excuses for yourself, backpedal on what you would have said/believed a decade ago, the "it's not so bad after all" line of thinking and sort of self-justify it to yourself and others while using the said thing you would have sworn to never use/support.

Like another user here said, we see this stuff all the time. News reports come out and say FB did X, everyone is outraged and then everything goes back to normal with everyone on FB. Google does Y, same deal, lot's of talk but no action on anybody's part. Everyone just sort of mentally justifies it to themselves somehow that it's normal and that's what allows companies to keep pushing the envelope on what we would have considered a ridiculous business model 10-15 years ago. Microsoft with Windows 10 and the future Windows DaaS is a prime example of that unfolding.
This thread has more than 10 replies. Click here to review the whole thread.

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off