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Thread: [Ars Technica] After $5 billion EU antitrust fine, Google will start charging for Android apps Reply to Thread
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  Topic Review (Newest First)
11-07-2018 11:08 AM
SuperZan Google wanted to have their cake and eat it too. They wanted the benefits of open-source development but they also wanted to monetise the end product as much as possible. A big part of that is 'encouraging' use of their storefront as well as their d̶a̶t̶a̶ ̶c̶o̶l̶l̶e̶c̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶t̶o̶o̶l̶s̶ useful apps. They designed the entire model around one paradigm, and then have gradually attempted to shift it to the competition's to increase their take. Google was fully cognisant of the fact that their model would lead to significant Android (and thus, Google) operations in the EU whilst knowing full well the difference in consumer protection laws, so I'm not going to cry tears for the world's preeminent data merchants with the revenue of a medium-sized nation's GDP.
11-07-2018 10:15 AM
epic1337
Quote: Originally Posted by Mrzev View Post
Also along with what the article mentions, apps cant rely on services being there. If Samsung doesnt install google maps, then that ____ app cant give you a button that sets the path in navigation because you dont have that app and it doesnt know ohh, i need to call ____ service instead and use _____ api. Simply put, it feels like having a bunch of stuff removed from the .Net api, and not on the new version... just straight up removed from all versions.

manufacturers would need to make a profile for their own Android fork for developers to work with, thats why you have apps that says "this isn't compatible with your device".
11-07-2018 09:38 AM
Mrzev I am late to the party on this news, but yup... if you want to provide an OS for companies to build stuff for, you gotta give everyone the option... Microsoft had this EXACT same thing happened to them, and why Apple doesn't have this issue.

This is a terrible thing IMO. OEM's want to add a bunch of crappy software to their Phone and make it impossible to remove, and this will let them do more. I have a Galaxy S9+ and it comes with a bunch of crap that i dont want and literally cant remove. I dont like their keyboard, and it took me a while to figure out how to change it back to the stock google version. They added their own clock app which i dont like as much either, but it took me a while to notice that it was their clock and not Googles clock.... the list goes on.

Also along with what the article mentions, apps cant rely on services being there. If Samsung doesnt install google maps, then that ____ app cant give you a button that sets the path in navigation because you dont have that app and it doesnt know ohh, i need to call ____ service instead and use _____ api. Simply put, it feels like having a bunch of stuff removed from the .Net api, and not on the new version... just straight up removed from all versions.

There might be some good that comes from this... but i feel at least 90% is going to end up giving you a worse product.
10-31-2018 07:50 AM
Snyderman34
Quote: Originally Posted by Omega X View Post
Google dominates Search and browsers with Chrome and ensures every advantage by being bundled with Google Play Services then demand all or nothing. Can't run Chrome without Play Services, can't use Google Search app or Assistant without Play Services. You have to use an alternative store, browser and search engine and you can't mix or match.


By contrast Apple only makes iOS and OSX and their hardware only runs their OS software. There are no other iPhone/Mac manufacturers. The only way Apple could get hit by this is that they use their leverage as the dominant PC/Smartphone maker to ensure that another software/service always had the advantage on their OS. Fortunately, Apple doesn't dominate anything other than profit margins. If it were to become a monopoly, then what it does with Safari now would become illegal.
Quote: Originally Posted by xJumper View Post
Google purposefully gimps other app stores. If you go install the Aptoide app store, F-Droid, Yalp, etc you'll find everything needs to be updated manually and a user is shown the "install from unknown sources" prompt every time as a way to discourage them from doing so.

Google Play on Android by default runs as a system app, it can update in the background and without you ever seeing anything, very smooth and slick just like everything else you likely use. Unless you get into modding your phone extensively, rooting, etc you cannot get any third party store to run at the system privilege level. Even if you install another app store and are willing to deal with that, you cannot uninstall Google Play/Google Play services or anything else Google. Not to mention Google is waging a war on rooted/modded Android users as well.

Google also bans a lot of apps that interfere with their way of making money. Net Guard, which was popular firewall app that let the average user firewall in apps phoning home/data mining through the phones VPN function was pulled from the Google Play app store for some mysterious reason until enough uproar from the dev community brought it back.

Google's security model is stupid. It considers anything not from Google Play to be unsafe by prompting users about the dangers of "installing from unknown sources" from something like F-Droid which is 1000% safer than the malware/adware infested apps okay'ed by Google in their app store. They push this mentality that "if it's not from us, it's unsafe" which is a dumb mentality to promote from a security standpoint. They are closing in the walls on rooted users apparently in the name of security yet rooting your phone and using proper firewall apps (e.g ip tables control) is the only way to actually keep your phone secure from the various adware/malware data mining crap that phones come bloated with.

Google is definitely misusing their position to stifle the competition, their setup with Google Play/Google Play Services is like a modern day smart phone version of U.S. vs Microsoft.





Your phone is probably still loaded with Google services and you likely use a bunch of them on a daily basis. Google Cloud Messaging, Google Play Services, etc... Most people and what they do on their phones straight up won't work without any Google.

Alright, that makes a lot more sense. Thanks for the explanations!
10-30-2018 09:53 PM
xJumper
Quote: Originally Posted by Snyderman34 View Post
people can just go to the app store for alternatives can't they? Apple only has a single store front (that I know of), but I'm not sure how either would be preventing competition unless they were actively keeping alternatives off their respective stores (I feel like I'm missing something, so I apologize if this is a dumb question).
Google purposefully gimps other app stores. If you go install the Aptoide app store, F-Droid, Yalp, etc you'll find everything needs to be updated manually and a user is shown the "install from unknown sources" prompt every time as a way to discourage them from doing so.

Google Play on Android by default runs as a system app, it can update in the background and without you ever seeing anything, very smooth and slick just like everything else you likely use. Unless you get into modding your phone extensively, rooting, etc you cannot get any third party store to run at the system privilege level. Even if you install another app store and are willing to deal with that, you cannot uninstall Google Play/Google Play services or anything else Google. Not to mention Google is waging a war on rooted/modded Android users as well.

Google also bans a lot of apps that interfere with their way of making money. Net Guard, which was popular firewall app that let the average user firewall in apps phoning home/data mining through the phones VPN function was pulled from the Google Play app store for some mysterious reason until enough uproar from the dev community brought it back.

Google's security model is stupid. It considers anything not from Google Play to be unsafe by prompting users about the dangers of "installing from unknown sources" from something like F-Droid which is 1000% safer than the malware/adware infested apps okay'ed by Google in their app store. They push this mentality that "if it's not from us, it's unsafe" which is a dumb mentality to promote from a security standpoint. They are closing in the walls on rooted users apparently in the name of security yet rooting your phone and using proper firewall apps (e.g ip tables control) is the only way to actually keep your phone secure from the various adware/malware data mining crap that phones come bloated with.

Google is definitely misusing their position to stifle the competition, their setup with Google Play/Google Play Services is like a modern day smart phone version of U.S. vs Microsoft.


Quote: Originally Posted by .Sup View Post
I don't need any google apps, except YouTube maybe, But not need, juts want.

Your phone is probably still loaded with Google services and you likely use a bunch of them on a daily basis. Google Cloud Messaging, Google Play Services, etc... Most people and what they do on their phones straight up won't work without any Google.
10-30-2018 03:02 PM
Omega X
Quote: Originally Posted by Snyderman34 View Post
Wouldn't it make sense for their apps to be included with their OS though? Even if it's part of the agreement that manufacturers have to include their apps, people can just go to the app store for alternatives can't they? Apple only has a single store front (that I know of), but I'm not sure how either would be preventing competition unless they were actively keeping alternatives off their respective stores (I feel like I'm missing something, so I apologize if this is a dumb question).

Google dominates Search and browsers with Chrome and ensures every advantage by being bundled with Google Play Services then demand all or nothing. Can't run Chrome without Play Services, can't use Google Search app or Assistant without Play Services. You have to use an alternative store, browser and search engine and you can't mix or match.


By contrast Apple only makes iOS and OSX and their hardware only runs their OS software. There are no other iPhone/Mac manufacturers. The only way Apple could get hit by this is that they use their leverage as the dominant PC/Smartphone maker to ensure that another software/service always had the advantage on their OS. Fortunately, Apple doesn't dominate anything other than profit margins. If it were to become a monopoly, then what it does with Safari now would become illegal.
10-30-2018 08:13 AM
Snyderman34
Quote: Originally Posted by matthew87 View Post
My understanding was Google's contracts/licensing with OEMS to use Android mandated that Playstore, Google Apps, Chrome etc HAD to be included. That the inclusion of these programmes was mandatory for any OEM wishing to license and use Android.

On one hand, seems fair enough. Google fund the development of Android and their ROI comes via their apps.

On the other, Android is the most dominant mobile OS in the world and locking / forcing a single store front, pro-actively preventing competition, there is a decent argument that its monopolistic and anti-consumer.
Wouldn't it make sense for their apps to be included with their OS though? Even if it's part of the agreement that manufacturers have to include their apps, people can just go to the app store for alternatives can't they? Apple only has a single store front (that I know of), but I'm not sure how either would be preventing competition unless they were actively keeping alternatives off their respective stores (I feel like I'm missing something, so I apologize if this is a dumb question).
10-29-2018 08:53 PM
matthew87
Quote: Originally Posted by EniGma1987 View Post
The issue was that the EU was mad that Google was "pre-loading" the Android phones with the Play Store, Gmail, Chrome, google search, photos etc. All the Google default apps. Same way as Apple bundles Apple Maps, Apple Photos, App Store/ iTunes Store, Safari, etc. Only apparently The EU must like Apple more and want to stifle competition. That is the only explanation I can think of as to why they decided to fine Google 5 billion Dollars and leave Apple alone for doing literally the exact same thing. Anyway, the EU says Google isnt allowed to put their apps on phones anymore for free. That is the specific thing here, they cant do it for free. So either manufacturers have to not have their phoens come with the normal apps, and drive more people over to iPhones that have functionality out of the box, or make Android phones cost more to raise them to more iPhone like prices. It really just seems like the EU showing huge favoritism and trying to push as many people to Apple as possible. There really can be no other explanation when Google has done nothing with Android that Apple hasnt already done and still does with the iPhone.
My understanding was Google's contracts/licensing with OEMS to use Android mandated that Playstore, Google Apps, Chrome etc HAD to be included. That the inclusion of these programmes was mandatory for any OEM wishing to license and use Android.

On one hand, seems fair enough. Google fund the development of Android and their ROI comes via their apps.

On the other, Android is the most dominant mobile OS in the world and locking / forcing a single store front, pro-actively preventing competition, there is a decent argument that its monopolistic and anti-consumer.
10-29-2018 01:33 PM
bucdan This is silly. Google can't put their own software in their own software. They better go after Apple for this as well. First Microsoft, then Google. EU is overstepping this. There is no logic in which this makes sense. They provide what is free from them for you to use. If you don't want to use it, then go download another one. I would understand if Google prevented the download of other browsers or searches, but from the looks of it, they aren't.

I bet Apple, Firefox, and MS will be happy that their search and browsers are now options on the install.

All Google provides on their platform is a base, it isn't a forced gridlock into their stuff only; so users are already free to jump around as they wish. Next thing you know, EU will sue Google because the Google Pixel can only be used with Android and not some other 3rd party OS that isn't a fork, or even iOS.

The EU needs to dissolve.
10-29-2018 12:24 PM
.Sup I don't need any google apps, except YouTube maybe, But not need, juts want.
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