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Thread: New Ninox mouse "Ninox Astrum" - with swapable shells Reply to Thread
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  Topic Review (Newest First)
09-18-2019 09:35 AM
qsxcv nice, i like how everything is so modular. maybe in the future you can sell individual pcbs with different sensors or switches
09-18-2019 02:14 AM
bst
Quote: Originally Posted by ATH-YF View Post
..Crowdfunding?
(for this refunding in case of failure)

Why not starting a poll asking the backers (and another poll asking non backers) if they want the additional weight-reduced parts to be manufactured for the launch?
Even without buying the mouse I can surely donate a bit to help the project in this case.
Provide up-to-date news (with the video why not) of the weight challenge & link to this topic so they can get the whole situation.

Announcing ~65g upgrade, as a response of the issue, will be way more forgiving on the launch delay, It's surely worth trying.
Peoples who are waiting nervously will be very pleased with this & could feel less "left behind" by what is going on.
I was thinking that crowd funding would take too long, but thinking about it, it probably is the best way. I realised as long as it hits the goal (and exceeds to some safe margin), then I don't have to wait until the end to get the funds, because I have enough to do it already. I would still need those funds to come later because it would be needed to pay for the shipping costs, but I only need them at the end, when all the mice are finished.

Quote: Originally Posted by qsxcv View Post
84-85g is alright i suppose, as logi g pro is 83g
i guess it's sort of a mental thing, but 88g is close enough to 90 which feels like a tier up

i'm not sure what FR PCB means; i'm guessing right side button pcbs? since most people don't use right side buttons, that's a free 3g that could be saved by opening the mouse
I know what you mean, going 5g over doesn't seem so bad, but the extra 2-3 grams to 87-88, even though its "only" 2-3 grams, looks much worse.

I've attached a photo of the PCBs. FR PCB is the front right PCB, it has the front right button switch and scroll wheel switch, and FL PCB has the front left button switch and scroll wheel encoder.

The top PCB has the MCU, side buttons, DPI button, and RGB LED for the scroll wheel.
09-17-2019 07:54 PM
qsxcv
Quote: Originally Posted by bst View Post
The mouse is in bits at the moment because I just weighed each part, its coming out at 84.71g for the Alpha shell, 87.05g for the Beta shell, 86.74g for the Beta shell with the Gamma right side. (those weights include the magnets, and for the cable, I weighed one I had cut just after the stress relief).
84-85g is alright i suppose, as logi g pro is 83g
i guess it's sort of a mental thing, but 88g is close enough to 90 which feels like a tier up

i'm not sure what FR PCB means; i'm guessing right side button pcbs? since most people don't use right side buttons, that's a free 3g that could be saved by opening the mouse
09-17-2019 07:49 PM
ATH-YF
Quote:
But that means that if I charge $10 per shell, then it'll need to sell 800 of them to pay for the tooling. Then, if it doesn't reach 800, it'd be a pretty big problem because it won't be able to happen. If it gets close to the tooling cost its not so bad, but if it ends up just being a quarter then I don't think there would be enough funds to do it.
..Crowdfunding?
(for this refunding in case of failure)

Why not starting a poll asking the backers (and another poll asking non backers) if they want the additional weight-reduced parts to be manufactured for the launch?
Even without buying the mouse I can surely donate a bit to help the project in this case.
Provide up-to-date news (with the video why not) of the weight challenge & link to this topic so they can get the whole situation.

Announcing ~65g upgrade, as a response of the issue, will be way more forgiving on the launch delay, It's surely worth trying.
Peoples who are waiting nervously will be very pleased with this & could feel less "left behind" by what is going on.
09-17-2019 08:19 AM
bst
Quote: Originally Posted by chort View Post
3d printing it might be the way if it's cheap enough, not everyone have the ability or the availability to 3d print, so you shouldn't assume that.
Compared to injection molding, 3D printing is expensive and slow, when its for mass production.

Once you have the tooling for molding, the price for each part is tiny, and can make loads of them fast. But with 3D printing, its always slow and always expensive. Its much better for very small amounts.

I think most people should have access to some kind of 3D printer, like their friends, or some company on the internet like 3DHubs.

Quote: Originally Posted by SD2 View Post
@bst If I'd want to rubber coat new mouse parts, do you think regular rubber coat spray paint would do the trick?
I'm not sure, the rubber coating the factory uses is kind of like a soft touch coating, so not really rubber. I've never seen it on sale for the public before. I'll ask them about it and see what they say.

Probably the best one I know of is the clear matte fulldip or plastidip, you paint whatever colour you want underneath, then put on the clear rubber, or you can get someone to mix the colour into the clear, but usually you need a proper spray gun for that.
09-17-2019 07:43 AM
SD2 @bst If I'd want to rubber coat new mouse parts, do you think regular rubber coat spray paint would do the trick?
09-17-2019 06:43 AM
chort
Quote: Originally Posted by bst View Post
It's a good idea, but its quite difficult to figure out how I'd do it.

Firstly a couple of points:
- They would have to be injection molded, so I think the cost for the tooling would be around $8000 (it could be less, not sure until I ask). Its pointless to try and 3D print it, unless the demand is really low, and it wouldn't be any different to people just using 3D hubs themselves, they could even print it now.
- I don't think time is as much of an issue as I thought it'd be, because it could be tooled when the mouse is being assembled, and then just put in the boxes at the end, or given its own box if its an add on.

The problem is how to get the funds for it.

If I add it as a perk, then it messes up how to add it in the box, because some people will buy the perk, and some won't, and I can't really have two separate boxes, I mean I could but with all the different colours already, it'd be a nightmare.

So I think it is best for it to be an add on, with free shipping (since the only people who'd buy it would have already bought the mouse).

But that means that if I charge $10 per shell, then it'll need to sell 800 of them to pay for the tooling. Then, if it doesn't reach 800, it'd be a pretty big problem because it won't be able to happen. If it gets close to the tooling cost its not so bad, but if it ends up just being a quarter then I don't think there would be enough funds to do it.

I'll look into it though. If anyone has any ideas I'm all ears
3d printing it might be the way if it's cheap enough, not everyone have the ability or the availability to 3d print, so you shouldn't assume that.
09-17-2019 06:20 AM
bst
Quote: Originally Posted by SD2 View Post
If you could just charge more for an option to get the shape with holes in it in the box, that'd already be great, as it'll probably get more people interested too.
It's a good idea, but its quite difficult to figure out how I'd do it.

Firstly a couple of points:
- They would have to be injection molded, so I think the cost for the tooling would be around $8000 (it could be less, not sure until I ask). Its pointless to try and 3D print it, unless the demand is really low, and it wouldn't be any different to people just using 3D hubs themselves, they could even print it now.
- I don't think time is as much of an issue as I thought it'd be, because it could be tooled when the mouse is being assembled, and then just put in the boxes at the end, or given its own box if its an add on.

The problem is how to get the funds for it.

If I add it as a perk, then it messes up how to add it in the box, because some people will buy the perk, and some won't, and I can't really have two separate boxes, I mean I could but with all the different colours already, it'd be a nightmare.

So I think it is best for it to be an add on, with free shipping (since the only people who'd buy it would have already bought the mouse).

But that means that if I charge $10 per shell, then it'll need to sell 800 of them to pay for the tooling. Then, if it doesn't reach 800, it'd be a pretty big problem because it won't be able to happen. If it gets close to the tooling cost its not so bad, but if it ends up just being a quarter then I don't think there would be enough funds to do it.

I'll look into it though. If anyone has any ideas I'm all ears
09-17-2019 05:52 AM
SD2 If you could just charge more for an option to get the shape with holes in it in the box, that'd already be great, as it'll probably get more people interested too.
09-17-2019 04:48 AM
bst
Quote: Originally Posted by RaleighStClair View Post
@bst sent you a PM for a refund on the Astrum, could you send me a PM.


Thanks.
Hi, I'm sorry I didn't reply to your PM yet. Its not so easy to refund because I can't directly refund back to your card, it has to be by bank transfer.

Also its difficult to refund for the reason of not wanting the perk anymore, because if I refund you, then other people might start to want one too. At some point I have to say no because it puts the project in danger, and I can't refund everyone, so it would be a disaster where lots of people don't get their money back. So it is better to say no straight away, IMO.

Having said that, if you have a good reason, like maybe you're getting evicted because you can't pay rent, or some other serious reason you might need the money back, then I will make an exception. But I would need proof, because, then anyone can just say, "I'm getting evicted", and its the same problem as before - if at some point I would have to ask for proof, then I should always ask for it. Sorry

Quote: Originally Posted by qsxcv View Post
1. you might try working with a thinner pcb. logitech uses very thin (like 0.8mm or something) pcbs in their wireless mice.
2. idk how strong magnets you want but the total weight of magnets in the mouse shouldn't be over 2g
likewise the weight of the section of cable inside the mouse shouldn't be very much...
3. i think shell thickness should be responsible for most of the difference.

i feel it should be possible for to achieve <80g but it seems like the risk is with communicating with the factory and possibly further delays?
since they managed an increase in the weight without your asking, maybe just express to them that you'd like keep weight to <80g or as low as possible, and have them figure it out instead of telling them anything too specific...
1. I have talked to the factory about making the PCB thinner a while ago, just because, why not But they said the thinnest they can go is 1.2mm. At the time I didn't bother with it because it doesn't save much weight. It might be a bit tricky to do it now though, because it means changing quite a few parts, all the PCB holders have to be adjusted to suit the new height (everything has to be raised 0.4mm). I think maybe its a delay risk. One thing I can do from looking at the PCB is put some holes in it, there are some areas in the top PCB which are blank.

2. Yes I weighed them, they're 1.12g, so not really a big deal.

3. Yes, it's just lots of incremental bits on the shell, and the PCB went up a couple of grams since last time.

The mouse is in bits at the moment because I just weighed each part, its coming out at 84.71g for the Alpha shell, 87.05g for the Beta shell, 86.74g for the Beta shell with the Gamma right side. (those weights include the magnets, and for the cable, I weighed one I had cut just after the stress relief).

A full cover honeycomb 3D print of the Beta shell leaves the original parts at 44g (it allows removing a lot), and the 3D printed cover is 15g, so works out at 59g total. Here is what is removed for this part: https://snipboard.io/W9rap4.jpg
It'd be really nice to injection mold it and include it in the box, but don't have the funds unfortunately.

Heres a link to a spreadsheet with all the different weights broken down, if anyone wants to look at it. You can check tickboxes to add/remove parts, and change the weights to see how it affects things:
https://we.tl/t-GQSUI5nx7x
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