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  Topic Review (Newest First)
11-13-2019 01:24 PM
Dell_Analyst
Quote: Originally Posted by parityboy View Post
@thread

One area where AMD really needs to step up is in its marketing of Threadripper. People are/were building EPYC-based workstations for professional use, when they could have been using Threadripper instead, but I suspect it's because

a) The "gaming" look of marketed Threadripper solutions e.g. Alienware
b) Uncertainty of ECC memory support
c) failure to get the likes of Dell, HP and Lenovo on-board with more serious-looking solutions.

I have no idea if these issues have all been ironed out, but to my mind they were very damaging to the Threadripper marketing image.

I am not aware of a single Threadripper system that we sell OEM. I will go check but I dont think such a system exists. I know that we have Alienware systems with the 2950 in them, but for commercial or consumer use I don't know that we sell a system with Threadripper in it.

I just checked our sales. We do not sell a single desktop system with AMD threadripper or Ryzen that is not classified as Alienware.

We do sell some Inspirons with the AMD Ryzen processors, but I would always recommend a latitude or XPS system over Inspiron if you need a notebook. i wish we sold Latitude or XPS (Precision) systems with AMD processors in them.
11-09-2019 03:11 PM
uBronan
Quote: Originally Posted by Solohuman View Post
Yes indeed, that is at the heart of whether or not gamers upgrade to this new platform. But I suppose hardware vendors like AMD have to put the gear out there first before game devs can take advantage of it.
There are many tasks which will benefit from 8 channel memory but most of them are scientific and are almost all products normal human beings hardly ever encounter.
All these programs are often custom made products which do insane complex calculations and i actually often had to buy these heavy workstations with thousands of dollars costing gpu co-processors some even up to 6 cards in them.
But the most of them which i ordered where made with 2 or 4 AMD or nvidia cards for these tasks, these enterprise computers are for normal tasks hardly any use.
One example of that is/was the long time called not so fast Itanium based workstations, but i disagree with all people calling these slow, they where super machines capable of much more than we gave them credit for.
The problem was that they can not be used by consumers, because the simulation of windows on them did not work well.
Its not the cpu which was bad it was the not so good running os (windows) which held back this superfast cpu, so i am kinda waiting to see how well the latest AMD monster cpu will do in the same tests which have been tested on the Itanium machines as well.

Nevertheless for most tasks normal users do 4 channel memory is in most cases already overkill , but yes 8 channel memory is only needed at the most demanding workstations on the planet.
In the work i did i have been running many of these super workstations ranging from 1 to 4 cpu and all multi core machine which almost always had ECC memory in them often with loads of memory per cpu.
Yes in many cases they where even more powerful than servers which served many hundreds of people working on them.
I actually had to replace a few times a server and used one of the workstations from our labs to run that tasks and often people told me that they did not know what i did but many tasks ran faster.

It was allways hard to explain to them that such a much smaller machine than the actual server was being faster, but also had to explain that this machine actually costed about 10 times more than the normal server.
So at the end they understood that keeping this machines working for their department would become way too expensive.
Its like using a formula one car to go shopping by the supermarket, and also you have a big chance that it will be gone when your return outside .
These are often the TOP in performance for those tasks with the price tag to match.
So totally useless for those which can not even get 8c/16t of these machines stressed ever, these are the ones we never see in the wild.
In most cases these machines run with very special software and will not easily be replaced so they keep running.
On my department i had 4 machines which was still running on os/2 and we all knew replacing them would be very costly so they will keep running as long as the replacement parts i bought will be available.
Even now after i am no longer working there the machine is still doing its work like no time has paste
So use most enterprise keep them running till they die, or contain very confidential information which never will go out of the companies/governments, in my case they where brought to be destroyed by a specialist company to strip and destroy them after i cleared any info from them.

Anyway that does not say these monster machines could not be used for other tasks however in most cases they simply are not going to perform the same as normal use products.
Hell many programs probably will crash if you try to run on them at all, and i have to warn people who think they can run them for the tasks they can run.

Most of the time they are not the most power efficient as well, actually turning them on could pop your breakers often if you try them at home .
Most of them actually have huge power supplies, i actually still got a few of them. One of them being 220 volt 3200 watt which would pop your breaker when its testing if all is ok if any other device is running on the same breaker.
I have used a few times to run a gpu cluster to work on a boinc project untill the power bill arrived .. that made me switch the whole system off
11-09-2019 03:05 PM
tpi2007
Quote: Originally Posted by uBronan View Post
Spoiler!

You don't need to leak anything, it's pretty clear that AMD can and will go for the only thing that Intel has left (besides AVX 512) in the prosumer/workstation market: outlandish mindshare quota, aka 6 channel memory socket FCLGA3647, and they're going to do it with WX 48 and 64 core CPU models with 8 channel memory (notice how the new 24 and 32 core models no longer sport the WX moniker, they're reserved for what's to come). If Intel can charge $3k for a CPU, so can and will AMD (and then some more).
11-09-2019 02:27 PM
uBronan
AMd TRX/WRX 80 workstation exiting

Well i am really wondering what the wrx80 will be
But to me looks like AMD is going to compete with intel even at its best products ever, and to be honest it looks darn impressive.
Got the feeling Lisa Su have made intel to feel comfortable, and they had nothing to fear from the smaller competition
And now has proven to be a force to recon with, because these newer models are so darn impressive.
For sure not all out there are going to be happy with these multi core monsters, but whatever they yell AMD has impressed even Intel themselfs
Still AMD has a small part of the pie,but its clear they made a superb product for most people out there.
I still admit for certain games Intel still has the best product, but what must be painful for Intel is that their dominance on the multi core HEDT/WKS market is being targeted by AMD as well.
And more amazing is that AMD got a super product beating every current cpu of them in the HEDT by a large margin.
I have great respect towards AMD that they where able to keep all of these things to darn secret and that the employees has been so darn tight lipped that almost nothing has been leaked.
Actually even a close friend which works for AMD germany did not reveal much more than wait and see, we will surprise you all ... we have more in store.....
Now i know what he meant by these words and am stunned indeed, because in the paste i have seen some of these products tested by him ...little did i know those where the test examples i see now being released much more matured and improved.
What stuns me is that i thought that these very fast cpu was an overclocked one and was only tested to see how far they could get the clocks stable. lol now i never will trust the words he says if he tests something, and will think 10 times about what he actually said
However i am one of those people which will not leak this info ever, until the person/company in question has giving me permission on paper todo so.
All the things i have seen have never been revealed, other than that i saw some test products being pushed to its limits, also without revealing what the i saw in real.
Even though i never signed an NDA from AMD, however i always worked in similar situations where leaking info could damage or be harmful for companies or governments where i often had to sign a NDA, which where part of my contracts with them.
Very impressive is all i can say for the whole AMD workforce getting this on the market and give us a opportunity to buy such powerful products for much fairer prices.
Intel should learn a lesson from this for ever, do not rest and keep the same product for ages before coming with something new and impressive.
So i really hope that those will sport those things i like to see for the things i have in mind and can test further on the w10 workstation with ReFS.
However it would be nice if i could do some gaming, during the wait for results from the monster cpu xD.
We now know that their probably are almost always enough core free to have at least 4 to 16 thread available to do so with the coming super cpu models
09-08-2019 04:03 AM
parityboy
Quote: Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post
On that topic, were you aware that you could configure Epyc's TDP above stock values?
Actually no, I wasn't.

Quote: Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post
If your workload is not that heavily multi-threaded, then you do not need Threadripper. Buy a normal Ryzen chip, they support unbuffered ECC as well.
Not enough of it though. Threadripper supports much more system RAM (but you already know that ).

Quote: Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post
  • Ryzen is mainstream, the same as Z370/Z390
  • Threadripper is prosumer HEDT, the same as X299
  • Epyc is professional workstation and servers, the same as Xeon.

Your own last sentence is more confusing than their current layout due to product overlap. AMD does not want Threadripper to step on Epyc's toes, so they have separated the segments. They will eventually offer higher clocked lower core count Epyc 2 chips like the 7371, I am certain.
Since EPYC is very clearly aimed at the server market and Threadripper very clearly is not, where is the overlap? Additionally, AMD does not need to mirror everything that Intel does (which is why Ryzen is leading the desktop CPU market, at least in terms of core count).

The server market is where AMD is making their money; from my perspective, having Threadripper certified/validated for professional workstation use gives them a leg up on Intel by offering a lower-cost option in that market and in the HEDT market and at the same time, if someone really needs a 2P, 128-core, 2TB RAM workstation the EPYC option is there.

In other words
  • Ryzen (mainstream PC)
  • Threadripper (HEDT & Professional workstation)
  • EPYC (ultra-high end Professional workstation)

Either way, AMD needs to work to move Threadripper away from all of that gaming crap. That Alienware tie-up was terrible move IMO.
09-07-2019 10:27 PM
Solohuman
Quote: Originally Posted by DNMock View Post
Now if only I used some type of software that would actually see benefits from 8-channel memory...
Yes indeed, that is at the heart of whether or not gamers upgrade to this new platform. But I suppose hardware vendors like AMD have to put the gear out there first before game devs can take advantage of it.
09-07-2019 09:56 PM
KyadCK
Quote: Originally Posted by parityboy View Post
It's a matter of marketing not technology. System builders are offering EPYC workstations and Threadripper servers today, so the crossovers are already happening. Clearly however, AMD's own marketing has EPYC fairly and squarely in the server space (which makes the most amount of sense - workstation parts are not best suited to 24/7 workloads). Additionally, the performance crown you allude to is highly dependent upon the workload - will a EPYC 7xx2P outrun a Zen 2 Threadripper with the same core count at stock settings? Obviously not, given that the Threadripper part will (presumably) come with higher clock speeds out-of-the-box.

Additionally, not every HEDT or Professional workload is that heavily multi-threaded - many simply are not, but still require a large amount of system memory to process the data sets; from what I have read, CAD/CAM applications are like this. Having said that, I am sure that those same said workloads can demand more system memory than what a Threadripper-based system can support, so EPYC would be the correct choice.

I can see no reason to actively castrate Threadripper re: ECC memory and keep it in the "prosumer" space - if someone really needs an EPYC-based workstation (for the workload you mentioned), I'm sure Velocity Micro will build one for them. Conversely, I can't see the big three OEMs offering Threadripper servers, even with ECC memory support - not when they can make much more money selling EPYC-based servers instead (which in turn are better suited to 24/7 server workloads anyway).

I think it would be better if AMD worked with their partners to create a clearer marketing message - Ryzen for mainstream (which is very clear), Threadripper for HEDT and Professional Workstation, EPYC for servers and (more demanding - memory, memory bandwidth or threads) Professional Workstation.
Yes. AMD created market segmentation in order to make more money. This is normal.

Of course there are workstations that use Epyc. A workstation is just a professional PC that sits under a desk instead of a datacenter.

No one is buying a Threadripper chip for actual server duty. People make stupid products all the time. Some of LTTs best videos are about the dumb things they find online, you should watch some.

AMD's own marketing has Epyc as wherever system builders want Epyc to be.

The EPYC 7371 kept up with Threadripper 1st gen fine, as well as have the ability to go 2P. AMD has not yet announced a higher clock speed chip for Epyc 2, but it is not abnormal for AMD or Intel to do something similar. On that topic, were you aware that you could configure Epyc's TDP above stock values?


If your workload is not that heavily multi-threaded, then you do not need Threadripper. Buy a normal Ryzen chip, they support unbuffered ECC as well. If you need single thread and a lot of ram, then buy Intel (who is still better at single thread anyway), a 7371, or wait until an equivalent is released for Epyc 2.

Threadripper and Ryzen do support ECC. Specifically, unbuffered ECC.

Product separation is and will always be a thing. AMD chooses to separate their HEDT and Professional lineups by limiting IO and a few features, but compared to Intel, this separation is nothing.

Why would the big three be making extra money selling a more expensive chip that they need to buy? CPUs are not where they make money, they make money on support and ram/storage upgrades.

Product lines are already very clear;

  • Ryzen is mainstream, the same as Z370/Z390
  • Threadripper is prosumer HEDT, the same as X299
  • Epyc is professional workstation and servers, the same as Xeon.

Your own last sentence is more confusing than their current layout due to product overlap. AMD does not want Threadripper to step on Epyc's toes, so they have separated the segments. They will eventually offer higher clocked lower core count Epyc 2 chips like the 7371, I am certain.
09-07-2019 01:37 PM
parityboy
Quote: Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post
Know whats faster than a 3.0Ghz 32-core in an application that can make use of 32 cores? Two 2.25ghz 32 cores. Threadripper does not hold the performance crown over Epyc.

Threadripper exists as a medium ground between people who need more, but don't need everything, just like Intel's HEDT. Also just like Intel's HEDT, it does not have some features that are considered important to workstations, such as buffered ECC. AMD has no reason to allow Threadripper to directly encroach upon Epyc's space when you can buy Epyc for just that little bit more.

Why would AMD shoot Epyc in the foot when they have no reason to do so?
It's a matter of marketing not technology. System builders are offering EPYC workstations and Threadripper servers today, so the crossovers are already happening. Clearly however, AMD's own marketing has EPYC fairly and squarely in the server space (which makes the most amount of sense - workstation parts are not best suited to 24/7 workloads). Additionally, the performance crown you allude to is highly dependent upon the workload - will a EPYC 7xx2P outrun a Zen 2 Threadripper with the same core count at stock settings? Obviously not, given that the Threadripper part will (presumably) come with higher clock speeds out-of-the-box.

Additionally, not every HEDT or Professional workload is that heavily multi-threaded - many simply are not, but still require a large amount of system memory to process the data sets; from what I have read, CAD/CAM applications are like this. Having said that, I am sure that those same said workloads can demand more system memory than what a Threadripper-based system can support, so EPYC would be the correct choice.

I can see no reason to actively castrate Threadripper re: ECC memory and keep it in the "prosumer" space - if someone really needs an EPYC-based workstation (for the workload you mentioned), I'm sure Velocity Micro will build one for them. Conversely, I can't see the big three OEMs offering Threadripper servers, even with ECC memory support - not when they can make much more money selling EPYC-based servers instead (which in turn are better suited to 24/7 server workloads anyway).

I think it would be better if AMD worked with their partners to create a clearer marketing message - Ryzen for mainstream (which is very clear), Threadripper for HEDT and Professional Workstation, EPYC for servers and (more demanding - memory, memory bandwidth or threads) Professional Workstation.
09-04-2019 05:42 PM
PriestOfSin I really hope there are at least a few 3rd gen threadripper chips for existing X399 boards. Would leave a pretty sour taste in my mouth for AMD to abandon first-gen Threadripper buyers.
09-04-2019 05:36 PM
skupples wh0ever is selling the most lanes for the least $ come re-up time gets my money, & it seems AMD knows that.

you're gonna be hard pressed to find me running an AMD card though, at least until they've got at least a 2080ti contender.
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