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  Topic Review (Newest First)
06-06-2020 01:09 AM
war4peace I admit I happen to know a thing or two about how certain types of pumps work, but I also admit I am not an expert, always willing to learn some more, so please by all means please explain us in more detail how should we run our watercooling pumps. D5 and DDC specifically, of course. Because your book talks about centrifugal pumps with wearing rings, and watercooling pumps have magnetic spherical motors without wearing rings.
(BTW if someone would like to have a link to the book mentioned above, which is a 2003 release, click here.)

Here's what I found in the referred manual (page 3-9):

Quote:
Most turbines, including all main turbines, have a radial bearing at each end of the rotor. These bearings are generally known as JOURNAL BEARINGS and may be either the sleeve type or the tilting-pad type. Each type may be either cylindrical seated or spherical seated. Except for the momentary metal-to-metal contact at the time the turbine is started, the two metal surfaces of the journal and bearing are constantly separated by a film of oil.
In watercooling spherical pumps, the same principle is applied, except instead of the film of oil, the separator is the watercooling liquid itself. Another quote from the same manual, page 3-11:
Quote:
With proper clearances and proper lubrication, bearings will last for many years.
@looniam , could you please elaborate? Maybe I am missing something.
06-05-2020 07:57 PM
ManniX-ITA @looniam
I'm impressed, I guess we are all impressed here. Seems you have more knowledge and experience than everyone else here.
But... do you care to share a bit of it?

So far I only understood running a pump always 100% wears it more than 5%.
What do you recommend? Running it as much as possible at low speed?
Better fixed speeds or variable with a curve/setpoint? What about delta between speeds?
Should we never push it at 100%, better keep it at 70-80% max?
Any other tips for maintenance or design of the loop?
What else?

Now we have expectations after this stunt

I'd be nice if you could tell us what's relevant.
I could read that manual but I'm probably not going to understand half of it...
06-05-2020 04:07 PM
skupples btw - my MCP35x2 has just now started to slow down @ max RPM... i just haven't had time to see if its from impeller wear. I figure they're quite warn down from all the years of draining/filling cavitation.

looks like I got it just over 8 years ago now.

one thing to note - I've allowed it to run @ full blast with only one block & 3 rads in my system for the last 6 months, which we know is bad for DDCs. my flow was originally like 350+ in this config, now its like 290.
06-05-2020 04:03 PM
looniam
Quote: Originally Posted by war4peace View Post
I've heard the same argument before... someone brought (as argument) a reference to an article discussing pump wear for industrial pumps (something like 30K gallons per minute) and how that affects the impeller, etc. The article was correct. The argument wasn't, because you can't put an equal sign between an elephant and a Chihuahua, because they are both mammals and have four legs. Watercooling pumps operate differently from high volume pumps on a ship, with different wear and tear, etc.

About the fans, have you tried running them without PWM pin? Aka just connected to 12V? If they reach 3K RPM (12V, ground, RPM pin), then it's the PWM implementation stopping them from reaching 3K RPM. If they don't reach that speed, there's something off with the fans themselves.
I run 2K RPM Noctuas on my NAS in the attic, directly connected to PSU throgh a molex, with RPM pin connected to the motherboard for control and they reach 2K RPM.
you read an article did you? well good for you. now try reading, practicing and being tested on:

if you like to do a comparison of animals then why not publications. i'd also be interested to hear how one (unknown atm) article will compare to 600 years of engineering but that would be a waste of time.

not all pumps on a ship are high volume. had you ever worked on a ship in the engineering/repair department you would know that. the navy has been liquid cooling electronics long before someone got the crazy idea with an aquarium pump. and when those systems need maintenance/repair it wouldn't be the electric techs - who just swap out pcbs or what not - but a machinist mate from engineering; thats their job rate.

pumps, motors, animals, internal combustion engines, ect. all have life expediencies that depend on how much load how often how long and under what conditions (heat, moisture). i don't know or care what the aruement on facebook was. it should stay there. because at most only getting 5% increase in a pump's life expectancy and suffering some ping pong effect is about a facebook level comment when i know and have experienced other.

if you want to point out that it is really unnecessary, that pumps already last for years - like skup inferred - i'm all with you, marching in the parade, even blocking traffic. but when i see stuff i know you don't know and is not correct; you can argue with yourself with more justifying babble.

and yeah, thanks for the suggests, i had gone through aquasuite and checked everything tried adjustments. then it occurred to me its a recent issue i forgot about using extensions that i have a mile of. as soon as i connected one directly to a fan header - 2780+rpms.

i live with it until i swap things around when i replace all the soft tubes clean flush blocks and rads in a few months. but i am happy enough with 2450rpms since i only got the 3K since same price as the 2K fans.
06-05-2020 09:50 AM
war4peace It's IT Diva's Mod.
06-05-2020 06:24 AM
gftgy
Quote: Originally Posted by looniam View Post
believe what you want but it does increase the life span and more than your underestimated 5%. that is not anything i know from reading posts in FB groups or forums like here. that is what i know from first hand experience as a machinist mate in the navy; operated/maintained/repaired close to every pump imaginable on a ship.

but you are more than welcome to disagree because really - its nothing that will harm anyone/anything anyway - any warranty is suppose to consider 100% speeds so . .

i hope we are cool with disagreeing because now i got a favor to ask:

just got a pair of the noctua 3K leaf blowers and maxing out at 2250rpm. do those require the diane mod to get 3K? i was going for the 2K but these were the same price and can live with it but . .
I picked up 9 of those and all of them cap out at around 2800rpm on their own, but they don't have the surplus torque to maintain those speeds when faced with restrictions like filters and radiators, and a drop to 2250rpm max seems plausible with enough restriction. Have you tested them on their own?

Considering that they run on 12v, their tremendous range (~300-~2800rpm in my batch), and spectacular build quality, I'm pretty happy with them; but I'm curious about this "Diane mod" you mention.
06-05-2020 04:52 AM
war4peace
Quote: Originally Posted by looniam View Post
believe what you want but it does increase the life span and more than your underestimated 5%. that is not anything i know from reading posts in FB groups or forums like here. that is what i know from first hand experience as a machinist mate in the navy; operated/maintained/repaired close to every pump imaginable on a ship.

but you are more than welcome to disagree because really - its nothing that will harm anyone/anything anyway - any warranty is suppose to consider 100% speeds so . .

i hope we are cool with disagreeing because now i got a favor to ask:

just got a pair of the noctua 3K leaf blowers and maxing out at 2250rpm. do those require the diane mod to get 3K? i was going for the 2K but these were the same price and can live with it but . .
I've heard the same argument before... someone brought (as argument) a reference to an article discussing pump wear for industrial pumps (something like 30K gallons per minute) and how that affects the impeller, etc. The article was correct. The argument wasn't, because you can't put an equal sign between an elephant and a Chihuahua, because they are both mammals and have four legs. Watercooling pumps operate differently from high volume pumps on a ship, with different wear and tear, etc.

About the fans, have you tried running them without PWM pin? Aka just connected to 12V? If they reach 3K RPM (12V, ground, RPM pin), then it's the PWM implementation stopping them from reaching 3K RPM. If they don't reach that speed, there's something off with the fans themselves.
I run 2K RPM Noctuas on my NAS in the attic, directly connected to PSU throgh a molex, with RPM pin connected to the motherboard for control and they reach 2K RPM.
06-04-2020 03:32 PM
skupples my MCP35x2 has been running nearly 24/7 @ 100% for nearly 10 years.

My secret?

either the fan that blows air on it, or my obscenely clean loop + obscenely well maintained coolant.
06-04-2020 01:49 PM
looniam
Quote: Originally Posted by war4peace View Post
Because it offers a quick and inexpensive way to eliminate vibrations at certain speeds, and you can fine-tune it for absolute silence.
And because most pumps nowadays are PWM


There is no need to run at 100%, as well as there's no need to reduce pump speed to less than that. Certainly not to "increase pump lifespan".
I was referring to people recommending lower pump speeds to "avoid damaging the pump", I have no quarrel with people setting their pump speeds for other reasons. To each their own.
believe what you want but it does increase the life span and more than your underestimated 5%. that is not anything i know from reading posts in FB groups or forums like here. that is what i know from first hand experience as a machinist mate in the navy; operated/maintained/repaired close to every pump imaginable on a ship.

but you are more than welcome to disagree because really - its nothing that will harm anyone/anything anyway - any warranty is suppose to consider 100% speeds so . .

i hope we are cool with disagreeing because now i got a favor to ask:

just got a pair of the noctua 3K leaf blowers and maxing out at 2250rpm. do those require the diane mod to get 3K? i was going for the 2K but these were the same price and can live with it but . .
06-03-2020 01:37 AM
war4peace
Quote: Originally Posted by looniam View Post
then why buy a PWM pump?
Because it offers a quick and inexpensive way to eliminate vibrations at certain speeds, and you can fine-tune it for absolute silence.
And because most pumps nowadays are PWM

Quote: Originally Posted by looniam View Post
aside from the 1GPM "standard," i suspect setting pumps speed(s) more of a personal preference. i see no need to run anything at 100% while idling for hours.
There is no need to run at 100%, as well as there's no need to reduce pump speed to less than that. Certainly not to "increase pump lifespan".
I was referring to people recommending lower pump speeds to "avoid damaging the pump", I have no quarrel with people setting their pump speeds for other reasons. To each their own.

Quote: Originally Posted by valvehead View Post
I also use a curve controller for the pump. I chose a silent speed for the minimum, and the pump only speeds up after the fans are at a high enough level that they mask the increase in pump noise.
I wonder why would the pump make noise in the first place. I assume it's about how it's installed in the system.

Quote: Originally Posted by valvehead View Post
I use water-air delta as the controlling temp. Some people use absolute temps, but I prefer consistent noise level for a given load. I could run at lower fan and pump settings in winter, but I'm not limited by temps for stability anyway.
I eliminated noise by oversizing the radiator. Fans at 400 RPM at all times, pumps at 100% (both of them), liquid temperature almost never exceeds 40 degrees Celsius except while very heavy gaming in SLI during very hot summer days, and then fans ramp up to 500-550 RPM to maintain 40 degrees Celsius liquid temperature. Right now ambient temperature is 23.7 degrees Celsius and liquid temperature is 26.8.

Quote: Originally Posted by valvehead View Post
If you're experiencing ping pong with your pump, then either your controller is restricted to too small of a temperature range and/or you need more thermal mass (more water -> larger reservoir if necessary) to slow down the drift.
Larger reservoir? It has nothing to do with cooling, except maybe introducing some 30-second delay in liquid temperature stabilization (by the way, that delay works both ways). That is, of course, unless you have a 50L reservoir
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