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-   -   Best Chip/Motherboard to Begin LN2? (https://www.overclock.net/forum/268-dry-ice-liquid-nitrogen/1379437-best-chip-motherboard-begin-ln2.html)

WebsterXC 04-06-2013 02:36 PM

I'm starting to move into the LN2/DICE scene and I'd really like some helpful info on which board and CPU combo would be best suited for a beginner on sub-zero cooling. I have a decent amount of overclocking experience in general, but super high frequencies and extreme cooling are new to me. I was thinking about going the AMD route; the unlocked multiplier would definately be an easy, and relatively inexpensive way to start. That was simply a thought though, and I'd like you guys' opinion? Any chips or chipsets to stay away from?

 

Two other questions:

 

--How important is my choice of RAM in extreme overclocking. Will basic sticks of something like Corsair XMS3 work, or should I invest in higher clocking, high quality RAM like Kingston HyperX or Corsair Dominator Platinum?

 

--How big is too big for the power supply? My only spare power supply currently is an Enermax Platimax 850W. Is that too little to be starting out on or will 850W suffice for extreme voltages? I'll only be overclocking the CPU; graphics card is almost insignificant in power draw (Quadro FX3700). 

 

Thanks in advance. I'm continuing my research so I don't screw things up!


dman811 04-06-2013 03:10 PM

If you are doing this to see how high of a clock speed you are getting, for Intel I would recommend an i7 3770K and a Gigabyte GA-Z77X-UP7. That combination has brought home clocks of above 7GHz IIRC. If you want to do it for AMD, just for clocks as well, I would recommend the A10-5800K and the ASRock FM2A85X Extreme6 as per CPUID News. As for RAM, the higher the clock, the better, go for the Dominators or some G.Skill Trident X's.

WebsterXC 04-06-2013 03:36 PM

The Intel route you've suggested is too expensive for me right now. I'd like to start small; I understand it's definately going to take some cash in hardware, but I'd like to become more familiar with DICE/LN2 before I drop that kind of money on hardware I'm potentially going to fry.

 

Curious on your AMD recommendation as well: I assumed that an APU would be more unstable at higher clocks than a CPU? Would an older Phenom or newer FX series be better than an APU?


dman811 04-06-2013 04:05 PM

I don't cool this way myself, I still air cool, hopefully water soon enough, but I built a client a rig just for this purpose. He told me "give me the best overclocking computer I can get, but it has to be AMD". The AMD part has a reason unknown to me. I used the A10-5800K and the ASRock FM2A85X Extreme6 based on that article that I linked, and he has gotten clocks upwards of 7GHz, unfortunately I do not have his validations for that to give you proof of that statement. I tested the rig on DICE before I actually gave it to him, and had it at 5.9GHz, perfectly stable, and he has come back to me for his son's gaming rig, and a light work computer for his wife, all based on APUs. I will probably be building his son a new rig in the next two years as he is only 12 now, and still playing low requirement games. APUs overclock at some of the highest clocks I have seen, and I myself was quite surprised by it as well. It is a decently cheap combination as well, only ~$250, not including RAM. If you do choose to go with an APU, get RAM 1866MHz and up, they truly benefit from it. As for your questions on Phenom and FX CPUs, I have not seen LN2 or DICE on them. If you want to go really cheap, I have heard that the AM3 Sempron chips overclock extremely well, even on air, again no validation, but I will link the page to you in a PM, as it is on another forum site.

WebsterXC 04-06-2013 04:16 PM

I appreciate your help.

 

Could someone address my power supply issue too? That's a burning question in my head. If the 850W isn't enough, I've got a friend that can sell me a Lepa G1600 for a decent price (granted I sell the Enermax).


CAxVIPER 04-06-2013 04:28 PM

Assuming you are only running your CPU that will be more than enough.

dman811 04-06-2013 04:30 PM

Sorry, never saw the PSU part for some reason, 850W should be sufficient, probably even more than needed. I gave my client a 750W PSU because he was nervous about the same thing, and he has been fine so far while overclocking CPU, GPU, and RAM.

ivanlabrie 04-06-2013 04:35 PM

850w for cpu only will be fine...you can later invest in a better psu for 3d benching with one or two gpus pushed to the limit. (not familiar with your enermax unit though...but it would probably do fine)

You can get a p45 board and Celeron D's for max frequency, but remember you also need NB cooling as well as good ddr2 ram.
If not the apu is a nice benching platform, for 2d and 3d on cold, using the igpu and really fast ram. I suggest a 2400mhz cl9 Trident X kit paired with the Asrock board and a kingpin cooling F1EE pot or the ocn marksman one. You can also grab an am3+ board, a Sempron 145, an FX8120 and the same Trident X ram for max ddr3 valids and cpu-z validation, though you lose the 3d stuff. (you'll need a 3770k or 3930k for 3d scores on cold and that would be pricier).

WebsterXC 04-06-2013 05:10 PM

Hmm...Celeron D sounds like a good idea I never thought of that. What do you mean by good RAM? I'll do some more research on these as well. Any suggestions for a good P45 board?

 

As for not-CPU cooling, I've got VRM blocks, as well as NB blocks hooked up to a GTX280 radiator.

 

EDIT: How about the Pentium D series? Do they overclock well?


stubass 04-06-2013 08:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by WebsterXC View Post

Hmm...Celeron D sounds like a good idea I never thought of that. What do you mean by good RAM? I'll do some more research on these as well. Any suggestions for a good P45 board?

As for not-CPU cooling, I've got VRM blocks, as well as NB blocks hooked up to a GTX280 radiator.

EDIT: How about the Pentium D series? Do they overclock well?
any 775 netburst chips are great to overclock from what i have been told and get good points on HWBot. as too 775 boards these four i asked about pricing in this THREAD are top tier 775 boards for extreme overclocking. that is if you can find them at reasonable prices, i want to get a Rampage extreme x48 smile.gif

BTW i am starting with AMD with a GB 990FXA-UD5 and some FX cpu's, 775's once i can find one of the above boards and gut my sig rig for ivy bridge. I am also starting with DICE until i find like a 35L Dewar to store Ln2 which to get one that holds well costs $500 odd bucks for a decent used one and big $$$$$ for a new one. if you get into 3D you would be better with a 60+ L.
Onething to note is thermal paste, Gelid GC Extreme is the best for handling full pots of Ln2 without freezing at -196*C
http://www.ebay.com/itm/GELID-GC-EXTREME-10g-Big-Thermal-Paste-Compound-Grease-CPU-GPU-Chipset-Heatsink-/150854612713?pt=US_Thermal_Compounds_Supplies&hash=item231fa2b6e9
Threads i have started in which i have got some good infomation
https://www.overclock.net/t/1354084/finally-received-my-venom-pics-on-op (pot recomendations, insulation application and materials, digital thermometers etc)
https://www.overclock.net/t/1377045/solved-what-ram-speed-is-recomended-for-high-overclocks-on-amd
https://www.overclock.net/t/1354083/recomend-a-psu-for-benching-ln2

plus ask Q's in the stickies and make threads

ivanlabrie 04-06-2013 09:39 PM

What he said...

As for the p45, yeah...stick to p45 for Celeron D and Cedar Mill Pentium 4's (p4 631, 531j and so on). X48 with ddr3 is nicer for E8500 and q9550 cpus.
You need Micron D9 ddr2 for best 2d scores on 775. Might come in handy for certain am2+ chips too.
DDR3 might be more useful though, if you find a good ddr3 x48 board and an E8500 you can also use the ram for AMD FX cpus and apus. Elpida Hyper, BBSE, Crucial (Micron D9QMT,D9PFJ) ---> Ballistix Tactical Elite 2gb sticks from early 2012, newer 1600mhz cl8 Lo profile 4gb sticks (double sided)...Check the ocn ram addict thread for serial no. info for Corsair and G.skill sticks, so you can figure out the memory chips inside every kit. Best ddr3 is in 2gb format normally, specially for 2d.

EpicAMDGamer 04-06-2013 09:43 PM

I'd recommend the ASUS P5B Deluxe or other ASUS P45 boards and thinks like the rampage.

WebsterXC 04-06-2013 10:16 PM

The problem with going the 775 route is that all the good overclocking boards people are charging the same amount as a fairly decent AM3 board. And I'd rather play with AMD over Intel for the sole reason I can use an unlocked multiplier if need be


ivanlabrie 04-06-2013 10:16 PM

A good practice is checking hwbot.org for results with each board and chip, and to see how many points the top scores give, as well as how tough the competition is. thumb.gif

WebsterXC 04-06-2013 10:31 PM

That's a good idea, but honestly I'm just looking to get into the Sub-Zero cooling scene for right now. Obviously I'll submit to HWBot, but I want to know exactly what I'm doing before I compete.


ivanlabrie 04-06-2013 10:35 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by WebsterXC View Post

That's a good idea, but honestly I'm just looking to get into the Sub-Zero cooling scene for right now. Obviously I'll submit to HWBot, but I want to know exactly what I'm doing before I compete.

Then start by benching on air, the stuff you have, to feel your way through and learn how to tweak for best efficiency and scores.

Alatar 04-06-2013 10:53 PM

If you don't want to go the 775 route you could always invest in a nice AM3+ board and then start out by buying some lower end unlocked Phenom II for it.

The good thing about having an AM3+ platform even for a beginner is that there are so many chips that you can OC on that thing. Even the upcoming steamroller chips should work with current boards.

Just remember to insulate well and not to go crazy with all the voltages at first and your chances of breaking anything are very close to zero.

WebsterXC 04-06-2013 10:58 PM

Thanks for the awesome advice, that's sort of what I had in mind! I probably should go with AM3+ over AM3. Only reason I wanted to go with an 890fx chipset was because I hate UEFI BIOS. Call me crazy, but I navigate better on the old-fashioned blue and yellow screen.


Capwn 04-06-2013 11:00 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by WebsterXC View Post

Thanks for the awesome advice, that's sort of what I had in mind! I probably should go with AM3+ over AM3. Only reason I wanted to go with an 890fx chipset was because I hate UEFI BIOS. Call me crazy, but I navigate better on the old-fashioned blue and yellow screen.
Not crazy.. Took me a while , but now I finally prefer UEFI. My EVGA Z77 FTW drove me nuts having to use just my keyboard again tongue.gif

stubass 04-07-2013 01:04 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by WebsterXC View Post

Thanks for the awesome advice, that's sort of what I had in mind! I probably should go with AM3+ over AM3. Only reason I wanted to go with an 890fx chipset was because I hate UEFI BIOS. Call me crazy, but I navigate better on the old-fashioned blue and yellow screen.

You could get something like Gigabyte 990FXA-UD3, 5 or 7 rev 1.x for example which uses GB's hybrid EFI BIOS, i went with the UD5 rev 1.1 becuase i couldnt get the UD7. on the UD3 and 5 rev 3 has the UEFI BIOS so if you dont like UEFI then look for rev1.x versions. i am notg sayin go out and buy Gigabyte just giving you some info smile.gif

Mikecdm 04-07-2013 09:43 AM

My take on things is that 775 is a great place to start. There are tons of different chips to bench and most if not all can be had for cheap. If you are going to be using DICE, 775 is also good because most chips scale really well with just DICE. Ln2 will take them higher, but one can still be pretty competitive with just DICE. Finding a good board is kind of the hard part, but a nice EP45-UD3P will get you through all of the core 2 chips and related Pentium models. P4 and celeron don't work well in most P45. One would need to mod the chip in order to get it to work. P35 and P965 along with X48 work well with P4 and celeron. Something like a P5B deluxe with mods will be a great board for P4 and celerons and the EP45 would be good for quads and c2d.

Now the thing with AMD. If you don't have Ln2, it's a waste of time IMO. Max clocks will be miles away from what can be achieved on Ln2 if you are only using DICE. For unlocked chips, AM3 boards are great. If you want to run chips with locked multi's, the AM3 boards don't take them very high and you're back to looking for a good DDR2 board. Other than that, I find the AMD stuff pretty boring for most of the 2d benches since AMD is so slow. But thats just personal preference. For AMD, the CHV is my favorite board. The ROG connect is miles better than anything giga can come up with. The board is also rock solid.

CL3P20 04-07-2013 11:22 AM

what mike said..

 

**my 2cents to add - P5B-DLX and a handful of 775skt CPU's is less than 200$ and loads of HWBot points.. as well as fun. You can clock Celeron up to Qxxx and Exxxx cpu's... by far the cheapest board to get 775 experience on..as well as being +600mhz FSB capable and more than robust enough for Quad CPU clocking. 

 

also - 775skt rarely has issues with cold and scales really well on DICE alone, so max clocks and good submissions are possible without LN.


Rasparthe 04-07-2013 01:12 PM

Well, for what its worth, I'll jump in and third what the two guys above me have said. I've had plenty of chipsets and platforms subzero and I still comeback to my favourite being 775. As stated, the processors are cheap as hell to get started and you can definitely be competitive with a great set of DDR2 memory ($30 or $40) and a good x48 or P45 motherboard. DDR3 boards really only provide advantage for Super Pi or other benchmarks where memory speed is important, which is nice to have but the boards are usually very expensive. Personally I started with a Rampage Formula and Pentium 4 641 Cedar Mill, and now I own way, way, way too many 775 boards because I just can't bear to get rid of them. thumb.gif

HobieCat 04-07-2013 01:54 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikecdm View Post

My take on things is that 775 is a great place to start. There are tons of different chips to bench and most if not all can be had for cheap. If you are going to be using DICE, 775 is also good because most chips scale really well with just DICE. Ln2 will take them higher, but one can still be pretty competitive with just DICE. Finding a good board is kind of the hard part, but a nice EP45-UD3P will get you through all of the core 2 chips and related Pentium models. P4 and celeron don't work well in most P45. One would need to mod the chip in order to get it to work. P35 and P965 along with X48 work well with P4 and celeron. Something like a P5B deluxe with mods will be a great board for P4 and celerons and the EP45 would be good for quads and c2d.

Now the thing with AMD. If you don't have Ln2, it's a waste of time IMO. Max clocks will be miles away from what can be achieved on Ln2 if you are only using DICE. For unlocked chips, AM3 boards are great. If you want to run chips with locked multi's, the AM3 boards don't take them very high and you're back to looking for a good DDR2 board. Other than that, I find the AMD stuff pretty boring for most of the 2d benches since AMD is so slow. But thats just personal preference. For AMD, the CHV is my favorite board. The ROG connect is miles better than anything giga can come up with. The board is also rock solid.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CL3P20 View Post

what mike said..

 

**my 2cents to add - P5B-DLX and a handful of 775skt CPU's is less than 200$ and loads of HWBot points.. as well as fun. You can clock Celeron up to Qxxx and Exxxx cpu's... by far the cheapest board to get 775 experience on..as well as being +600mhz FSB capable and more than robust enough for Quad CPU clocking. 

 

also - 775skt rarely has issues with cold and scales really well on DICE alone, so max clocks and good submissions are possible without LN.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasparthe View Post

Well, for what its worth, I'll jump in and third what the two guys above me have said. I've had plenty of chipsets and platforms subzero and I still comeback to my favourite being 775. As stated, the processors are cheap as hell to get started and you can definitely be competitive with a great set of DDR2 memory ($30 or $40) and a good x48 or P45 motherboard. DDR3 boards really only provide advantage for Super Pi or other benchmarks where memory speed is important, which is nice to have but the boards are usually very expensive. Personally I started with a Rampage Formula and Pentium 4 641 Cedar Mill, and now I own way, way, way too many 775 boards because I just can't bear to get rid of them. thumb.gif

 

Listen to these three guys.  They are all very experienced sub-zero overclockers, so they know exactly what they're talking about. thumb.gif


WebsterXC 04-07-2013 04:57 PM

Wow thanks so much for the priceless information guys. Looks like I will be going with LGA775 based on the information you all have given me.

 

I am curious about these "mods" people are doing to the 775 boards. Where would I be able to find a worklog/guide/instructions on what and how to modify these boards? 


Rasparthe 04-07-2013 05:44 PM

I think the 'mod' that Mike was talking about, if that is the one your referring to, is that many of the P45 (the UD3P, for example) severely limit the Vcore in the BIOS for P4 and Celeron chips. They get limited to 1.4v for some reason that I've never really heard a clear explanation on. You can mod the actual processor using BSEL pin mods to bypass this. The problem is limited to certain boards and only the older single core 775 stuff, but they work impressively for Core2 family.

WebsterXC 04-07-2013 05:54 PM

Where would I be able to find instructions for these mods?


EpicAMDGamer 04-07-2013 06:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasparthe View Post

I think the 'mod' that Mike was talking about, if that is the one your referring to, is that many of the P45 (the UD3P, for example) severely limit the Vcore in the BIOS for P4 and Celeron chips. They get limited to 1.4v for some reason that I've never really heard a clear explanation on. You can mod the actual processor using BSEL pin mods to bypass this. The problem is limited to certain boards and only the older single core 775 stuff, but they work impressively for Core2 family.

I have the ASUS P5B Deluxe and I've used a P4 520 and don't have a 1.4v limitation. Are you talking about something else?

ivanlabrie 04-07-2013 07:34 PM

Some p45 boards refuse to boot with certain prescott cpus...Like the Biostar tpower i45 for instance.

CL3P20 04-07-2013 07:41 PM

P5b is too old too care.. it just works. Just needs a pencil for chipset mod to rock high fsb... mch mod if your pushing crazy ram latency.

Mikecdm 04-07-2013 07:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by WebsterXC View Post

Where would I be able to find instructions for these mods?
Here is a thread i saw recently http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?285327-Overclocking-Thread-of-Celeron-D-%28Cedar-Mill%29-on-P45-Chipset-or-any-Unfriendly-Mobo
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanlabrie View Post

Some p45 boards refuse to boot with certain prescott cpus...Like the Biostar tpower i45 for instance.

My tpower i45 refuses to boot with any cpu frown.gif

ivanlabrie 04-07-2013 09:32 PM

Such a shame...it's a sexy board. tongue.gif

I want a p5b deluxe now xD
I'm rocking a d945gccr for now, MVG died...OP, keep many boards at home, just in case. thumb.gif


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