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-   -   Subwoofer near computer case, what's the real risk? (https://www.overclock.net/forum/18-sound-cards-computer-audio/1398207-subwoofer-near-computer-case-whats-real-risk.html)

pheria 06-06-2013 10:48 AM

Hey everyone,

I've just moved and our game/computer room is now a bit smaller, which resulted in me having to downsize my desk.
In trying to optimize space I figured I could place an end table in the corner, a sub underneath it, and my tower on top. I did this last night, but it just now clicked in my head that there may be magnetic / vibration concerns.

Vibration I can test myself, and simply feel whether it may be a problem or not.
It's the electromagnetism that's left me wondering.

I've found a lot of conflicting opinions when searching online, but most of these are several years old so I thought I would ask the classic question again:

Is my PC safe if it's close to my subwoofer?

The sub is part of the "Logitech Z Cinema Advanced Surround Sound System", and I'm not sure if it's shielded or not.

Here's a pic of the setup:

TwoCables 06-06-2013 10:55 AM

There is nothing in the manual that talks about whether or not it's shielded. So it's my guess that it's not shielded and therefore I recommended keeping it at least 2 feet away from anything magnetic, such as hard drives. I don't know what can happen if you don't, but don't take your chances.


aroc91 06-06-2013 11:01 AM

http://cobolhacker.com/2006/10/28/is-it-possible-to-erase-a-hard-drive-with-magnets/

It'll be fine.

SDH500 06-06-2013 11:01 AM

If you haven't replaced your mechanical hard drives with SSD's yet the vibration may also screw something up. If you are mechanical hard drive free you should be just fine, but expect cheap fans to not last as long.

tsm106 06-06-2013 11:08 AM

I've thought about it before, but it doesn't seem to bother my server/htpc at all to have a 10" Energy sub thumping right next to it. The server is running 20 drives total btw and 12 in RAID6 and yea its been like this for years.

TwoCables 06-06-2013 11:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsm106 View Post

I've thought about it before, but it doesn't seem to bother my server/htpc at all to have a 10" Energy sub thumping right next to it. The server is running 20 drives total btw and 12 in RAID6 and yea its been like this for years.


Then your subwoofer may be magnetically shielded.


pheria 06-06-2013 11:28 AM

I have an SSD for my main drive, but a mechanical for media, large game installs, etc.

The general vibe I'm getting is that it's probably okay, but perhaps not worth the risk either.

Vibrations are a concern as well, but they're something I feel more confident about experimenting with. I can't see magnetic fields (especially not inside of a hard drive enclosure), but I can easily observe vibrations.

TwoCables 06-06-2013 11:32 AM

All I've ever heard over the years is if a subwoofer or speaker is not magnetically shielded, then it should be kept at least 2 feet away from magnetic things like hard drive.


pheria 06-06-2013 12:44 PM

Seems like sound advice. I'll probably see if I can readjust my setup somehow to be safe. Thanks!

Masta Squidge 06-06-2013 12:49 PM

This myth is absurd. You people do realize there are brutally strong magnets inside hard drives right?

One could make the argument that the A/C speaker coil might cause a problem, but the magnetic field is FAR too weak to do anything. Even an unshielded speaker has to be just a couple inches from a CRT to affect it, and that my friends is the ONLY reason to buy shielded speakers in the first place.

Shielding in speakers originates from the CRT era, when speakers were places directly next to the screens, in some cases attached to them, and unshielded ones would cause all sorts of funky colors on the display. It has nothing to do with your hard drive.

schmotty 06-06-2013 12:55 PM

Put a piece of sheet metal between the sub and the case and it should be fine. Especially if your case is metal.

TwoCables 06-06-2013 05:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masta Squidge View Post

This myth is absurd. You people do realize there are brutally strong magnets inside hard drives right?

One could make the argument that the A/C speaker coil might cause a problem, but the magnetic field is FAR too weak to do anything. Even an unshielded speaker has to be just a couple inches from a CRT to affect it, and that my friends is the ONLY reason to buy shielded speakers in the first place.

Shielding in speakers originates from the CRT era, when speakers were places directly next to the screens, in some cases attached to them, and unshielded ones would cause all sorts of funky colors on the display. It has nothing to do with your hard drive.

 

Yeah, but we're talking about a powered subwoofer. There's a big difference.


Masta Squidge 06-06-2013 06:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoCables View Post

Yeah, but we're talking about a powered subwoofer. There's a big difference.
No, there isn't.

A powered sub has an amp and a speaker in it. The most dangerous thing in the assembly is the voice coil, and it isn't a problem. An amplifier is no different in terms of emissions than any other component in your pc.


You can feel free to put your external hard drive directly on top of logitech's 500 watt powered speaker setup and you will never have a problem.

I'm telling you, this whole speaker thing is a myth.

Lombax 06-06-2013 06:08 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoCables View Post

All I've ever heard over the years is if a subwoofer or speaker is not magnetically shielded, then it should be kept at least 2 feet away from magnetic things like hard drive.

I actually believe this is for the benefit of the subwoofer, for more accurate sound reproduction.

Think, if it was close to something metal, the magnet might try to "pull" that direction, resulting in a loss of precision.

Masta Squidge 06-06-2013 06:13 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lombax View Post

I actually believe this is for the benefit of the subwoofer, for more accurate sound reproduction.

Think, if it was close to something metal, the magnet might try to "pull" that direction, resulting in a loss of precision.
You guys have no idea how rapidly magnetic fields lose strength do you? Magnetic fields lose strength extraordinarily quickly. Over the space of just a few inches, even the massive magnets on the backs of high powered speakers lose so much of their strength that the earths magnetic field is more powerful. You can build an enclosure out of nothing but steel, and it wont affect the sound quality at all, barring the obvious resonance problems of the actual case.

TwoCables 06-06-2013 06:14 PM

The manual for my speaker system (Altec Lansing VS4121) says that my subwoofer is not shielded and therefore I should keep it at least 2 feet away from magnetic things like hard drives. It doesn't say why, it just says to keep a distance.

 

So if this is a myth, then why is it in my manual?


Masta Squidge 06-06-2013 06:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoCables View Post

The manual for my speaker system (Altec Lansing VS4121) says that my subwoofer is not shielded and therefore I should keep it at least 2 feet away from magnetic things like hard drives. It doesn't say why, it just says to keep a distance.

So if this is a myth, then why is it in my manual?
Because it is such a well known myth that they don't want anyone blaming them for their **** breaking.

I promise you can put a hard drive right on top of a powered sub and it will function just fine for years. I had no other place to put mine, and until recently when I moved, the thing sat there for 5 years without a single problem.

Masta Squidge 06-06-2013 06:20 PM

The only time you have a problem with magnets and hard drives is when they are actively writing data, you put a magnet to the drive, and it pulls the read/write arms into contact with the platter... and poof, drive is messed up.

You still have to be within an inch for this to even occur, and be using a particularly strong magnet, like the ones already inside of the damn drive. There are stupidly powerful little magnets inside hard drives dude. Even their fields, within a half inch of the platter, isn't enough to corrupt the data that is on the disc.

Lombax 06-06-2013 06:22 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masta Squidge View Post

You guys have no idea how rapidly magnetic fields lose strength do you? Magnetic fields lose strength extraordinarily quickly. Over the space of just a few inches, even the massive magnets on the backs of high powered speakers lose so much of their strength that the earths magnetic field is more powerful. You can build an enclosure out of nothing but steel, and it wont affect the sound quality at all, barring the obvious resonance problems of the actual case.

Yes, its exponential. 2 feet is pushing it, but I can tell you that the subs that I installed in my car would attract things over 1 foot away. and would pull hard towards metal that was like 4-6 inches away. Which is why they came double-boxed where the outer box was big enough for a 10 year old to completely hide in.

But those were 15's.....

Masta Squidge 06-06-2013 06:22 PM

http://www.pcworld.com/article/116572/article.html

Quote:
For venerable floppies, this statement holds true. We placed a 99-cent magnet on a 3.5-inch floppy for a few seconds. The magnet stuck to the disk and ruined its data.

That combined with the CRT thing is where this myth comes from.
Quote:
Fortunately, most modern storage devices, such as SD and CompactFlash memory cards, are immune to magnetic fields. "There's nothing magnetic in flash memory, so [a magnet] won't do anything," says Bill Frank, executive director of the CompactFlash Association. "A magnet powerful enough to disturb the electrons in flash would be powerful enough to suck the iron out of your blood cells," says Frank.

The same goes for hard drives. The only magnets powerful enough to scrub data from a drive platter are laboratory degaussers or those used by government agencies to wipe bits off media. "In the real world, people are not losing data from magnets," says Bill Rudock, a tech-support engineer with hard-drive maker Seagate. "In every disk," notes Rudock, "there's one heck of a magnet that swings the head."

nvidiaftw12 06-06-2013 06:23 PM

I dunno about on it, but near it is fine. Depending on the sub, not much of a worry with that little logitech, but it could actually vibrate the computer off.


Masta Squidge 06-06-2013 06:25 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lombax View Post

Yes, its exponential. 2 feet is pushing it, but I can tell you that the subs that I installed in my car would attract things over 1 foot away. and would pull hard towards metal that was like 4-6 inches away. Which is why they came double-boxed where the outer box was big enough for a 10 year old to completely hide in.

But those were 15's.....
I had two 15s myself and I promise you are exaggerating. I have a 10" sub sitting on a shelf in my bedroom, and I have to be within an inch to feel any pull on a steel keyring I have laying here.

Bigger subs don't have more powerful magnets, they simply have larger ones. The magnetic field is larger, but not stronger.

latelesley 06-06-2013 06:39 PM

magnetically, it'll be fine, vibration may be your only issue. The speaker magnet will be far enough away from the HDD to not cause an issue, plus the metal case will shield/soak up most of the field if it even reached outside the subwoofer case. I think vibration will be more of a worry, but if you have vibration absorbant mounts, it should be fine.

and TwoCables - I know you are being helpful /cautious, and relying on the manual - but really it is stated to combat the claim culture. Just like bleach has "do not drink" and silica gel packs "do not eat". The hillbillies need protecting. tongue.gif

The magnetic field would probably be enough to damage data on old floppy disks (remember them? biggrin.gif ) but for an HDD in a metal case, It's very unlikely to do damage. Oh and talking about old things, how many PC's in the 386,486, pentium one days had PC speakers (complete with magnet either on or just under the HDD carrier? You get my point I hope. smile.gif

Masta Squidge 06-06-2013 07:29 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by latelesley View Post

magnetically, it'll be fine, vibration may be your only issue. The speaker magnet will be far enough away from the HDD to not cause an issue, plus the metal case will shield/soak up most of the field if it even reached outside the subwoofer case. I think vibration will be more of a worry, but if you have vibration absorbant mounts, it should be fine.

and TwoCables - I know you are being helpful /cautious, and relying on the manual - but really it is stated to combat the claim culture. Just like bleach has "do not drink" and silica gel packs "do not eat". The hillbillies need protecting. tongue.gif

The magnetic field would probably be enough to damage data on old floppy disks (remember them? biggrin.gif ) but for an HDD in a metal case, It's very unlikely to do damage. Oh and talking about old things, how many PC's in the 386,486, pentium one days had PC speakers (complete with magnet either on or just under the HDD carrier? You get my point I hope. smile.gif
They STILL build computers that way. I have a E series dual core from a few years ago sitting onthe floor next to me with a speaker RIGHT NEXT TO the hard drive bay. Seriously, is O is the speaker, it goes like this:

O| | And the drive slots in there on its side.

TwoCables 06-06-2013 07:59 PM

I still refuse to trust a powered subwoofer with a giant magnet on it being close to a hard drive.


Masta Squidge 06-06-2013 08:03 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoCables View Post

I still refuse to trust a powered subwoofer with a giant magnet on it being close to a hard drive.
Good for you. Doesn't make you right.

By the way, a powered subwoofer doesn't have a magnet any larger than one that isn't powered.


A powered sub is nothing more than a regular subwoofer with the amp built into the cabinet. I don't understand why you keep specifying this like there is a difference.

In fact, even the big logitech units aren't as big as you think. Typically they are large passive radiators with a smaller speaker inside. Mine for example has an 8" passive that you can see, but if you take it apart there is a second chamber with a 4" woofer inside it. Most computer speaker setups are this way, and the magnets on those things are much smaller than you would think.

TwoCables 06-06-2013 08:06 PM

Whatever. It's all up to pheria anyway.

 

(yeah, I don't appreciate the way you said "Good for you. Doesn't make you right", so we're done here. You're not going to get people to listen to you when you talk like that)


Masta Squidge 06-06-2013 08:08 PM

I'm blunt. You don't have to like it.

Doesn't make me any less valid.

cjp4eva 06-06-2013 08:09 PM

I would worry about the vibrations and not so much over the magnetism problem.

TwoCables 06-06-2013 08:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masta Squidge View Post

I'm blunt. You don't have to like it.

Doesn't make me any less valid.

 

No, you're not blunt. You're disrespectful and rude and it seems like you're more interested in being competitive (it's like you want to win or something). You need to learn how to teach people.

 

If you want people to listen to you when you're right, then you have to calm down and treat the person as though they're your friend. When was the last time you listened to someone who treated you with disrespect while they were trying to correct you? It's not easy to do, is it? I don't know how you can expect anyone to listen to you when you're rude like that. You call it blunt, I call it rude. It was uncalled for. A successful teacher is calm and respectful, not "blunt" (or rude, aggressive, competitive, etc.).

 

Whatever, though. Just forget it.

 

I think this post serves as a good example of how difficult it is to listen to someone when they're confrontational, rude, aggressive, or "blunt". As you can see, it doesn't matter how right I may be here, it makes you want to fight back instead of listen.


TurboTimeTV 06-06-2013 08:21 PM

I have to agree with Squidge, this is not a dangerous setup at all.

My friend and I had this giant sub (very old, probably not shielded) and we placed next to his tower for 2+ years and there was no issue.

Masta Squidge 06-06-2013 08:21 PM

If I have to be nice for you to listen to facts, then that's your loss. I am not here to teach you, I just post up what I know. If I am wrong, feel free to correct me. In this case I am not.

Destrto 06-06-2013 08:24 PM

Taken from the link posted earlier..
"Actually the magnet on the driver in a large, high-quality speaker is probably enough to screw up the data on a modern drive at 1cm or less, perhaps more. They are also made out of Neodynium and can be quite strong."

The general consensus from what I've seen is this:
While it may not hurt anything to have your case sitting so close to the enlclosure, if you personally are concerned about any aspect of the 2 units being that close, it is better to be safe than sorry.

Masta Squidge 06-06-2013 08:25 PM

1cm or less. As I said, this only cause a problem when the drive is moving and the magnet is placed extremely close to it. This is not because the magnet messes with the data on the platters, but rather it interferes with the armature in the read/write process.

Wiffinberg 06-06-2013 08:31 PM

I have my sub close -ish to my case and its caused no issue thus far.
I would, as others have said, be wary of vibrations though, depending on how much doof doof music or games you have playing.

With a metal case the magnetism becomes null and void for the hard drives sake, but it may distort the sound in the sub depending on the size and strength of the magnet.

I would imagine shielding would make a difference, otherwise what use is it? Are they not shielded to avoid interference?

pioneerisloud 06-06-2013 08:44 PM

As Squidge has said, there is no reason to fear magnetically. Vibrations....that's not going to HARM anything at all, as mechanical hard drives generally have a pretty high tolerance for vibrations and impacts. This is why mechanical drives are still fine inside laptops...which can be dropped and still function.

Either way, its perfectly safe.

Probably doesn't sound too great with the thin metal of your case vibrating with your music, movies, and games. Although I doubt you're too concerned about that anyway.

pioneerisloud 06-06-2013 09:15 PM

Let's keep things on topic in here guys. smile.gif

Wiffinberg 06-06-2013 09:16 PM

Delete:

Xinoxide 06-06-2013 09:20 PM

In your case vibration will probably be the biggest issue as people in this thread have stated.

I just wanted to share a story where I loaned a friend a P35-DS3R... and he stored it on top of a solo-X.

It didn't work right anymore. :\

Lucky for me Gigabyte let me RMA it. thumb.gif

Mygaffer 06-06-2013 09:29 PM

There is no risk. The magnet is not powerful enough to do anything to your hard drives.

racecar56 06-06-2013 09:33 PM

I don't know if this is of any use, but, once, years ago, I made the horrible mistake of putting a running hard drive upside-down on top of a running power supply while having the rig running out of the case. As a result of this, the drive got a bunch of sector errors. I still have it, it spins up fine, but I don't think it's trustworthy. I was darn lucky that the whole reason I was running the rig was to secure erase that drive. Well, it looks like I more-or-less succeeded in doing that!

Note, however, the differences between the scenarios. This hard drive of mine was put right smack on top of a power supply.

tsm106 06-06-2013 09:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoCables View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsm106 View Post

I've thought about it before, but it doesn't seem to bother my server/htpc at all to have a 10" Energy sub thumping right next to it. The server is running 20 drives total btw and 12 in RAID6 and yea its been like this for years.


Then your subwoofer may be magnetically shielded.


rolleyes.gif


Wrong.

racecar56 06-06-2013 09:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsm106 View Post

rolleyes.gif


Wrong.

That is one impressive display picture.

Mygaffer 06-06-2013 09:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoCables View Post

The manual for my speaker system (Altec Lansing VS4121) says that my subwoofer is not shielded and therefore I should keep it at least 2 feet away from magnetic things like hard drives. It doesn't say why, it just says to keep a distance.

So if this is a myth, then why is it in my manual?

It 100% will not effect your drives. I have taken an electromagnet used for wiping old school video tape and ran it over a hard drive, did nothing to the data, I also took a very strong rare earth magnet and ran it over a hard drive, again, nothing the data was completely intact.

The only thing an un-sheilded speaker might damage is a CRT display, and even that is not permanent.

Well reading the rest of the thread looks like we have all come to a consensus. I like TwoCables but you did one thing I hate, and that is believing something with no evidence and when evidence to the contrary is pointed out. The word for it is magical thinking. We are all pretty left brained people here, we hopefully rely on facts and science (i.e. testing it out). I've tested it out and modern hard drives are just not vulnerable to any kind of magnet that you would normally have around your house.

Lord Xeb 06-06-2013 09:41 PM

Your fine.

Bootzonfire 06-06-2013 09:44 PM

I ruined an original Xbox by setting it on top on my Energy Encore 8 subwoofer as I was dusting and re arraigning my room.
I turned on the Xbox and it started wigging out and the picture was all screwed up . It dawned on me that it must have been the magnet from the sub.
The Xbox was never the same again.

my .02

nvidiaftw12 06-06-2013 09:50 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mygaffer View Post


It 100% will not effect your drives. I have taken an electromagnet used for wiping old school video tape and ran it over a hard drive, did nothing to the data, I also took a very strong rare earth magnet and ran it over a hard drive, again, nothing the data was completely intact.

The only thing an un-sheilded speaker might damage is a CRT display, and even that is not permanent.

Well reading the rest of the thread looks like we have all come to a consensus. I like TwoCables but you did one thing I hate, and that is believing something with no evidence and when evidence to the contrary is pointed out. The word for it is magical thinking. We are all pretty left brained people here, we hopefully rely on facts and science (i.e. testing it out). I've tested it out and modern hard drives are just not vulnerable to any kind of magnet that you would normally have around your house.


+1


DaveLT 06-06-2013 10:02 PM

I store a couple of HDDs very near a classic 8" JBL sub with ginormous magnets for a 8" ...
Nothing happened. Keep in mind that magnet is powerful is enough to nearly overwhelm a neodymium magnet that you find in harddisks @ 1/2 INCH!

It's just like the nonsense you hear while taking IT diploma that they would say "Keep harddisks away from sunlight as that has magnetism"

Mygaffer 06-06-2013 10:24 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveLT View Post


It's just like the nonsense you hear while taking IT diploma that they would say "Keep harddisks away from sunlight as that has magnetism"

Sounds like there is a story behind that one. Did someone say this to you?

If so you should have said, "are you asking me to stick my drives where the sun don't shine?"

DaveLT 06-06-2013 10:54 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mygaffer View Post

Sounds like there is a story behind that one. Did someone say this to you?

If so you should have said, "are you asking me to stick my drives where the sun don't shine?"
Yeah, during a lecture. Of which i replied "Where the sun don't shine you'll be asking me not to put my drives?"
Let's just say the lecture ended prematurely and i got another negative rep point again tongue.gif

TwoCables 06-06-2013 11:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsm106 View Post


rolleyes.gif


Wrong.

 

I said that it may be shielded. I didn't say that it is. What the hell?


TwoCables 06-06-2013 11:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mygaffer View Post


It 100% will not effect your drives. I have taken an electromagnet used for wiping old school video tape and ran it over a hard drive, did nothing to the data, I also took a very strong rare earth magnet and ran it over a hard drive, again, nothing the data was completely intact.

The only thing an un-sheilded speaker might damage is a CRT display, and even that is not permanent.

Well reading the rest of the thread looks like we have all come to a consensus. I like TwoCables but you did one thing I hate, and that is believing something with no evidence and when evidence to the contrary is pointed out. The word for it is magical thinking. We are all pretty left brained people here, we hopefully rely on facts and science (i.e. testing it out). I've tested it out and modern hard drives are just not vulnerable to any kind of magnet that you would normally have around your house.

 

Yeah, well I don't listen when someone corrects me in a confrontational way.


pheria 06-07-2013 07:44 AM

Warning in manuals may not be evidence, but I think they're still worth mentioning in this context.

That being said I appreciate the information from everyone a lot.

The distance between the top of my sub and the top of that end table is about 6 inches.

I didn't have a real compass to test with, so I tried to use the compass feature on my phone. It seems like within 4 +/- 1 inches from the sub is enough to interfere with my compass. So that gives me an extra inch or so to the bottom of my case, and the hard drive isn't even mounted on the absolute bottom. I think the magnetic field is dropping off quickly enough.

I'll have to test out vibrations and see what those are like next.

Thanks again for the experience and information.

ramicio 06-07-2013 08:13 AM

It will be fine. Hard drives have stronger magnets in them and right next to the platters. A ferrite magnet on a speaker a few feet away aren't going to do anything to a hard drive. I'd be more concerned for a hard drive seeing that kind of vibration.

Masta Squidge 06-07-2013 10:22 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoCables View Post

Yeah, well I don't listen when someone corrects me in a confrontational way.
That isn't our problem.


That being said... I am still curious as to why you seem to think there is a difference between a "powered" subwoofer, and a "non-powered" subwoofer.

aroc91 06-07-2013 02:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by pheria View Post

I didn't have a real compass to test with, so I tried to use the compass feature on my phone. It seems like within 4 +/- 1 inches from the sub is enough to interfere with my compass. So that gives me an extra inch or so to the bottom of my case, and the hard drive isn't even mounted on the absolute bottom. I think the magnetic field is dropping off quickly enough.

Compasses are pretty easy to interfere with. The Earth's magnetic field has a strength of ~45 µT. My Z2300 sub maxes out at 1700 µT on the top. According to this, degaussers have a coercivity (not measured in teslas like magnetic field strength, but related) starting at 5000 Oe (oersteds). Somebody else pointed out that a ferrite magnet with a coercivity of 2000 Oe has a strength of 0.4 T, so my sub is 235X weaker than a magnet that's even weaker than a degausser. All things considered, I'd say it's safe.

http://superuser.com/questions/568336/what-is-the-tolerable-magnetic-field-in-tesla-for-a-hard-disk


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