Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community

Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community (https://www.overclock.net/forum/)
-   Water Cooling (https://www.overclock.net/forum/61-water-cooling/)
-   -   PETG Tubing VS Acrylic Tubing Pros + Cons (https://www.overclock.net/forum/61-water-cooling/1490076-petg-tubing-vs-acrylic-tubing-pros-cons.html)

MrBlunt 05-16-2014 09:24 PM

Hello! i am thinking about going with PETG tubing rather than acrylic tubing. Seem's much safer to use being so much stronger, i wouldnt have to worry about cracks.

What are your thoughts?

BadDad62 05-17-2014 06:22 AM

Has there been an issue with Acrylic tubing??

Might hear from "B Negative"

B NEGATIVE 05-17-2014 06:56 AM

Cracking is not an issue with acrylic,I have yet to hear of a single incident of tubing cracking and failing.

PETG is not UV stable and water permeation is a factor to consider compared to acrylic.

MrBlunt 05-17-2014 08:22 AM

I've done a couple acrylic rigs. The last one i was moving, and it slipped out of my hand after putting it down and it fell maybe 1". i had cracks from the top rad to the cpu and cracks in another bend. im aware that cracks are usually from being stressed too much when being bent. And if done correctly should be ok. But after watching the videos on PETG, i still havent seen any bad pieces of PETG or results from water permeation, *which i dont really understand**,and i havent seen any real results about being uv unstable. now are they talking about say the amount of uv from one of those dentist curing lights vs sun vs a uv light cathode or led.
This will be an extremely heavy build. i can easily imagine the frame of the pc twisting slightly if picked up which could induce a crack in acrylic.

what do ya think Bnegative

DaveLT 05-17-2014 08:25 AM

Water permeation means that water will evaporate out of PETG due to being able to nanoscopically leak through the tube.

B NEGATIVE 05-17-2014 08:26 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBlunt View Post

I've done a couple acrylic rigs. The last one i was moving, and it slipped out of my hand after putting it down and it fell maybe 1". i had cracks from the top rad to the cpu and cracks in another bend. im aware that cracks are usually from being stressed too much when being bent. And if done correctly should be ok. But after watching the videos on PETG, i still havent seen any bad pieces of PETG or results from water permeation, *which i dont really understand**,and i havent seen any real results about being uv unstable. now are they talking about say the amount of uv from one of those dentist curing lights vs sun vs a uv light cathode or led.
This will be an extremely heavy build. i can easily imagine the frame of the pc twisting slightly if picked up which could induce a crack in acrylic.

what do ya think Bnegative

If you are willing to be the guinea pig then try it but,to me,its not been tested anywhere near long enough for it to be adopted yet.

MrBlunt 05-17-2014 08:35 AM

icic.. Nice builds btw!! +rep

well i already ordered some, and i have both acrylic and PETG.
i have enough spare parts laying around to make a simple loop and expose it to whatever.
any thoughts on that?

B NEGATIVE 05-17-2014 08:38 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBlunt View Post

icic.. Nice builds btw!! +rep

well i already ordered some, and i have both acrylic and PETG.
i have enough spare parts laying around to make a simple loop and expose it to whatever.
any thoughts on that?

Do it,all testing is valid if all components are subject to the same conditions.
It will be a long test for you tho.....months rather than weeks.....


If you post results,i will include them in my acrylic bending thread.

Unicr0nhunter 05-18-2014 07:20 PM

PETG is definitely stronger and is reported to be easier to work with (bends easier) than acrylic. It not being UV resistant like acrylic is though could be an issue I would imagine. Will it yellow or possibly become more brittle over time or who knows what else if exposed to sun or UV lights? Also the fact it is hydroscopic (absorbs water) similar to flexible tubing I suspect could mean it might be more susceptible to staining by dyes/coolants. I don't know the answers to any of those things though as I won't be getting any PETG myself at least not for a while until some of those suggested possibilities of drawbacks from ways it differs from acrylic are confirmed or ruled out.

Is PETG being offered anywhere in any colors like acrylic or just clear?

NASzi 05-18-2014 10:14 PM

been rocking petg for months now with no issues. Not worried about UV because I don't have any UV cathodes in my rig, also the inside of my rig rarely sees daylight. It was much easier to work with than acrylic and I have been very pleased with it.

B NEGATIVE 05-18-2014 11:20 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unicr0nhunter View Post

PETG is definitely stronger and is reported to be easier to work with (bends easier) than acrylic. It not being UV resistant like acrylic is though could be an issue I would imagine. Will it yellow or possibly become more brittle over time or who knows what else if exposed to sun or UV lights? Also the fact it is hydroscopic (absorbs water) similar to flexible tubing I suspect could mean it might be more susceptible to staining by dyes/coolants. I don't know the answers to any of those things though as I won't be getting any PETG myself at least not for a while until some of those suggested possibilities of drawbacks from ways it differs from acrylic are confirmed or ruled out.

Is PETG being offered anywhere in any colors like acrylic or just clear?
Define 'stronger'?
Acrylic has much higher tenstile strength than PETG,PETG can be cold bent while acrylic cannot.
Water permeation causes fogging issues as well as fluiid loss,its this permeation that's concerning to me.

Unicr0nhunter 05-19-2014 02:37 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by B NEGATIVE View Post

Define 'stronger'?
Acrylic has much higher tenstile strength than PETG,PETG can be cold bent while acrylic cannot.
Water permeation causes fogging issues as well as fluiid loss,its this permeation that's concerning to me.
You can try to define 'stronger' any way you want by any standard, but Bill Owen & Jesse's video showing their "hammer test" shows pretty clearly that PETG tubing is MUCH 'stronger' than acrylic. One small tap on the acrylic and it's shattered. Then a dozen or more harder whacks on the PETG results in nary a scratch.

B NEGATIVE 05-19-2014 03:17 AM

So impact strength is your only requirement is it?
A test that is not relevant to use is your metric is it?

Sigh.

What about torsional,tenstile and shear strength? The ones that actually matter...

Buy it if you want,I certainly won't.

DaveLT 05-19-2014 04:06 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by B NEGATIVE View Post

Define 'stronger'?
Acrylic has much higher tenstile strength than PETG,PETG can be cold bent while acrylic cannot.
Water permeation causes fogging issues as well as fluiid loss,its this permeation that's concerning to me.
People are definitely too hung up on just shatter resistance, which is quite rare anything will fall on your acrylic unless you decide to hammer your rig. I definitely wouldn't. Of course, this world are made up of fools.
That's true that's why steel cannot be cold bent but Aluminium can. Of course if you bend steel it will succumb to shearing.

That was my point in that fluid loss is the biggest key issue.

Hefner 05-19-2014 04:23 AM

Acrylic isn't weak by any means. Acrylic has become quite a popular tubing choice as of late and I have yet to see any problems related to shattering acrylic. And I lurk around buildlogs quite a bit of my time. biggrin.gif

Regardless, I am interested how PETG holds over time. It being easier to bend definitely attracts me but the whole extra strength thing seems really pointless.

riesscar 07-11-2014 08:33 PM

Hello all,

I have read through this thread -- as well as those on other forums that discuss this topic -- and I thought I would give my impressions of PETG tubing in comparison to rigid acrylic. I have used only Primochill brand tubing, so it is only this brand for which I can offer insight.

Several people have contested the claim that rigid acrylic is prone to cracking. If you think that it does not crack, you are simply incorrect. I have had two pieces of bent tube that developed hairline cracks... one from accidentally dropping it and the other from causes unknown. Moreover, I had one piece that cracked in half, but this was due to excessive stress caused by my attempting to make a piece fit that was slightly too long. Now, does this mean that rigid acrylic tubing is weak? I guess that depends on how we define weak, so I would not say that. I can say that it is when compared to PETG tubing.

I cannot begin to adequately extoll the virtues of PETG tubing compared to acrylic:

-It is extremely strong and is far more resistant to cracking and scratches. For those who would respond that they haven't had issues with acrylic cracking or scratching, I noticed other virtues of the material.
-It is much easier to work with. It bends more cleanly, and I was able to achieve much cleaner bends (with no variation in diameter along the bend) with far less effort/caution than with rigid acrylic.
-I also found that PETG is capable of sharper bends , requiring a smaller turn radius. Primochill compression fitting collars are easier to slide over PETG tubing and can easily round bends, which means that bends can be made right up to the point of insert -- without needing as much straight tube to line up the compression collar.
-Although PETG is stronger than acrylic, I found it much easier to cut through cleanly, requiring less effort and chipping less.
-PETG tubing is more malleable than rigid acrylic, so if a tube is slightly mis-measured... or if the tubing run was a little off center, it will bow easily, allowing insertion into the fitting. --Lastly, PETG is cheaper -- way way cheaper -- than rigid acrylic. A pack of 4 24" Primochill rigid acrylic tubes costs about 25$, while I purchased a pack of 12 36" Primochill PETG tubing for about the same price (26$ I think).

This is not to say that there aren't any negatives:
-One thing that is noticeable upon close inspection is that PETG tubing does not have the same glass-like transparency that rigid acrylic does . It is difficult for me to articulate the difference in transparency, but I'll try: the rounded PETG tubing has what looks like small lines running down the tubes, which refract light. It's almost as though the tube is made round by making thousands of bends until it appears round (I know that this is not the case, I'm simply trying to describe the way it looks). This is only noticeable upon very close inspection, though, and I would wager that from a few feet away or in a picture, one could not tell the difference between clear acrylic and PETG.
-B Negative reports water permeation as a drawback, so I did a little research. Syan43806 writes:

""PETG" is just another name for PET or Polyethylene Terephthalate. It's literally the same plastic that is found in your soda bottles.

I work in the polymer industry and we manufacturer PET. Overall, this is very interesting but there is ONE concern I do have with PET vs Acrylic and that's the diffusion rate of water in PET vs Acrylic. I don't know about how water acts in acrylic but water can diffuse through PET. For example, a 1 year old soda bottle will look squished because it's lost a lot of water."

This supports B Negatives concern; however, in the same thread GTUK responds

"The water vapour transmission rate of both PET and PETG are similar, but when the PET is stretched or orientated under the correct conditions, the transmission rate can be reduced by about one third. The tube extrusion process does not introduce any orientation into PET."

So the degree to which water permeation is a factor will depend on the manufacturing quality, but it does allow some water vapor to escape over time. If it loses the same amount or less than a plastic soda bottle, though, I imagine I'll be doing maintenance on my loop before this becomes a factor.

-The last purported drawback I have read about is that, as opposed to acrylic, PETG is not resistant to staining. I use Mayhem's red dye, so this was a red flag until I read the following, also written by GTUK:

"The chemical and stain resistance of PET and PETG are very good and will certainly out-perform acrylic. In fact, acrylic (PMMA) is very susceptible to chemical attack, especially when stressed. This normally causes stress cracking, even if the part is annealed to reduce any residual stress."

So, it seems that contrary to what some have claimed, PETG is actually more resistant to staining and tolerates dyes and other chemicals better than acrylic.

In conclusion, I will just say that which tubing to use is a matter of personal preference I suppose. To me, the benefits of PETG far outweigh the drawbacks, and it is now my tubing of choice. I hope that this post has provided users with good info on which they should choose.

-Carson

Unicr0nhunter 07-11-2014 09:19 PM

Yeah but there have been reports (one at themodzoo iirc. EDIT: link) of PETG tube melting in the event of a momentary pump failure, something nylon tube nor acrylic is prone to do before a system powers down for a thermal event. Seems PETG has a lower melting point that could lead to a bad situation becoming something catastrophic.

I also would like to know more how PETG holds up over the long term seeing as it is not listed as being UV resistant like Acrylic. What effects, if any, will sunlight or UV case lighting have on it?

BTW, here's a vid B Negative posted in the acrylic pipebending 101 thread that probably belongs here just as well ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by B NEGATIVE View Post


riesscar 07-11-2014 10:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unicr0nhunter View Post

Yeah but there have been reports (one at themodzoo iirc. EDIT: link) of PETG tube melting in the event of a momentary pump failure, something nylon tube nor acrylic is prone to do before a system powers down for a thermal event. Seems PETG has a lower melting point that could lead to a bad situation becoming something catastrophic.

I also would like to know more how PETG holds up over the long term seeing as it is not listed as being UV resistant like Acrylic. What effects, if any, will sunlight or UV case lighting have on it?

BTW, here's a vid B Negative posted in the acrylic pipebending 101 thread that probably belongs here just as well ...

Interesting... and concerning info on the potential for PETG to melt in the event of pump failure. I have a second pump for redundancy, so the likelihood of my coolant temp rising enough to melt it is low. I wonder what the exact melting point is, though. I wonder if running a 24hr stress test would create the potential for tubing melt. As long as the melting point is higher than say 80 degrees C, I'm not concerned, but any lower than that and I think I can no longer give it my blessing.

Regarding the strength of acrylic, I know that it is strong material... just not nearly as strong as PETG smile.gif

-Carson

riesscar 07-11-2014 11:10 PM

Seems that the operating temp range is -40 C to 82 C. Also, if you read the thread that you linked to, it seems that the PETG malformed rather than melted to the point if leaking. It actually prevented a problem... or so say the posters. Either way, I suppose that I'll just have to wait and see. The potential for heat to cause malformations does mean that bowing the tube in order to get it to fit is probably not a good idea, though.

-Carson

DaveLT 07-11-2014 11:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by riesscar View Post

Interesting... and concerning info on the potential for PETG to melt in the event of pump failure. I have a second pump for redundancy, so the likelihood of my coolant temp rising enough to melt it is low. I wonder what the exact melting point is, though. I wonder if running a 24hr stress test would create the potential for tubing melt. As long as the melting point is higher than say 80 degrees C, I'm not concerned, but any lower than that and I think I can no longer give it my blessing.

Regarding the strength of acrylic, I know that it is strong material... just not nearly as strong as PETG smile.gif

-Carson

PETG is not strong. It's more flexible. Acrylic is strong but BRITTLE. Facts, please. Also btw, PETG is modified with glycol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by riesscar View Post

Seems that the operating temp range is -40 C to 82 C. Also, if you read the thread that you linked to, it seems that the PETG malformed rather than melted to the point if leaking. It actually prevented a problem... or so say the posters. Either way, I suppose that I'll just have to wait and see. The potential for heat to cause malformations does mean that bowing the tube in order to get it to fit is probably not a good idea, though.

-Carson

Malforming is a bad thing in rigid tubing

riesscar 07-12-2014 03:53 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveLT View Post

PETG is not strong. It's more flexible. Acrylic is strong but BRITTLE. Facts, please. Also btw, PETG is modified with glycol.
Malforming is a bad thing in rigid tubing

PETG is not strong? Really? How about some facts then:

PETG : Tensile Strength in PSI = 7,700
Flexular Modules = 310,000

Cast Acrylic: Tensile Strength in PSI = 7,800
Flexular Modules = 350,000

Now, how is it that you claim Acrylic is strong and PETG is not? They are virtually identical in tensile strength and Flexular modules. It seems it is you who fails to provide facts. Where you are correct is that Acrylic is brittle, making it more prone to cracking. Facts, please.

And when you post to correct someone, try not to be so condescending and dismissive.

-Carson

DaveLT 07-12-2014 04:12 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by riesscar View Post

PETG is not strong? Really? How about some facts then:

PETG : Tensile Strength in PSI = 7,700
Flexular Modules = 310,000

Cast Acrylic: Tensile Strength in PSI = 7,800
Flexular Modules = 350,000

Now, how is it that you claim Acrylic is strong and PETG is not? They are virtually identical in tensile strength and Flexular modules. It seems it is you who fails to provide facts. Where you are correct is that Acrylic is brittle, making it more prone to cracking. Facts, please.

And when you post to correct someone, try not to be so condescending and dismissive.

-Carson

How is 310,000 and 350,000 virtually identical It is a difference of about 11%. It's still comparably weaker. Also acrylic is 342000 to 500000 psi tensile strength roughly around 319000 of PETG and their tensile strength is 7000 to 12100
psi vs 7000-8000 of PETG
Also the reason PETG is easier to bend when heated is that they have a low melting/malforming point. That should have been clear
I am being condescending because most of the points you list are all "upsides" when really they aren't. You seem to put PETG in a better light than it truly deserves.

I once lost a system thanks to PETG tubing smile.gif

Another word, isn't PET often stained?

Nilin404 07-12-2014 04:28 AM

Been using petg for a year now. My system is still running and look very clean. I did change the case tho. I bend it all by hand no jig. thumb.gif


riesscar 07-12-2014 05:16 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveLT View Post


How is 310,000 and 350,000 virtually identical It is a difference of about 11%. It's still comparably weaker. Also acrylic is 342000 to 500000 psi tensile strength roughly around 319000 of PETG and their tensile strength is 7000 to 12100
psi vs 7000-8000 of PETG
Also the reason PETG is easier to bend when heated is that they have a low melting/malforming point. That should have been clear
I am being condescending because most of the points you list are all "upsides" when really they aren't. You seem to put PETG in a better light than it truly deserves.

I once lost a system thanks to PETG tubing smile.gif

Another word, isn't PET often stained?

DaveLT,

 

I don't mean to put PETG in a better light than it deserves.  I was posting my impressions after having worked with it.  I will concede that I may have overstated the strength of the material, when what I meant was its tolerance to stress... and yes, it achieves such tolerance from being more malleable.  I am going to have to contest some of the numbers you just provided, though.

 

You wrote "acrylic is 342000 to 500000 psi tensile strength roughly around 319000 of PETG and their tensile strength is 7000 to 12100".  I am sorry, but that is incorrect.  I think that you meant to write 350,000 to 500,000 tensile modules, not strength.  So if we compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges, we will see a different picture:

 

PETG Tensile Modules (psi) = 320,000

Cast Acrylic Tensile Modules (psi) = 350,000

 

PETG Tensile Strength (psi) = 7,700

Cast Acrylic Tensile Strength (psi) = 8,038 (I understated this earlier... see, no bias;))

 

PETG Flexular Strength (psi) = 11,200

Cast Acrylic Flexular Strength (psi) = 12,000

 

So it is true that PETG is not as strong as cast acrylic, but it is very close... and when I say that, I mean that with respect to using it in watercooling loops.

 

You also write that PETG has a "low" melting/malforming point.  Again, I think that you are using the wrong terminology.  According to the data, PETG has no definite melting point.  It's forming temperature (which is what I think you mean) is 137 C to 160 C.  How is this a "low" malformation point in the context of watercooling?  Are you running boiling water in your system?  I don't think that the cause of the mishap that was linked to earlier (at themodzoo.com) was ever determined... so a low malformation thermal point is not "clear".

 

Regardless of any of this, you had no reason to be condescending.  One of things that I love about pc and tech enthusiasts is that I find them to be altruistic, patient and -- although opinionated -- courteous to each other.  If you feel that I am overstating the positives about PETG, then just say so and rebut my assertions.  I took time to write my post, and I did so simply with the intention of giving my impressions... I am always looking to learn, so I would've been more receptive if you'd posted your second post the first time.  Ya know what I mean.

 

You say that you lost a system to PETG tubing... what happened??? sadsmiley.gif I have all my tubing runs done and have leak tested, but I haven't filled with coolant and cranked up my system.  I think that I'll wait for your response to do so.

 

Lastly, in response to your staining question... no, PETG does not stain.  I do not know about PET, but PETG does not.  If there is one thing that I have read repeatedly with regard to PETG virtues, it is that it has "superior chemical resistance" and is less likely to stain than just about any other transparent plastic -- including acrylic (which is not to say that acrylic will stain either).

 

-Carson


riesscar 07-12-2014 05:22 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nilin404 View Post

Been using petg for a year now. My system is still running and look very clean. I did change the case tho. I bend it all by hand no jig. thumb.gif

 

Looks GREAT!!!  You did all of the bends without a jig?  Very impressive.  I like your color combo, but your RAM is not quite the same color... you could remove the heatsinks and paint em though :D (I just did this with my Dominator Platinum Light Bar Upgrade heatsink tops).

 

-Carson


Hefner 07-12-2014 05:27 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by riesscar View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Hello all,

I have read through this thread -- as well as those on other forums that discuss this topic -- and I thought I would give my impressions of PETG tubing in comparison to rigid acrylic. I have used only Primochill brand tubing, so it is only this brand for which I can offer insight.

Several people have contested the claim that rigid acrylic is prone to cracking. If you think that it does not crack, you are simply incorrect. I have had two pieces of bent tube that developed hairline cracks... one from accidentally dropping it and the other from causes unknown. Moreover, I had one piece that cracked in half, but this was due to excessive stress caused by my attempting to make a piece fit that was slightly too long. Now, does this mean that rigid acrylic tubing is weak? I guess that depends on how we define weak, so I would not say that. I can say that it is when compared to PETG tubing.

I cannot begin to adequately extoll the virtues of PETG tubing compared to acrylic:

-It is extremely strong and is far more resistant to cracking and scratches. For those who would respond that they haven't had issues with acrylic cracking or scratching, I noticed other virtues of the material.
-It is much easier to work with. It bends more cleanly, and I was able to achieve much cleaner bends (with no variation in diameter along the bend) with far less effort/caution than with rigid acrylic.
-I also found that PETG is capable of sharper bends , requiring a smaller turn radius. Primochill compression fitting collars are easier to slide over PETG tubing and can easily round bends, which means that bends can be made right up to the point of insert -- without needing as much straight tube to line up the compression collar.
-Although PETG is stronger than acrylic, I found it much easier to cut through cleanly, requiring less effort and chipping less.
-PETG tubing is more malleable than rigid acrylic, so if a tube is slightly mis-measured... or if the tubing run was a little off center, it will bow easily, allowing insertion into the fitting. --Lastly, PETG is cheaper -- way way cheaper -- than rigid acrylic. A pack of 4 24" Primochill rigid acrylic tubes costs about 25$, while I purchased a pack of 12 36" Primochill PETG tubing for about the same price (26$ I think).

This is not to say that there aren't any negatives:
-One thing that is noticeable upon close inspection is that PETG tubing does not have the same glass-like transparency that rigid acrylic does . It is difficult for me to articulate the difference in transparency, but I'll try: the rounded PETG tubing has what looks like small lines running down the tubes, which refract light. It's almost as though the tube is made round by making thousands of bends until it appears round (I know that this is not the case, I'm simply trying to describe the way it looks). This is only noticeable upon very close inspection, though, and I would wager that from a few feet away or in a picture, one could not tell the difference between clear acrylic and PETG.
-B Negative reports water permeation as a drawback, so I did a little research. Syan43806 writes:

""PETG" is just another name for PET or Polyethylene Terephthalate. It's literally the same plastic that is found in your soda bottles.

I work in the polymer industry and we manufacturer PET. Overall, this is very interesting but there is ONE concern I do have with PET vs Acrylic and that's the diffusion rate of water in PET vs Acrylic. I don't know about how water acts in acrylic but water can diffuse through PET. For example, a 1 year old soda bottle will look squished because it's lost a lot of water."

This supports B Negatives concern; however, in the same thread GTUK responds

"The water vapour transmission rate of both PET and PETG are similar, but when the PET is stretched or orientated under the correct conditions, the transmission rate can be reduced by about one third. The tube extrusion process does not introduce any orientation into PET."

So the degree to which water permeation is a factor will depend on the manufacturing quality, but it does allow some water vapor to escape over time. If it loses the same amount or less than a plastic soda bottle, though, I imagine I'll be doing maintenance on my loop before this becomes a factor.

-The last purported drawback I have read about is that, as opposed to acrylic, PETG is not resistant to staining. I use Mayhem's red dye, so this was a red flag until I read the following, also written by GTUK:

"The chemical and stain resistance of PET and PETG are very good and will certainly out-perform acrylic. In fact, acrylic (PMMA) is very susceptible to chemical attack, especially when stressed. This normally causes stress cracking, even if the part is annealed to reduce any residual stress."

So, it seems that contrary to what some have claimed, PETG is actually more resistant to staining and tolerates dyes and other chemicals better than acrylic.

In conclusion, I will just say that which tubing to use is a matter of personal preference I suppose. To me, the benefits of PETG far outweigh the drawbacks, and it is now my tubing of choice. I hope that this post has provided users with good info on which they should choose.

-Carson
I think you've dealt with a poor quality batch of acrylic tubing. I can throw my acrylic tubing at the floor and it won't break, even after repeating several times.

What's the point of stronger tubing when it is surrounded by fragile hardware? Seems so nonsensical to me. Anyone who would allow forces that could destroy acrylic tubing close to their hardware/loop is a barbarian who should not be watercooling his computer.

Acrylic looks best anyways.

Unicr0nhunter 07-12-2014 05:40 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by riesscar View Post

[...] Lastly, in response to your staining question... no, PETG does not stain.  I do not know about PET, but PETG does not.  If there is one thing that I have read repeatedly with regard to PETG virtues, it is that it has "superior chemical resistance" and is less likely to stain than just about any other transparent plastic -- including acrylic (which is not to say that acrylic will stain either).

-Carson

I'm not so sure that "superior chemical resistance" has anything to do with staining. I do know that PETG is hygroscopic, meaning that it absorbs water and that water can evaporate through it, similar to flexible tubing. I was under the impression that its being hygroscopic was the characteristic of flexible tubing that related to it's susceptibility to staining.

riesscar 07-12-2014 05:44 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hefner View Post


I think you've dealt with a poor quality batch of acrylic tubing. I can throw my acrylic tubing at the floor and it won't break, even after repeating several times.

What's the point of stronger tubing when it is surrounded by fragile hardware? Seems so nonsensical to me. Anyone who would allow forces that could destroy acrylic tubing close to their hardware/loop is a barbarian who should not be watercooling his computer.

Acrylic looks best anyways.

Hi Hefner,

 

Perhaps the pieces of acrylic that cracked were from a poor batch, as the piece that fractured when it rolled off the table only fell about four feet.  But the resistance to cracking was only one of the virtues that I listed.  I found that PETG was easier to work with: easier to bend without visual anomalies, quicker to heat to bending temp and quicker to cool, more tolerant to reheating in the event of a slight over-bend or under-bend, cuts more cleanly, will bow for insertion into fittings, and it can make tighter bends without collapsing.  In the case of Primochill fittings, I also found that the collars were able to round bends and needed less clearance from the bend in order to make a flush connection.

 

I didn't claim that its being strong is the only reason I liked it.  Did you really read the post that you quoted?  The comment "Anyone who would allow forces that could destroy acrylic close to their hardware/loop is a barbarian who should not be watercooling his computer" is a strange attack at no one.  I never said that I would be implementing any "force" that would crack acrylic... I said that I liked working with PETG for all of the reasons I mentioned.

 

I agree that acrylic is a better looking material due to it having a more glass-like transparency... and I stated this in my post.  As I also mentioned, I would wager that you could not tell the difference if I posted a picture of acrylic and PETG tubing side-by-side from a few feet away.

 

-Carson 


Nilin404 07-12-2014 05:44 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by riesscar View Post

Looks GREAT!!!  You did all of the bends without a jig?  Very impressive.  I like your color combo, but your RAM is not quite the same color... you could remove the heatsinks and paint em though biggrin.gif  (I just did this with my Dominator Platinum Light Bar Upgrade heatsink tops).

-Carson

Thank you, I will paint the ram in the future and get orange led lighting on my raystorm cpu block smile.gif Prolly add some lights on the front outer edge of the case too.

riesscar 07-12-2014 05:54 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unicr0nhunter View Post


I'm not so sure that "superior chemical resistance" has anything to do with staining. I do know that PETG is hygroscopic, meaning that it absorbs water and that water can evaporate through it, similar to flexible tubing. I was under the impression that its being hygroscopic was the characteristic of flexible tubing that related to it's susceptibility to staining.

I am quoting a seemingly knowledgeable forum member, GTUK, who wrote : 

 

"The chemical and stain resistance of PET and PETG are very good and will certainly out-perform acrylic. In fact, acrylic (PMMA) is very susceptible to chemical attack, especially when stressed. This normally causes stress cracking, even if the part is annealed to reduce any residual stress."

 

PETG and PET are used to contain dyed liquids regularly, though... as well as dyes.

 

I do not know about what causes flexible tubing to stain, though.  If it is because it is hygroscopic, then I would be interested to know why or if PETG doesn't or does stain.  Perhaps Mayhem would be a good resource for knowledge on this, as I know he does extensive testing to ensure that his liquids and dyes are compatible with different tubing and materials and the like.  I wonder if he has done any PETG testing and could weigh in on this question.

 

-Carson


DaveLT 07-12-2014 06:26 AM

Folks, arguing with him is an dying cause. smile.gif I've had enough of his justifications

riesscar 07-12-2014 07:50 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveLT View Post

Folks, arguing with him is an dying cause. smile.gif I've had enough of his justifications

?

Not sure what would evoke such vitriol over my giving my impressions of PETG tubing... truly strange. Use what you want. I was simply giving my opinion and reporting facts to the best of my knowledge.

cstkl1 07-12-2014 09:17 AM

so ya or nay.??

from what u guys have posted.

Pros
Bends easily
Cheaper also without the need of 90 degree adapaters or couplers

Cons
It seems water permeation

Btw read that PETG melting thingy. He himself suspect he was his pump shutoff and it was melting per say but tube shrunk.

Nobody can guarantee a WC is 100% safe. So the cons of the PETG follows equivalent risk as any WC setup. Also i guess no indigo extreme with PETG. that will be suicide with the 100C burn in with the pump off.

GTUK 07-12-2014 09:52 AM

Just to let you know that there are two manufacturers of PETG plastic in the world and I happen to be employed by one of them as Technical Service & New Application Development Manager for Europe and North America. From my use and spelling of English you may be able to tell that I am located in the UK. If anyone really wants any technical advice concerning the use of products made from PETG or wants any performance comparisons with other materials I'll be happy to help where I can. Please keep in mind that for most plastic materials, including PETG and acrylic, there are a range of grades available and the performance of a product may depend on which grade the manufacturer has chosen to use. For example, impact-modified grades are available to provide a better impact strength, but as with many things in life, a modification to improve performance in one area often means that performance in another area is compromised.

cstkl1 07-12-2014 10:11 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTUK View Post

Just to let you know that there are two manufacturers of PETG plastic in the world and I happen to be employed by one of them as Technical Service & New Application Development Manager for Europe and North America. From my use and spelling of English you may be able to tell that I am located in the UK. If anyone really wants any technical advice concerning the use of products made from PETG or wants any performance comparisons with other materials I'll be happy to help where I can. Please keep in mind that for most plastic materials, including PETG and acrylic, there are a range of grades available and the performance of a product may depend on which grade the manufacturer has chosen to use. For example, impact-modified grades are available to provide a better impact strength, but as with many things in life, a modification to improve performance in one area often means that performance in another area is compromised.

so the primochill PETG?

Water permeation how much of a concern is this?? Will be ok as long there is active airflow on the components and the PETG tubes..

riesscar 07-12-2014 10:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTUK View Post

Just to let you know that there are two manufacturers of PETG plastic in the world and I happen to be employed by one of them as Technical Service & New Application Development Manager for Europe and North America. From my use and spelling of English you may be able to tell that I am located in the UK. If anyone really wants any technical advice concerning the use of products made from PETG or wants any performance comparisons with other materials I'll be happy to help where I can. Please keep in mind that for most plastic materials, including PETG and acrylic, there are a range of grades available and the performance of a product may depend on which grade the manufacturer has chosen to use. For example, impact-modified grades are available to provide a better impact strength, but as with many things in life, a modification to improve performance in one area often means that performance in another area is compromised.

Ah ha!!!! I knew that you seemed like an expert in the field. I have a few questions that I would love answered:

- Is PETG susceptible to staining (from dyed coolant)? I have read that it is not UV compatible, so will it yellow over time?

-Does the manufacturing grade/quality affect only the strength, or does it relate to likelihood of malformation at lower heat and resistance to staining/yellowing as well?

- is water permeation a significant issue w/ regard to coolant loss? How much permeation can one expect over a 6-month period lets say?

- at what thermal point will average PETG begin to malform? If the coolant in a loop never rises above 60-70 C, can we expect PETG tubing to keep its shape?

- while it's clear that Acrylic has a higher tensile strength, does PETG have a higher impact strength?

- If you were to build a loop, would you go with acrylic, or do the price differential and other benefits of PETG make it a better choice (in your opinion)?

Thanks so much for the generous offer to clear up the confusion,

-Carson

B NEGATIVE 07-12-2014 01:28 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by riesscar View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveLT View Post

PETG is not strong. It's more flexible. Acrylic is strong but BRITTLE. Facts, please. Also btw, PETG is modified with glycol.
Malforming is a bad thing in rigid tubing

PETG is not strong? Really? How about some facts then:

PETG : Tensile Strength in PSI = 7,700
Flexular Modules = 310,000

Cast Acrylic: Tensile Strength in PSI = 7,800
Flexular Modules = 350,000

Now, how is it that you claim Acrylic is strong and PETG is not? They are virtually identical in tensile strength and Flexular modules. It seems it is you who fails to provide facts. Where you are correct is that Acrylic is brittle, making it more prone to cracking. Facts, please.

And when you post to correct someone, try not to be so condescending and dismissive.

-Carson

Incorrect.

Flexular Modules
Acrylic 480,000
PETG 310,000

Tensile Strength in PSI
Acrylic 10,000
PETG 7,700

http://www.curbellplastics.com/technical-resources/pdf/plastic-material-selection.pdf

riesscar 07-12-2014 01:50 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by B NEGATIVE View Post

Incorrect.

Flexular Modules
Acrylic 480,000
PETG 310,000

Tensile Strength in PSI
Acrylic 10,000
PETG 7,700

http://www.curbellplastics.com/technical-resources/pdf/plastic-material-selection.pdf

B Negative,

Thanks for the link to that info! I looked for a comparative data sheet like that but couldn't find one... and I stand humbly corrected thumb.gif . Dunno why there is variation on these specs from site to site, but it may have to do with what GTUK was saying about variations in manufacturing quality. From your data source, It seems that the only area in which PETG is stronger is izod impact/toughness. I wonder why my acrylic was so probe to cracking/fracturing. Perhaps the acrylic polish was introducing a chemical that it should not have, or perhaps it was a bad kit... or maybe just a bad craftsman blushsmiley.gif: .

Aside from water permeation, are there other downsides to PETG that have been verified? I know that people have claimed staining is an issue, but I have yet to see any proof of it. I also find it hard to imagine coolant temps rising to the point of malforming under
Normal operating temps (i.e. without pump failure).

I'm just trying to figure out the pro' sand cons of the material in a running system, because I find it to be very easy to work with when bending and cutting.

Thanks again

B NEGATIVE 07-12-2014 01:58 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by riesscar View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by B NEGATIVE View Post

Incorrect.

Flexular Modules
Acrylic 480,000
PETG 310,000

Tensile Strength in PSI
Acrylic 10,000
PETG 7,700

http://www.curbellplastics.com/technical-resources/pdf/plastic-material-selection.pdf

B Negative,

Thanks for the link to that info! I looked for a comparative data sheet like that but couldn't find one... and I stand humbly corrected thumb.gif . Dunno why there is variation on these specs from site to site, but it may have to do with what GTUK was saying about variations in manufacturing quality. From your data source, It seems that the only area in which PETG is stronger is izod impact/toughness. I wonder why my acrylic was so probe to cracking/fracturing. Perhaps the acrylic polish was introducing a chemical that it should not have, or perhaps it was a bad kit... or maybe just a bad craftsman blushsmiley.gif: .

Aside from water permeation, are there other downsides to PETG that have been verified? I know that people have claimed staining is an issue, but I have yet to see any proof of it. I also find it hard to imagine coolant temps rising to the point of malforming under
Normal operating temps (i.e. without pump failure).

I'm just trying to figure out the pro' sand cons of the material in a running system, because I find it to be very easy to work with when bending and cutting.

Thanks again

Im not a convert myself,the thread on the mod zoo confirmed it for me,acrylic and nylon tube would not have deformed like that in that scenario.
That and the cold bending property,I want my fittings gripping tight without the tube possibly deforming under stress.

For me,there are too many possible points of fail for PETG to be used like it is being,its still early days...lets see whats what after a year of in the field,primochill are the only guys pushing it and they have produced some of the worst tube ever.

riesscar 07-12-2014 02:10 PM

B Negative,

You make a good point with regard to there being too many potential points of failure. I also completely agree with you in re to Primochill tubing... at least their Primoflex Advanced LRT... it turned greenish-yellow on me twice in a row, and it is reported that this happens to some batches of their tubing and not others. Perhaps my acrylic should not have been purchased from them.

I am out of acylic, and I have only one more tubing run to do... and it does not pose a risk to any critical hardware. Hmmm, do I trust my Aquaero to shut down the systemif the PETG fails on me thinking.gif .

-Carson

DaveLT 07-12-2014 02:39 PM

Also to a earlier point of primochill fittings sliding easily ... Stop using primochill. Try bitspower C47 EML for a change. It is also a compression fitting but you can smash the bottom o ring and not worry about the top not sealing in place and if you do right it is far more secure than ghost fittings or revolvers.

Your real problem is water killing hardware rather than water leaking and overheating.

InCoGnIt0 07-12-2014 02:47 PM

If you want to see how strong PETG tube is then look at this video and watch the "hammer test" at 5:50 ... acrylic would have just shattered into 100 pieces.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGXIw9TYHHw

riesscar 07-12-2014 03:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveLT View Post

Also to a earlier point of primochill fittings sliding easily ... Stop using primochill. Try bitspower C47 EML for a change. It is also a compression fitting but you can smash the bottom o ring and not worry about the top not sealing in place and if you do right it is far more secure than ghost fittings or revolvers.

Your real problem is water killing hardware rather than water leaking and overheating.

This is my first attempt at rigid tubing, so I hindsight is all I have... but I agree with you: Primochill's rigid fittings have a terrible form of compression; however, I have no basis of comparison. I thought I read that BP rigid fittings were not reusable. Bill Owen et al also gave Primochill the green light, so I went with them.

I use Bitspower whenever possible, but I was under the impression that BP fittings are not compatible with any of the bendable rigid tubing... although upon writing that I wonder why all rigid acrylic couldn't be bent. I also thought I read that BP compression fittings were not reusable. Even so, I shopped around and couldn't find a clear product description that indicated "yes, thus is for rigid tubing and you should get 'x' tubing for compatibility. I saw crystal link fittings and tube, but it said that the tube was for multi-GPU connection as opposed to universal rigid tubing. I don't know, in hindsight I don't know why I didn't do my HW before buying... impulse buying is always a bad idea.

Is all rigid acrylic capable of being heated and formed? If so, which tubing brand do you recommend? Any thoughts on Monsoons tubing and fittings? I ask because they seem to be a rising star popularity-wise. They have a compression fitting that involves a glue-on collar: the chain gun fittings. They are quite attractive. I'll switch over when I do maintenance again, but I've been without my PC for so so long... or maybe I'll take the hit on my wallet and go with all new fittings and tubings.... Ugghh, if I could go back in time.

Thanks for the advice,

Carson

DaveLT 07-12-2014 03:18 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by riesscar View Post

This is my first attempt at rigid tubing, so I hindsight is all I have... but I agree with you: Primochill's rigid fittings have a terrible form of compression; however, I have no basis of comparison. I thought I read that BP rigid fittings were not reusable. Bill Owen et al also gave Primochill the green light, so I went with them.

I use Bitspower whenever possible, but I was under the impression that BP fittings are not compatible with any of the bendable rigid tubing... although upon writing that I wonder why all rigid acrylic couldn't be bent. I also thought I read that BP compression fittings were not reusable. Even so, I shopped around and couldn't find a clear product description that indicated "yes, thus is for rigid tubing and you should get 'x' tubing for compatibility. I saw crystal link fittings and tube, but it said that the tube was for multi-GPU connection as opposed to universal rigid tubing. I don't know, in hindsight I don't know why I didn't do my HW before buying... impulse buying is always a bad idea.

Is all rigid acrylic capable of being heated and formed? If so, which tubing brand do you recommend? Any thoughts on Monsoons tubing and fittings? I ask because they seem to be a rising star popularity-wise. They have a compression fitting that involves a glue-on collar: the chain gun fittings. They are quite attractive. I'll switch over when I do maintenance again, but I've been without my PC for so so long... or maybe I'll take the hit on my wallet and go with all new fittings and tubings.... Ugghh, if I could go back in time.

Thanks for the advice,

Carson

Uh no all you heard were ... stink? Seriously. Not reusable? O.o
All rigid acrylic can be bent i have no idea what gave you the impression that they can't be bent. I buy cheap ones because they are more or less the same ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by InCoGnIt0 View Post

If you want to see how strong PETG tube is then look at this video and watch the "hammer test" at 5:50 ... acrylic would have just shattered into 100 pieces.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGXIw9TYHHw
Again, PETG is not strong but it's not brittle.

Unicr0nhunter 07-12-2014 03:18 PM

@riesscar,

Acrylic pipebending 101
https://www.overclock.net/t/1388300/acrylic-pipebending-101/

Answers to most if not all of your questions can be found in the first post. Also the best thread I can imagine for asking / getting answers to any other questions you may have.

As far as acrylic goes, I've used Bitspower C47s with EK tubing and Primochill fittings with tubing from Primochill and McMaster-Carr, and can't say I've had any significantly easier/harder experiences with any. All seems about the same to me as far as bending goes and I've had no issues with any of the fittings. I rather prefer the Primochill fittings tbh. They have been very easy to work with, I don't have to bother with tapering/cleaning up the edge of the tube like I did with the bitspower, and they grip the tube just fine in my experience. Only knock I have against them is they are so much bigger. A bit too big imho.

DaveLT 07-12-2014 03:37 PM

I did mention C47 EML and not old C47.

Unicr0nhunter 07-12-2014 04:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveLT View Post

I did mention C47 EML and not old C47.

Yeah I noticed. I've no experience yet with the Enhanced Multi Links, however my point was that the Primochill fittings work great imho which you were saying to stop using. I've never had any problems with them not gripping the tube tightly and never had a drop of a leak yet from any of them.

riesscar 07-12-2014 04:37 PM

Definitely in agreement on the size of the Primo fittings... in addition to clearance issues, they are unsightly when paired with adapters/ extensions and the like. I'm really interested in the Monsoon fitting line. I'd be interested to hear what experiences users have had with them.

I should probably post these questions in the appropriate thread, though, as I am straying from the thread topic. Thanks for the advice/insights, though.

-Carson

DaveLT 07-12-2014 05:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unicr0nhunter View Post

Yeah I noticed. I've no experience yet with the Enhanced Multi Links, however my point was that the Primochill fittings work great imho which you were saying to stop using. I've never had any problems with them not gripping the tube tightly and never had a drop of a leak yet from any of them.
They aren't cheap, are enormous and not as secure as EMLs and nobody understand that I mean "comparably" I don't have to add it into every sentence do I ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by riesscar View Post

Definitely in agreement on the size of the Primo fittings... in addition to clearance issues, they are unsightly when paired with adapters/ extensions and the like. I'm really interested in the Monsoon fitting line. I'd be interested to hear what experiences users have had with them.

I should probably post these questions in the appropriate thread, though, as I am straying from the thread topic. Thanks for the advice/insights, though.

-Carson
Monsoon problems still exist. Their quality is atrocious as is their paint work. I used to have 2 boxes of monsoon free center fittings and it is difficult to install. Sold 1 box already of course.

riesscar 07-13-2014 02:39 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveLT View Post

They aren't cheap, are enormous and not as secure as EMLs and nobody understand that I mean "comparably" I don't have to add it into every sentence do I ...
Monsoon problems still exist. Their quality is atrocious as is their paint work. I used to have 2 boxes of monsoon free center fittings and it is difficult to install. Sold 1 box already of course.

I see. I actually read this elsewhere on the forums. I hear they are prone to leaking... it's a shame because they are aesthetically brilliant in my opinion.

-Carson

Prophet4NO1 07-13-2014 08:45 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unicr0nhunter View Post

You can try to define 'stronger' any way you want by any standard, but Bill Owen & Jesse's video showing their "hammer test" shows pretty clearly that PETG tubing is MUCH 'stronger' than acrylic. One small tap on the acrylic and it's shattered. Then a dozen or more harder whacks on the PETG results in nary a scratch.

I work in the oilfields. I have tools that I work with that can sit is a 300F well at 10,000 psi and be fine. Drop it and you just ruined $100k plus tool. Same goes for high pressure lines used. Heavy metal pipe with 10,000psi of water and sand rushing through at 100 barrels a minute. Do it for days or weeks on end no issues. Hit it with a 8lbs hammer, scrapped. The test needs to based on the application in question. If not its pointless.

MrBlunt 07-13-2014 10:14 AM

All of my rigid fittings are Primochill.. EXCELLENT quality. never had a single leak with any, and extremely tight fitting. Also, very easy to grip. i've used the oldschool wider ones, and the newer knurled ones.. love both. thumb.gif

riesscar 07-13-2014 10:55 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBlunt View Post

All of my rigid fittings are Primochill.. EXCELLENT quality. never had a single leak with any, and extremely tight fitting. Also, very easy to grip. i've used the oldschool wider ones, and the newer knurled ones.. love both. thumb.gif

As I mentioned, I've only ever used Primochill fittings for rigid tubing, so I have no basis of comparison with other fittings. I just noticed that when compared to flex tube compression fittings, the Primochill ghost fitting collars are difficult to slide around bends -- presumably because of a change in diameter after a bend (I.e. flattening out slightly). Also, to the point that UnicrOnhunter made, the fittings and collars are bulky. I find that they don't look great when paired with fitting adapters/extensions. For example, the thread depth of the ghost fittings was to deep for my EK RIVE BE southbridge block's right hand port, so I used an EK spacer/adapter fitting.... doesn't look too great frown.gif

But I have not had any issues with leaking, so I agree that they perform well once you get them screwed in.

Carson

DaveLT 07-13-2014 11:07 AM

Why would you want to slide a collar around bends?

lowfat 07-13-2014 11:22 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveLT View Post

Why would you want to slide a collar around bends?

You don't. But the tubing before a bend isn't perfectly circular. An inch or two of the tubing before the bend is deformed and it can be very difficult / not possible to put the compression ring over the tubing.

DaveLT 07-13-2014 11:30 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowfat View Post

You don't. But the tubing before a bend isn't perfectly circular. An inch or two of the tubing before the bend is deformed and it can be very difficult / not possible to put the compression ring over the tubing.
I see.

lowfat 07-13-2014 11:36 AM

But it sounds like he was referring to flexible tubing so actually I don't know what he means. tongue.gif

MrBlunt 07-13-2014 11:39 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by riesscar View Post

As I mentioned, I've only ever used Primochill fittings for rigid tubing, so I have no basis of comparison with other fittings. I just noticed that when compared to flex tube compression fittings, the Primochill ghost fitting collars are difficult to slide around bends -- presumably because of a change in diameter after a bend (I.e. flattening out slightly). Also, to the point that UnicrOnhunter made, the fittings and collars are bulky. I find that they don't look great when paired with fitting adapters/extensions. For example, the thread depth of the ghost fittings was to deep for my EK RIVE BE southbridge block's right hand port, so I used an EK spacer/adapter fitting.... doesn't look too great frown.gif

But I have not had any issues with leaking, so I agree that they perform well once you get them screwed in.

Carson
i ran into this EXACT problem. that's what caused my first and only leak ever.. the the shank of hte fitting was too long and didnt allow for the oring to sit properly. =\ leaked straight down through my cpu socket and over and inside both waterblocked titans... and not just distilled... this was koolance uv red premix. lol..

i also know what you mean about them needing a longer straight piece of acrylic from the bend to slide on.. my lil fix for this problem was to put the collar and oring on just at the tip of the piece of acrylic, get it threaded just barely, than there was enough wiggle to seat the tubes against the inside of the fittings.

riesscar 07-13-2014 11:42 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBlunt View Post

i ran into this EXACT problem. that's what caused my first and only leak ever.. the the shank of hte fitting was too long and didnt allow for the oring to sit properly. =\ leaked straight down through my cpu socket and over and inside both waterblocked titans... and not just distilled... this was koolance uv red premix. lol..

i also know what you mean about them needing a longer straight piece of acrylic from the bend to slide on.. my lil fix for this problem was to put the collar and oring on just at the tip of the piece of acrylic, get it threaded just barely, than there was enough wiggle to seat the tubes against the inside of the fittings.

That's a good idea... wish I'd thought of that! My fix was elbow grease and scuffing of the acrylic rolleyes.gif

riesscar 07-13-2014 12:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBlunt View Post

i ran into this EXACT problem. that's what caused my first and only leak ever.. the the shank of hte fitting was too long and didnt allow for the oring to sit properly. =\ leaked straight down through my cpu socket and over and inside both waterblocked titans... and not just distilled... this was koolance uv red premix. lol.. .


BTW, what did you do to remedy the problem? Did you use a shorter threaded adapter like I did? I ask because -- as I just wrote in a thread I started -- I have begun to wonder if I should use EK Extenders (http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=31185) on the other ports of my EK blocks... not because I cannot screw the fittings in far enough to make a seal, but because I worry that the deep threads may be causing additional restriction. Any thoughts?

-Carson

riesscar 07-13-2014 12:42 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowfat View Post

But it sounds like he was referring to flexible tubing so actually I don't know what he means. tongue.gif

No, you were right. I was referring to difficulty sliding collars over rigid tube once it's bent. I mentioned flex tubing because I was comparing the ease with which the compression collars slides over flexible tubing. I only make the comparison with flexible tube compression collars because, as I've mentioned, I have no other basis of comparison since I've only used one brand of rigid tube compression fittings.

Carson

MrBlunt 07-13-2014 02:16 PM

i have seen no performance degradation.. i used a small bitspower extension just something to give it a deeper thread. Since it was the same motherboard i used twice, the second time i just used a different fitting, a 90degree to a rigid fitting.

DaveLT 07-13-2014 04:04 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBlunt View Post

i have seen no performance degradation.. i used a small bitspower extension just something to give it a deeper thread. Since it was the same motherboard i used twice, the second time i just used a different fitting, a 90degree to a rigid fitting.
Having to extend often looks terrible because they are of mismatched sizes, obviously. The reason I went to acrylic was to save money on right angle fittings tongue.gif (And boy did I save lots of money)

MrBlunt 07-13-2014 04:18 PM

well sometimes ya just need to use one. biggrin.gif

OwaN 07-14-2014 08:00 AM

So I keep seeing a lot of conflicting information based on anecdotal or uncited info in forums (i.e. "PETG is more water permeable than Acrylic", or , "PETG is stronger than acrylic"), so its nice to see some people at least posting some actual numbers, even if they're tough to digest without any kind of context. So I've been looking at various numbers, and found these from McMaster re: PETG and extruded acrylic (link)

PETG
Tensile strength (PSI): 7100-10250
Impact Strength (ft-lbs/in): 1.8
water absorption (%): 0.13-0.2
Density (lbs/in^3): 0.046
Thermal Expansion (in/in/F): 3.8e-05

Acrylic (extruded)
Tensile strength (PSI): 8100-11030
Impact Strength (ft-lbs/in): 0.3-0.7
water absorption (%): 0.2-0.4
Density (lbs/in^3): 0.043
Thermal Expansion (in/in/F): 3.0-4.0e-05

I'm not going to say that McMaster is necessarily an authoritative reference grade source for these numbers, but what I'm seeing here seems to contradict at least some of the conventional wisdom on the forums. First and foremost is the water absorption values, which are the same or actually lower for PETG than Acrylic. My knowledge of product packaging actually backs this up, as PET is used in a lot of beverage packaging specifically because of its good moisture barrier properties (usually in conjunction with PVOH as its oxygen permeability is high). As far as tensile strength goes, my impression is that they are functionally equivalent... you can't sell me that a 1000 PSI difference is meaningful when the quoted range for each of those resins is 3000 PSI. Impact strength is obviously higher for PETG (aka the mod zoo hammer test), but we should understand thats not a realistic test unless you're worried about dropping your tubes on the ground when installing them or something....

Whats not covered here that I'm actually concerned about? Is PETG's lower working temp an actual issue in an application? so far I've seen no evidence other than anecdotal tales of melted tubes and the operating temps should be way lower than the glass transition temps, but the point about a pump failure seems valid (even though my expectation is that you'd hit shutdown temps on the cores way before any tubes would melt). My other concern is resistance to creep. Those floppy water bottles everyone likes to bring up as evidence of water permeation probably have more to do with creep than water escaping. My instinct would say that compared to thin wall blowmolded bottles, 1/16" walled PETG tubing would have much less of an issue, but I don't know that for a fact.

I might try to speak to some of the packaging engineers at work to see if they have any insights into this one

riesscar 07-14-2014 02:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by OwaN View Post

So I keep seeing a lot of conflicting information based on anecdotal or uncited info in forums (i.e. "PETG is more water permeable than Acrylic", or , "PETG is stronger than acrylic"), so its nice to see some people at least posting some actual numbers, even if they're tough to digest without any kind of context. So I've been looking at various numbers, and found these from McMaster re: PETG and extruded acrylic (link)

PETG
Tensile strength (PSI): 7100-10250
Impact Strength (ft-lbs/in): 1.8
water absorption (%): 0.13-0.2
Density (lbs/in^3): 0.046
Thermal Expansion (in/in/F): 3.8e-05

Acrylic (extruded)
Tensile strength (PSI): 8100-11030
Impact Strength (ft-lbs/in): 0.3-0.7
water absorption (%): 0.2-0.4
Density (lbs/in^3): 0.043
Thermal Expansion (in/in/F): 3.0-4.0e-05

I'm not going to say that McMaster is necessarily an authoritative reference grade source for these numbers, but what I'm seeing here seems to contradict at least some of the conventional wisdom on the forums. First and foremost is the water absorption values, which are the same or actually lower for PETG than Acrylic. My knowledge of product packaging actually backs this up, as PET is used in a lot of beverage packaging specifically because of its good moisture barrier properties (usually in conjunction with PVOH as its oxygen permeability is high). As far as tensile strength goes, my impression is that they are functionally equivalent... you can't sell me that a 1000 PSI difference is meaningful when the quoted range for each of those resins is 3000 PSI. Impact strength is obviously higher for PETG (aka the mod zoo hammer test), but we should understand thats not a realistic test unless you're worried about dropping your tubes on the ground when installing them or something....

Whats not covered here that I'm actually concerned about? Is PETG's lower working temp an actual issue in an application? so far I've seen no evidence other than anecdotal tales of melted tubes and the operating temps should be way lower than the glass transition temps, but the point about a pump failure seems valid (even though my expectation is that you'd hit shutdown temps on the cores way before any tubes would melt). My other concern is resistance to creep. Those floppy water bottles everyone likes to bring up as evidence of water permeation probably have more to do with creep than water escaping. My instinct would say that compared to thin wall blowmolded bottles, 1/16" walled PETG tubing would have much less of an issue, but I don't know that for a fact.

I might try to speak to some of the packaging engineers at work to see if they have any insights into this one

Thanks for the interesting numbers. Much of what you've written are my thoughts exactly. But I'll,just warn you that this topic seems to be an issue that people have strangely passionate feelings about. After posting my impressions of the tubing, I received an onslaught of hostile posts. I have just decided that time will tell with regard to this tubing... but like you said: I find the notion that the operating temp getting high enough to melt the tubing to be a dubious one to say the least. The water creep issue is a possibility, but I'll keep an eye on my reservoir level and get back to y'all if I notice significant loss (and I don't have a slow leak rolleyes.gif )

-Carson

OwaN 07-14-2014 03:23 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by riesscar View Post

Thanks for the interesting numbers. Much of what you've written are my thoughts exactly. But I'll,just warn you that this topic seems to be an issue that people have strangely passionate feelings about. After posting my impressions of the tubing, I received an onslaught of hostile posts. I have just decided that time will tell with regard to this tubing... but like you said: I find the notion that the operating temp getting high enough to melt the tubing to be a dubious one to say the least. The water creep issue is a possibility, but I'll keep an eye on my reservoir level and get back to y'all if I notice significant loss (and I don't have a slow leak rolleyes.gif )

-Carson

Yes I noticed and I'm not exactly sure why people seem so worked up about using something other than acrylic other than because it is unproven... and even then I would have expected more caution than vitriol.

So where did this idea that it is permeable to water come from? Is the water absorption value different than a permeability coefficient? I suspect not as I have seen other sources quoting superior values for PET vs acrylic elsewhere as well (link, see plexiglass in the chart for cast acrylic value). If you really want to go nuts you can calculate the transmission using this tool I found (use PMMA for acrylic).

My goal isn't to discredit anyone, I'm purely in a research mode myself, and if my assumptions are completely incorrect I'd like to know now before going out and hard-lining my rig, but if acrylic and PETG tubing are *functionally equivalent* then why would I spend the money on acrylic?

ch0c 10-03-2014 05:00 PM

Basically, you will find four types of plastic hard tubing from plastic industrial suppliers, extruded acrylic, cast acrylic, petg (or copolyester, vivak) and polycarbonate.


Cast acrylic is generally VERY expensive, and is only used for thick, wide (1-2in or wider diameters) hard tubes. The sidewalls are generally very thick and it is very heavy. We will find this impossible to use in our application.


This leaves us with PETG, and Polycarbonate. Most 'waterfooling' nerds already 'know' about 'acrylic hard tube'(extruded).

Generally polycarbonate is considered to be the gold standard, and generally the most expensive. Manufacturer's brochures state that PETG or VIVAK may have better malleability (forming) after heating and shaping. (or they use it as a feature to sell product) Polycarbonate, which is used in some waterfooling reservoirs because it is considered to be the most durable. This is so there wont be any more blaming caustic coolants when their shoddy extruded acrylic reservoirs (and tubing) crack under pressure (aHEM PRIMOChill AHEM).

This brings us to another point, primochill claiming that 'caustic coolant' (SAY IT, ETHYLENE GLYCOL) harms, cracks, destroys, whatevers, acrylic is sheer stupidity. Ethylene glycol is one of the main chemicals used in creating acrylic and constitutes a major part of the final product. Why would it destroy only their hard tubes/reservoirs and not, oooh lets say, bitspowers, bitspowers blocks, ek waterblocks, ek reserviors, bitspower reserviors, xspc blocks, xspc reserviors, alphacool stuff? (ETC) Probably because they cut corners, and put out cheap extruded acrylic products and act like they are some kind of industrial grade goodness?

Clear extruded Acrylic is not an ideal place to house coolant. Yes, coolant. But it by no means should harm it. Users do need to stop thinking of their computer as some magical potable water pure goodness safety machine and think of it more like what it is, a multi - metal closed loop watercooling system designed to dissipate heat caused at a source. Much like, a car, a motorcycle, or an ATV. Actually, its EXACTLY like a car/bike. We are just trying to be show-offy, which is OK.....


Just don't get 'waterfooled', any automotive coolant by the gallon is the best stuff you can get for your loop. It's the cheapest, its pre-mixed, and its everywhere. Just don't switch up brands now, we don't want dex-cool mixing with toyota coolant etc etc. but this is another topic.......



Sources ;

http://johnstonplastics.com/catalogue/index.html

and some other stuff, lazy...

DaveLT 10-04-2014 09:39 AM

that's why I'm not buying primochill smile.gif
Auomotive coolant fouls up our stuff that we want to "show off"

MrBlunt 10-04-2014 10:17 AM

so check it out.. i've been using PETG and Acrylic in the same loop for about 5 months. Mayhems X1 UV green. No staining in either acrylic or the PETG tube. i havent had any coolant loss. Also i've had UV LED's on just about half the time. this computer has been mining since i found a new coin and needed to hop on it quick i used this machine. so after 5 months without turning it off, well aside from the occasional restart. EVERYTHING is doing great. i'm about to drain and change the fluid though this week. anyway, just an update thumb.gifbiggrin.gif

riesscar 10-04-2014 12:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBlunt View Post

so check it out.. i've been using PETG and Acrylic in the same loop for about 5 months. Mayhems X1 UV green. No staining in either acrylic or the PETG tube. i havent had any coolant loss. Also i've had UV LED's on just about half the time. this computer has been mining since i found a new coin and needed to hop on it quick i used this machine. so after 5 months without turning it off, well aside from the occasional restart. EVERYTHING is doing great. i'm about to drain and change the fluid though this week. anyway, just an update thumb.gifbiggrin.gif

I will go ahead and give my follow up as well. I have been running my system 24/7 with some gaming and occasional overclocking for about 2 months now. I have both PETG and Acrylic tubing in the loop, and there is NO observable difference in appearance between the two (ie transparency) when filled with dyed coolant or when observed from a typical distance -- in other words, not inspecting it up close with a magnifying glass.

Now, while I cannot say that I am an authority on plastics -- or even in the know, really -- I can report that none of PETG's purported downsides and risks are valid. I have observed no malformation, no water creep, no staining... and none of the other imaginary issues that DaveLT et al cite as evidence that we who are interested in this less expensive alternative are foolish or irresponsibly endangering our systems. I mention DaveLT specifically, as he was critical of any of the pro's I listed in my review, and -- as opposed to BNegative, who said that he would reserve judgement until more time passed to alleviate concerns -- he was completely convinced of PETG's unreliability and inferiority based on anecdotal evidence reported by one user on another forum.

I therefore stand by my initial positive review of PETG, and will again list all of the reasons that it is superior to acrylic in my opinion:

- It is easier to work with and is more tolerant of reheating to correct a bend. It heats up more quickly, bends more easily, and cools down more quickly... all positives.

- It is far less prone to chipping and cracking

- It has a stronger chemical resistance, so it's integrity is not compromised by exposure to substances that might adversely affect the structural integrity of acrylic (I painted the tubing in my last build, for instance; although, in fairness, the acrylic held up just fine as well.)

- while clear PETG tubing does not have quite the same glasslike transparency that clear acrylic does, the difference is so slight that I cannot imagine anyone being able to distinguish between the two without specifically looking for it (up close under a bright light).

- PRICE!!! It is not just a little cheaper than acrylic, it is FAR less expensive. A pack of 4x 24" acrylic tubing from Monsoon (I won't mention Primochill since they seem to be the target of hostility in this thread... probably for good reasons) costs 16$, while a pack of 4x 36" PETG tubing costs 17$. You do the math.

Given that I have not seen any substantiated evidence of PETG being inferior to acrylic, and due to the fact that it costs significantly less, I will be using PETG from now on. Before I am attacked by the trolls like before, know that I don't care what anyone else chooses to use. If you want to pay more for acrylic or prefer it for whatever reason, then great... go ahead. But for those who are not vehemently opposed to using anything but acrylic, I can say that PETG is the way to go.

-Carson

DaveLT 10-04-2014 02:22 PM

Oh so I talked about my experience with PETG and you felt the need to attack me over it?

Nice work.

riesscar 10-04-2014 02:50 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveLT View Post

Oh so I talked about my experience with PETG and you felt the need to attack me over it?

Nice work.

No, you responded to my impressions of PETG with a condescending remark, which you then attempted to excuse by saying that you were justified in doing so due to my having only listed pro's, and that I was mistaken about all of the good things I had to say about it.  I responded by saying that I would be more receptive if you had just rebutted my remarks as opposed to being unkind, and your next post was something along the lines of "folks, it's pointless to argue with him".  Truly ironic given that you are a troll.  This is beyond question.  I actually testing this by agreeing with you in a thread, and you proceeded to disagree with me... because that it what trolls do.  I have read many of your posts and I can say without hyperbole that you are among the most negative and rude individuals on OCN.  Just look at the post you wrote before last: a negative attack on Primochill.  Or how about the one before, a criticism of a user choosing to use a 90 degree adapter with rigid tubing.  Just look at any of your posts: all bitter and dismissive. 

 

I don't want to get this thread off topic, so just go ahead a respond with one of your usual callous remarks and that'll be that.  Then, those of us interested in having a productive discussion can resume doing so.

 

-Carson


OwaN 10-04-2014 04:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by riesscar View Post

I will go ahead and give my follow up as well. I have been running my system 24/7 with some gaming and occasional overclocking for about 2 months now. I have both PETG and Acrylic tubing in the loop, and there is NO observable difference in appearance between the two (ie transparency) when filled with dyed coolant or when observed from a typical distance -- in other words, not inspecting it up close with a magnifying glass.

Now, while I cannot say that I am an authority on plastics -- or even in the know, really -- I can report that none of PETG's purported downsides and risks are valid. I have observed no malformation, no water creep, no staining... and none of the other imaginary issues that DaveLT et al cite as evidence that we who are interested in this less expensive alternative are foolish or irresponsibly endangering our systems. I mention DaveLT specifically, as he was critical of any of the pro's I listed in my review, and -- as opposed to BNegative, who said that he would reserve judgement until more time passed to alleviate concerns -- he was completely convinced of PETG's unreliability and inferiority based on anecdotal evidence reported by one user on another forum.

I therefore stand by my initial positive review of PETG, and will again list all of the reasons that it is superior to acrylic in my opinion:

- It is easier to work with and is more tolerant of reheating to correct a bend. It heats up more quickly, bends more easily, and cools down more quickly... all positives.

- It is far less prone to chipping and cracking

- It has a stronger chemical resistance, so it's integrity is not compromised by exposure to substances that might adversely affect the structural integrity of acrylic (I painted the tubing in my last build, for instance; although, in fairness, the acrylic held up just fine as well.)

- while clear PETG tubing does not have quite the same glasslike transparency that clear acrylic does, the difference is so slight that I cannot imagine anyone being able to distinguish between the two without specifically looking for it (up close under a bright light).

- PRICE!!! It is not just a little cheaper than acrylic, it is FAR less expensive. A pack of 4x 24" acrylic tubing from Monsoon (I won't mention Primochill since they seem to be the target of hostility in this thread... probably for good reasons) costs 16$, while a pack of 4x 36" PETG tubing costs 17$. You do the math.

Given that I have not seen any substantiated evidence of PETG being inferior to acrylic, and due to the fact that it costs significantly less, I will be using PETG from now on. Before I am attacked by the trolls like before, know that I don't care what anyone else chooses to use. If you want to pay more for acrylic or prefer it for whatever reason, then great... go ahead. But for those who are not vehemently opposed to using anything but acrylic, I can say that PETG is the way to go.

-Carson

Glad to hear there isn't any observed downside to running PETG for the long(ish) haul. At this point I think we would have seen a lot more complaints about PETG if there were any real deficiencies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveLT View Post

Oh so I talked about my experience with PETG and you felt the need to attack me over it?

Nice work.

Considering your earlier attitude in this thread, I'm not sure you're in a good position to call yourself a victim here.

DaveLT 10-05-2014 12:35 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by OwaN View Post

Considering your earlier attitude in this thread, I'm not sure you're in a good position to call yourself a victim here.
Who are you kidding?

riesscar 10-05-2014 02:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by OwaN View Post

Considering your earlier attitude in this thread, I'm not sure you're in a good position to call yourself a victim here.

:applaud:

 

Thank you! I just read over the entire thread, and his candor is absolutely horrific.  I actually was just talking to my sister (I mention her because she's a journalist with a blog) about how strange trolls are... one has to wonder if they are pathologically argumentative in their lives outside these forums as well.  Perhaps this is where the aggression is released -- unfortunately this is not the case in all likelihood; rather, people like DaveLT are most likely narcissistic and are releasing that narcissistic rage :mad:.

 

Just kidding around DaveLT :p.  But if you read the comments you have made in this thread, you should acknowledge it and stop being a jerk.  You seem knowledgeable, but these forums are for productive, informative discussion... not for three sentence posts in which you are frequently demeaning.  You do not seek to explain your perspective, but to condescendingly dismiss those espoused others.  Why not try to impart your knowledge to others instead of just telling others that they are wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveLT View Post
 
Who are you kidding?

 

No one.  This would be a good example of a hostile response.  This is called being dismissive... you do understand that, right?

 

Anyway, this is off-topic so I'll just say that I think you need to evaluate your attitude objectively.

 

-Carson


MGazonda 10-05-2014 06:28 AM

Any thoughts on environmental factors (such as manufacturing and recycling/disposal) coming into play with acrylic and petg?

riesscar 10-05-2014 08:22 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MGazonda View Post

Any thoughts on environmental factors (such as manufacturing and recycling/disposal) coming into play with acrylic and petg?

I'm not quite sure what you mean. Are you referring to manufacturing quality? Or are you asking about the environmental impact of manufacturing and disposal of plastics? He former I can answer, but the latter would be irrelevant to this forum, I think.
If it is the former, a user wrote in a post earlier in the thread that acrylic quality varies, but I'm not sure about PETG. If it is the case that PETG is produced by only two companies in the world - as was stated by GTUK - I can't imagine much variance.

- Carson

MGazonda 10-05-2014 08:58 AM

I'm concerned about environmental impact of implementing a water cooling loop, and considering this is a thread on the pros/cons of acrylic and PETG, I see this as the right place to ask.

NilonHicks 10-05-2014 09:11 AM

Can you bend petg without jig?

OwaN 10-05-2014 09:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MGazonda View Post

I'm concerned about environmental impact of implementing a water cooling loop, and considering this is a thread on the pros/cons of acrylic and PETG, I see this as the right place to ask.
PETG should be easily recyclable as it is one of the most common resins used in plastic packaging. Acrylic is not typically recycled through normal channels

riesscar 10-05-2014 09:55 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by NilonHicks View Post

Can you bend petg without jig?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MGazonda View Post

I'm concerned about environmental impact of implementing a water cooling loop, and considering this is a thread on the pros/cons of acrylic and PETG, I see this as the right place to ask.

Fair enough... I think OwaN is probably right, but I don't know much about which plastics are recyclable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NilonHicks View Post

Can you bend petg without jig?

Yes, but you can bend acrylic without one as well. A jig can make things easier, but as I got practice I ended up just doing the bends without one. The nice thing about PETG is that if I bend a little less or more than I meant to, it is very easy to heat up the bend a little and correct it without creating visual anomalies or compromising the structural integrity of the tubing.

-Carson

emsj86 12-02-2014 09:46 AM

What should I buy arylic or petg. Also what should I use to make my bends? I see there out kits but what is the easiest way and best way in your eyes thank you

riesscar 12-02-2014 10:17 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by emsj86 View Post

What should I buy arylic or petg. Also what should I use to make my bends? I see there out kits but what is the easiest way and best way in your eyes thank you

As you may have read in prior posts, this is an issue of some contention; therefore, I can only give you my personal recommendation based on my own experience:

 

Acrylic Pro's:  

 

- Prettier, glasslike appearance

- Stronger in that it has a higher tensile strength

- Higher melting/forming point, which some feel is a safeguard against water temps rising (I guess... I don't know how hot other systems run, but I tend to avoid boiling water ;) )

 

Acrylic Con's:

 

- Brittle, in that it can crack and chip, develop hairline fractures... it has a much much lower impact strength (google the hammer test done by themodzoo.com)

- Structural integrity can be compromised by certain chemicals (alcohol, etc...), which can lead to fracturing/cracking.  In reality, acrylic is quite durable and is great for bending and running tube within a loop; however, PETG is a better alternative IMO --- the reasons really begin now

- Acrylic is not tolerant of being heated, bent, reheated; therefore, if you screw up on a bend, you pissed money away in all likelihood.

- Much tougher to bend than PETG, in that it has a higher melting/forming point and tends to flatten at the bends, which can be unsightly and make compression collars a nightmare

- ACRYLIC IS EXPENSIVE!!!  Comparitively, it is over 2x as much as PETG... possibly 3x.  You do not gain anything from the extra cost (again IMO).  Unless you inspect clear acrylic side by side, under close eye and with a light behind it, you cannot tell any difference in appearance.  If you are going with colored tubing, then the point is moot.  You don't get a better product in terms of ease of use, efficacy, risk, aesthetics.  Why pay more???

 

PETG Con's:

 

- Not as glasslike on close inspection

- There have been speculative concerns that PETG may be susceptible to water creep (evaporation through the plastic over time), that it may be susceptible to staining, that due to it's lower forming point it may malform while the system is running (from heat supposedly) and ruin your system.  I have been running my rig with PETG covering about half (I started with acrylic) for about 6 months or so, and all I can say is "so far so good".  I cannot even remember which tubing runs are PETG at times (nullifies the appearance argument).  I have observed no malformation or leaks.  I have observed less water creep (although it is possible that I had a very slow leak before)... once I bled the loop and filled once more about 2-weeks in, I have seen no drop in liquid level.  My loop is filled with the most staining of all things: RED DYE!!!! MAYHEMS RED DYE!!!!  A LOT OF IT!!!! So, my PETG must be stained, right? Nope.  Not at all.

 

PETG Pro's:

 

- Easier to work with.

- Much cheaper

- Flexibility when cold makes fitting it into tight fits a breeze: just a slight bow and then release.

 

 

I don't think that I really need to keep going.  The jury is in: PETG is the better option.  It doesn't mean that acylic is a bad option, though.

 

Regarding bending jigs:  

 

I bought a Monsoon bending jig that set me back quite a few dollars (first time doing hard tube bending), and although I find the product novel and useful in some scenarios, I always bend by hand these days.  I don't bend around things, either... I just eye it out (without concern of wasting too much money thanks to PETG).  I am actually more accurate without all of the rulers and jigs -- it's a practice thing ;) .  I would recommend trying to bend on your own first, and then if you feel overwhelmed go with the Monsoon bending kit (not Primochill).

 

-Carson


emsj86 12-02-2014 10:38 AM

Thank you. Yeh I bend copper lines all day at work (I run refrigeration lines in installs and such) and I like you use to use a imperial tubing bender which works but is time consuming and with practice I can bend copper good with my hands. (When I mean good I mean nice angles no waves)

emsj86 12-02-2014 10:40 AM

I see you used primochill petg and I think I want to go that route since I an to change dyes a lot so won't have to worry about loss of water. What fittings did you use the primochill?

DaveLT 12-02-2014 10:54 AM

Blablabla. To prove my point I threw a acrylic tube from 1m above ground and it didn't even develop a single fracture! Inspected under my microscope in case that dood doesn't get it still
This was thrown 100 times from the same height with extreme force and heated greatly with a blowtorch then thrown on the floor again and this is the result

And last but not least, this acrylic tubing only costed me 2$/m. PETG from the same shop was 10$/m
The only real downside is with an wrong diameter silicone tubing it flattens out but with the right tubing it doesn't exhibit it and IPA causes acrylic to crack (Chemical reaction)
A lower deformation point is a CON with hard tubings and water cooling.

Unicr0nhunter 12-02-2014 11:07 AM

I have been cautiously pessimistic about PETG, but it's been around and in use in enough builds for long enough now I think most of my concerns about it being hygroscopic (absorbs water) might make it more susceptible to staining or evaporation and that it's not being UV-resistant might make it become brittle or yellow/discolor over time were for not or if so they are probably very minor. I haven't seen an actual complaint or example of either being an issue.

As far as the temps go everyone that I've seen who has actually worked with both seems to agree PETG is easier to heat and bend and looking around at various stats for it's 'Softening Point', 'Heat deflection temperature', 'max safe service temperature', etc ratings for PETG I didn't see anything under 70C so I can't really see it ever being an issue in a loop's reliability. If so you have some serious problems. Heck, my glass reservoir comes with a warning that it's only rated to 50C and I'm not ever worried about my loop temps getting anywhere near that.

PETG initially was more costly than acrylic also, after seeing riesscar's comment I was surprised to see that Primochill's PETG is considerably less expensive than their acrylic (their 4x36" PETG is a couple dollars cheaper than their 4x24" acrylic), and that they offer it in a variety of colors now which they didn't last I checked. That said, I admittedly hadn't checked since Primochill first came out with their PETG and at that time it only came in clear. Even the PETG at McMaster-Carr which was ~50% more expensive than their comparable sized acrylic is now right about the same price for either. [edit] I was looking at it wrong since they have them priced differently. McMaster-Carr's PETG is almost twice as expensive as their acrylic. 3/8x1/2" PETG is $1.14 ft sold in 6' lengths (so, $6.84 per 6') and their 3/8x1/2" acrylic is $3.81 per 6' tube.

It's time I go ahead and take some PETG for a spin. I just ordered 2 of the 4x36" packages of Primochill's clear UV blue tube so whenever I get around to it I'll do my next loop with it. I need to see for myself.

riesscar 12-02-2014 12:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveLT View Post

Blablabla. To prove my point I threw a acrylic tube from 1m above ground and it didn't even develop a single fracture! Inspected under my microscope in case that dood doesn't get it still
This was thrown 100 times from the same height with extreme force and heated greatly with a blowtorch then thrown on the floor again and this is the result

And last but not least, this acrylic tubing only costed me 2$/m. PETG from the same shop was 10$/m
The only real downside is with an wrong diameter silicone tubing it flattens out but with the right tubing it doesn't exhibit it and IPA causes acrylic to crack (Chemical reaction)
A lower deformation point is a CON with hard tubings and water cooling.

Seems like an empirical test you've conducted. rolleyes.gif We get it: you don't believe that acrylic cracks. Ok, but it does. You think it's cheaper. Ok, but it isn't. As far as PETG's lower forming point, let us issue a disclaimer: "running boiling water is ill-advised."

PETG is great... so is acrylic. I've built three systems with hard tubing in the past few months, one is all acrylic, one is all PETG, and one has both. I prefer paying less and find PETG easier to work with. DaveLT is adamantly opposed to anything but acrylic, but for those who are interested in which one is preferable: I prefer PETG and all of the cons have yet to be substantiated.

-Carson

Edit: as for price, I am speaking only in reference to products sold on Watercooling sites. I cannot speak for the entirety of the plastics industry.

emsj86 12-02-2014 03:04 PM

I was going to go to
Primochill petg but what other fittings outside mosoon and primchill can I use will ek or bitspower fittings work? What brand fittings work with what brand tubing ?

riesscar 12-02-2014 04:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by emsj86 View Post

I was going to go to
Primochill petg but what other fittings outside mosoon and primchill can I use will ek or bitspower fittings work? What brand fittings work with what brand tubing ?

Not sure about EK... I know that the Bitspower hardline fittings are wider than the 12mm OD Primochill PETG & acrylic, as well as the monsoon 12mm acrylic tubing. If you are set on PETG from Primochill, I know that it will fit all of Primochill and Monsoon's hardline compression fittings. I would also add that I find the Monsoon fittings to be superior to Primochill's, although I've not yet tried their glue-locking style of fitting. Shoot an email over to PPCS or Primochill and ask... you'll be surprised how promptly they answer!

-Carson

emsj86 12-02-2014 07:20 PM

Yea I just haven't seen any 90 fittings but I guess I could get a male to female 1/4 90 or 45 of whatever brand or color matching

riesscar 12-02-2014 08:19 PM

Quote:
 Yea I just haven't seen any 90 fittings but I guess I could get a male to female 1/4 90 or 45 of whatever brand or color matching

 

Are you looking for 90 degree fittings because of a sharp bend that might not be feasible bending the tubing, or do you plan to build the rig with adapters and straight, hard tubing?  I assume that you intend to bend the tube given your inquiry about jigs.  If so, you'll have to just get a 90 degree adapter and pair it up with a hard tube compression fitting.  You are not going to find triple rotary hard tube compression fittings and the like, because one of main advantages of doing a hard tubing rig is ridding oneself of the need for them.

 

Having said that, I know that in practice you just are gonna need an angled adapter at times... either out of necessity or convenience.  I again am going to suggest you take a look at Monsoons line of fittings for hard tubing.  In addition to an excellent variety of colors and aesthetic designs, they make 90, 45 and 60 (I think) adapters which are designed to blend seamlessly with their actual compression fittings.  Here is an example:  Adapter - http://www.performance-pcs.com/monsoon-45-rotary-angle-fitting-1-2-green.html ---------   along with matching fitting - http://www.performance-pcs.com/monsoon-free-center-hardline-compression-fittings-3-8-x-1-2-green.html

 

I looked at the EK fittings, and I think that they will work with Primochill's PETG, but you should inquire to be sure.

 

-Carson


emsj86 12-02-2014 09:22 PM

Thank you. Now do I ha e to glue the monsoon fittings. Maybe a dumb question but I heard some people say that before. Of so I do t want to glue for the fact whe. I upgrade my gpu or cpu I want to be able to remove it easly. The reason I asked about 90s is bc one or two bends will be very sharp and short and worried I will maybe not all the way but somewhat flatten when bending.

riesscar 12-03-2014 06:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by emsj86 View Post

Thank you. Now do I ha e to glue the monsoon fittings. Maybe a dumb question but I heard some people say that before. Of so I do t want to glue for the fact whe. I upgrade my gpu or cpu I want to be able to remove it easly. The reason I asked about 90s is bc one or two bends will be very sharp and short and worried I will maybe not all the way but somewhat flatten when bending.

Yes, I believe that the free center hardline fittings are the ones that use an adhesive. I have never used the free center type, but I am fond of Monsoon's other hardline compression fittings. I recommend them over Primochill for sure. If this were flexible tubing advice, I would advise Bitspower, as I think it is pretty much agreed they are the gold standard; however, due to their rigid Compressiin fittings being incompatibility w the tubing I use, I haven't tried them.

Check out this video on the different choices on rigid compression fittings and how each works:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=noBAB2FC9IA

-Carson

Vintage 02-09-2015 05:12 PM

Very interesting topic..... curious myself as to the merits of PETG. I have to say though, I know you are not supposed to leave water bottles in your car on a hot day as it leeches chemicals into the water. I would imagine its possible for this to happen under normal conditions in a WC loop. Just a thought.

riesscar 02-09-2015 05:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vintage View Post

Very interesting topic..... curious myself as to the merits of PETG. I have to say though, I know you are not supposed to leave water bottles in your car on a hot day as it leeches chemicals into the water. I would imagine its possible for this to happen under normal conditions in a WC loop. Just a thought.

That is an interesting point... what chemicals might it leech, though? They are packaging a consumable product in it, after all.

I recently checked the ph of my coolant to see if more biocide was in order, and everything was in good shape; however, this does not mean that chemicals are not leeching.

Does anyone with knowledge of plastics have any insight on this?

Thanks,

Carson

Jakusonfire 02-09-2015 06:14 PM

I honestly don't believe there are major differences between the tube types in real life. I'm sure the grade they use would eliminate any leaching or the other proposed problems with PETG, I just don't believe it is better either.

The only thing that worries me is the lower temp and pressure resistance. In an emergency both of those things are very possible in a water loop. I've seen soft tube compression fittings slide off because temps got too high. I've seen pumps pop from their housings because pressure got so high. Because of that I don't want the lower temp and pressure deforming tube.
Outside of freak high temp and pressure conditions or using the inside of the system to test out that new gothic pointed mace you picked up for GOT Cos play ... No real differences.

To me it just seems a bit like the smaller water cooling companies trying to find a point of differentiation from the big boys Bitspower and EK. Even if isn't that realistic.

loffeleguan 02-11-2015 05:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by riesscar View Post

Not sure about EK... I know that the Bitspower hardline fittings are wider than the 12mm OD Primochill PETG & acrylic, as well as the monsoon 12mm acrylic tubing. If you are set on PETG from Primochill, I know that it will fit all of Primochill and Monsoon's hardline compression fittings. I would also add that I find the Monsoon fittings to be superior to Primochill's, although I've not yet tried their glue-locking style of fitting. Shoot an email over to PPCS or Primochill and ask... you'll be surprised how promptly they answer!

-Carson
EK and Bitspower uses the metric system for measurements. So their tubing for example is 10mm ID and 12mm OD. Primochill and Monsoon uses inches, 3/8" ID and 1/2" OD (9,525mm and 12,7mm). Hope this helps smile.gif

Retrosmith 02-11-2015 09:10 PM

Personally, I prefer the PETG simply for cost and ease of use. I've found it much more forgiving in the bending process. It takes some practice, even if you're familiar wit acrylic bending since the softening point is lower, but once I got the hang of it the PETG tube was just easier to use.

One thing I don't like about it is that you can't use a reamer to chamfer the ends like you can acrylic. My reamer just digs into it and tears it up, I have to use sandpaper.


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:32 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.