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-   -   [Techpowerup] NVIDIA DLSS and its Surprising Resolution Limitations (https://www.overclock.net/forum/225-hardware-news/1720640-techpowerup-nvidia-dlss-its-surprising-resolution-limitations.html)

ILoveHighDPI 02-14-2019 05:16 PM

[Techpowerup] NVIDIA DLSS and its Surprising Resolution Limitations
 
https://www.techpowerup.com/252550/n...on-limitations

Quote:

Representatives for the company told us that DLSS is most effective when the GPU is at maximum work load, such that if a GPU is not being challenged enough, DLSS is not going to be made available.
This is the final nail in the coffin.
My primary complaint with DLSS is that the existence of the Tenser Cores on a chip where you are not going to be using Ray Tracing is fundamentally wasteful, that Silicon Area should just be used for more CUDA cores and Nvidia needs to have a high end GTX card available.
Secondly we have seen that basic up-scaling gives almost exactly the same benefits as DLSS, but does so without any need for extra hardware: https://www.techspot.com/article/1712-nvidia-dlss/

Still the idea of DLSS has been lucrative, a 50% boost to framerate with only a small cost to image quality. Many people would have gladly taken that compromise to reach higher framerates...

Only today we find out that DLSS is itself a bottleneck to reaching higher framerates.

WannaBeOCer 02-14-2019 05:40 PM

Those Tensor cores are there for creative developers not just DLSS. They finally have the hardware they just have to put it to use.

umeng2002 02-14-2019 06:02 PM

I still don't know why nVidia can't train with every single game in existence and apply DLSS for everything. That theory that nVidia doesn't want the tensor cores to be the bottleneck makes sense. What's the point of using it when a rendered frame is delayed waiting for the tensor cores to DLSS-it-up. That said, why didn't nVidia make a card where that limitation even has a realistic chance of happening?

Maybe nVidia should have just included it in their "ray-tracing" package and not separated the technology at all.

Early adopter quirks to say the least... pay a premium price for beta features.

tpi2007 02-14-2019 06:51 PM

This has all the hallmarks of a niche solution that will be dropped in a few years. It sounds like SLI actually, it needs profiles provided by Nvidia to work, it doesn't support all games and even in the ones that are supported, your mileage may vary. In this case you may not be able to enable it at all depending on the specific RTX card you're using and the resolution you want to play at.

I still want to see the games that support 4K DLSS tested at 1800p + TAA + Upscaling for comparison. Add that in and DLSS becomes even more of a niche feature. 1800p + TAA + Upscaling is a much more universal solution than DLSS will ever be. And you certainly don't need profiles downloaded through GFE to make it work.

The Tensor cores' main job is as a ray tracing denoiser, DLSS is just a way for Nvidia to get more people to register on GFE with their e-mail, but considering the limited horsepower of the combined RT + Tensor solution I wonder if all that die space was used by raster cores if the game devs couldn't have made the ray tracing enabled games look equally good by having more horsepower dedicated to reflections, even when it means duplicating renderings, but it still means that it's general raster hardware doing it, meaning that it can be used elsewhere on the game when needed, it's much more versatile. And from what we are seeing with the new Metro game, making things more realistic doesn't always work in a way that makes a game better gameplay-wise.

Also, they could use Voxel Global Illumination (VXGI) to achieve some of the effects, that is a tech that Nvidia introduced with Maxwell in 2014, so we've got three Nvidia consumer archs capable of doing it:


kingduqc 02-14-2019 07:04 PM

They speculate about how the tensor cores are too slow to run on each frame if the framerate is high, but DLSS is marketed as a fast AA (SS) solution. If that's true DLSS's goal and it's implementation contradict itself. It's quite a blunder considering it also look like garbage. Those RTX cards are an erxpensive trainwreck and their main features are pretty overwhelming.

WannaBeOCer 02-14-2019 07:23 PM

TPUs are scary and I can't wait until they are properly used in games.

https://github.com/NVlabs/stylegan

umeng2002 02-14-2019 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tpi2007 (Post 27853884)
This has all the hallmarks of a niche solution that will be dropped in a few years. It sounds like SLI actually, it needs profiles provided by Nvidia to work, it doesn't support all games and even in the ones that are supported, your mileage may vary. In this case you may not be able to enable it at all depending on the specific RTX card you're using and the resolution you want to play at.

I still want to see the games that support 4K DLSS tested at 1800p + TAA + Upscaling for comparison. Add that in and DLSS becomes even more of a niche feature. 1800p + TAA + Upscaling is a much more universal solution than DLSS will ever be. And you certainly don't need profiles downloaded through GFE to make it work.

The Tensor cores' main job is as a ray tracing denoiser, DLSS is just a way for Nvidia to get more people to register on GFE with their e-mail, but considering the limited horsepower of the combined RT + Tensor solution I wonder if all that die space was used by raster cores if the game devs couldn't have made the ray tracing enabled games look equally good by having more horsepower dedicated to reflections, even when it means duplicating renderings, but it still means that it's general raster hardware doing it, meaning that it can be used elsewhere on the game when needed, it's much more versatile. And from what we are seeing with the new Metro game, making things more realistic doesn't always work in a way that makes a game better gameplay-wise.

Also, they could use Voxel Global Illumination (VXGI) to achieve some of the effects, that is a tech that Nvidia introduced with Maxwell in 2014, so we've got three Nvidia consumer archs capable of doing it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E1oVl2d01Q

Did I miss something? Where has it been stated that you need GFE for DLSS to work?

tpi2007 02-14-2019 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by umeng2002 (Post 27853938)
Did I miss something? Where has it been stated that you need GFE for DLSS to work?



https://techreport.com/review/34095/...architecture/3
Quote:

DLSS is just one product of what Nvidia calls the Neural Graphics Framework, or NGX. NGX provides an API to game developers that exposes several AI models, or "neural services," to game engines for use on client PCs. Nvidia pre-trains NGX models in its own data centers and provides them to end users as "neural services" by way of GeForce Experience.

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews...ed,5801-5.html
Quote:

While we hoped Nvidia's GeForce Experience (GFE) software wouldn't be a requisite of DLSS, we suspected it probably would be. Sure enough, the company confirmed that the features of NGX are tightly woven into GFE. If the software detects a Turing-based GPU, it downloads a package called NGX Core, which determines if games/apps are relevant to NGX. When there's a match, NGX Core retrieves any associated deep neural networks for later use.

https://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graphi...Tracing-and-DL
Quote:

This neural network model is then distributed via GeForce Experience to end users who have a GPU with tensor cores and have the given game installed. This distribution model is vital as it allows NVIDIA to silently update the model in the background as they come up with improvements as they get more experience and come up with better techniques.

Kpjoslee 02-14-2019 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingduqc (Post 27853892)
They speculate about how the tensor cores are too slow to run on each frame if the framerate is high, but DLSS is marketed as a fast AA (SS) solution. If that's true DLSS's goal and it's implementation contradict itself. It's quite a blunder considering it also look like garbage. Those RTX cards are an erxpensive trainwreck and their main features are pretty overwhelming.

That would defeat the purpose of DLSS, since its purpose is to improve the performance on game on high resolution while minimizing the loss of quality vs native resolution. If you are already running high framerate on native resolution, you wouldn't need DLSS.

umeng2002 02-14-2019 08:42 PM

That's odd since it works in BFV for me without GFE installed.


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