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tpi2007 03-12-2019 07:29 AM

[Ars] Richard Garfield leaves Valve, puts Artifact’s future in question
 
2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Richard Garfield, the legendary game designer behind Magic: The Gathering, says he has been laid off from Valve as part of a recent modest downsizing effort at the company. The move comes as Artifact, Valve's Dota 2-based card game which Garfield worked on closely, struggles to find a continuing audience.

"We weren't surprised by the layoff considering how rocky the launch was," Garfield told Artifact-focused site Artibuff. "The team was enthusiastic about the game and were confident that they had a good product, but it became clear it wasn't going to be easy to get the game to where we wanted it."
Quote:

After launching with tens of thousands of simultaneous players in November, though, Artifact quickly declined in popularity, to the point that only about 500 players have been online at any time in the last week, according to stats collected by SteamDB.
Source.


Hey, Gabe, there were more people playing Half-Life or Half-Life 2 than Artifact last week and yesterday it got worse. Wake up and smell the ashes.

https://steamdb.info/graph/?compare=...380,420,583950


Attachment 258658

Attachment 258656

Defoler 03-12-2019 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tpi2007 (Post 27888408)
Wake up and smell the ashes.

Well isn't that why he got fired with a few other people? Gabe (or someone high up) decided that it better to leave it as is and drop future development?
They did smell the ash, and brought a fan to clear it out.

keikei 03-12-2019 08:16 AM

Is Artifact that bad? Possibly game saturation?

tpi2007 03-12-2019 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Defoler (Post 27888462)
Well isn't that why he got fired with a few other people? Gabe (or someone high up) decided that it better to leave it as is and drop future development?
They did smell the ash, and brought a fan to clear it out.


You missed the reference.

iamjanco 03-12-2019 09:11 AM

On the plus side, now they've got more room for HL3 dev and illustrator workstations.

Mand12 03-12-2019 09:14 AM

Artifact's future hasn't been in question since about a week after its launch.

It has none.

EniGma1987 03-12-2019 09:56 AM

Really seems like these card games had a momentary blip in popularity that quickly died. No surprise to me that the game is doing bad, Valve was pretty late to the party.

epic1337 03-12-2019 09:58 AM

Artifact could've been a mini-game under DOTA2's arcade tbh, they didn't really need something like this.

ku4eto 03-12-2019 11:03 AM

Maybe if it was free to play game, it wouldnt have such outcome.

nonametoclaim 03-12-2019 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ku4eto (Post 27888700)
Maybe if it was free to play game, it wouldnt have such outcome.

i have to agree with you there. Fort Night (as much as i hate it) has proven that you dont have to sell a game for it to be profitable.

JackCY 03-12-2019 03:16 PM

It's not a game people want to play.

Magic: The Gathering... they made sort of a one off rubbish I wouldn't play either and that saturated that market. Making more and more variants under different name won't magically bring more customers.

Valve had Half-Life and then Steam, the rest... what rest... not worth mentioning really. It was either a mod or bought from elsewhere.
Valve will sit on Steam until they keel over. All their explorations into AR, VR, ... some games no one wants to play... just a money dump.
HL3 that people want they do not want to make because they would need a damn good writer and team to build it, neither of which they have anymore.

Omega X 03-12-2019 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ku4eto (Post 27888700)
Maybe if it was free to play game, it wouldnt have such outcome.


^^^This.


The game had a load of defenders claiming that the game would do fine with a pay to play model. Now we have proof that it didn't.

skupples 03-13-2019 10:42 AM

better off playing OG MTG with their newest release than any other card game, Gwent included ;)

oxidized 03-13-2019 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EniGma1987 (Post 27888614)
Really seems like these card games had a momentary blip in popularity that quickly died. No surprise to me that the game is doing bad, Valve was pretty late to the party.

Hearthstone is very popular even now, it's actually in the top 10 even right now. It's the game that matters, and what is its target audience, TCGs in general were never that popular, in videogames, old magic the gathering games did very poorly, because they required much time and patience to get to actually know the game, hearthstone is much different from that, it's a very simple, basic game, and that's why people play it much much more than magic the gathering arena, or artifact or anything else.

ku4eto 03-14-2019 03:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oxidized (Post 27890140)
Hearthstone is very popular even now, it's actually in the top 10 even right now. It's the game that matters, and what is its target audience, TCGs in general were never that popular, in videogames, old magic the gathering games did very poorly, because they required much time and patience to get to actually know the game, hearthstone is much different from that, it's a very simple, basic game, and that's why people play it much much more than magic the gathering arena, or artifact or anything else.

Because, unlike WoW, Blizzard listens the Hearthstone community.

UltraMega 03-14-2019 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackCY (Post 27889006)
It's not a game people want to play.

Magic: The Gathering... they made sort of a one off rubbish I wouldn't play either and that saturated that market. Making more and more variants under different name won't magically bring more customers.

Valve had Half-Life and then Steam, the rest... what rest... not worth mentioning really. It was either a mod or bought from elsewhere.
Valve will sit on Steam until they keel over. All their explorations into AR, VR, ... some games no one wants to play... just a money dump.
HL3 that people want they do not want to make because they would need a damn good writer and team to build it, neither of which they have anymore.

Your logic is sound but you're overlooking one thing. Valve has outsourced Half Life games to other devs several times before, and they could definitely do it again with Half Life 3 if they wanted to.

I honestly believe the only reason we have not and probably will not get Half Life 3 is because GabeN is a terrible CEO. Valve got lucky with Steam. People hated it when it became tied to Half Life 2 and Counter Strike but that hate slowly morphed into appriciation for no longer having to deal with a pile of CDs and DVDs to play games, and has since enjoyed the profits that come with being the first widely used digital store for PC games. People have come to love steam so much that Valve gets this totally undeserved reputation as the holy grail of PC gaming when infact all they really are is a game dev that couldn't adapt to stay relavent in an age where loading screens every couple of hallways is no longer acceptable, when they had one of the biggest IP franchises available to them, and could not even figure out how to capitalize on it. GabeN probably could not tie down his ambitions for Hlaf Life 3 into a realistic development plan and burned out all of Valve's actual talent.


I wish Valve would just admit all they are is a digital store going forward, or license out they're IPs to devs that can actually manage to make games. GabeN to me is a salty old fart who got mad at the gaming community for saying he can't count to 3 too many times, and now he feels no commitment to the community and fans that made him and his company rich. None of the other big names in gaming have completely aboadon their projects when fans universally wanted it and finances were not an issue, at least as far as I know. Just thinking about that scenario seems crazy. The fact that Valve could not even get Half Life 3 off the ground with all the resources they have avilable to them is a testiment to just how terribly a company can be managed. Everything going for them and they still failed due to their own arrogance, and the complete lack of any pressure to deliver with Steam paying all of the bills.

ToTheSun! 03-14-2019 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UltraMega (Post 27891114)
GabeN to me is a salty old fart who got mad at the gaming community

You seem pretty salty yourself about the popularity, that you view as unmerited, of someone of which you hold such a passionately negative view.

The GabeN meme, that alludes to his celebrity, is based mostly on his work on Steam, rather than his contribution to the HL franchise; though, the latter is also worthy of praise, I believe, for bringing a successful template of storytelling and gameplay mechanics to the industry.

It seems to me his validity as a player in the market, and also as a representative of the company Valve, can be backed solely by his work on the most successful online game library (among other things that it is, something that a lot of people like to ignore when criticizing it).

To use Valve's failure to bring closure to the Freeman epopee, one of their many works, as the basis of smearing his professional persona is a little weird.

I don't think they'd ever "outsource" one of the chapters in the main story, especially the last one. They've only done that for spin-offs, whose canonical status is largely unimportant to the main plot. And it's not like they'd relinquish narration control altogether.

I see the absence of HL3 as a mystery, more so than the result of the direction from an arrogant, failing, salty old fart.

They don't have to admit anything; their actions speak for themselves. They're Steam first, developer second, because that's what can easily and unmistakably be seen. People simply romanticized the whole thing and got frustrated when the result was different. Whether they're trying to appease themselves or the shareholders is a more relevant question.

oxidized 03-14-2019 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ku4eto (Post 27891104)
Because, unlike WoW, Blizzard listens the Hearthstone community.

It's not that, it's only that hearthstone was the first and it's much more accessible to the average player and to the casual player.

UltraMega 03-15-2019 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToTheSun! (Post 27891194)
You seem pretty salty yourself about the popularity, that you view as unmerited, of someone of which you hold such a passionately negative view.

The GabeN meme, that alludes to his celebrity, is based mostly on his work on Steam, rather than his contribution to the HL franchise; though, the latter is also worthy of praise, I believe, for bringing a successful template of storytelling and gameplay mechanics to the industry.

It seems to me his validity as a player in the market, and also as a representative of the company Valve, can be backed solely by his work on the most successful online game library (among other things that it is, something that a lot of people like to ignore when criticizing it).

To use Valve's failure to bring closure to the Freeman epopee, one of their many works, as the basis of smearing his professional persona is a little weird.

I don't think they'd ever "outsource" one of the chapters in the main story, especially the last one. They've only done that for spin-offs, whose canonical status is largely unimportant to the main plot. And it's not like they'd relinquish narration control altogether.

I see the absence of HL3 as a mystery, more so than the result of the direction from an arrogant, failing, salty old fart.

They don't have to admit anything; their actions speak for themselves. They're Steam first, developer second, because that's what can easily and unmistakably be seen. People simply romanticized the whole thing and got frustrated when the result was different. Whether they're trying to appease themselves or the shareholders is a more relevant question.

Oh it's you again.

Obviously my comment was highly sarcastic but the sentiment of it really isn't. There's nothing salty about being dissappointed in Valve for ditching game development completely, aside from a few very simple games that are riddle with micro transactions and gambling. Valve got lucky with the timing of steam, that they're only real claim to fame. Without steam, they would likely not even be in business today. If a different digital store had beat steam to the punch, steam would be the annoying extra program everyone hates on. I'm not going to pretend a company that made a few smart decision and got lucky on top of that, but has otherwise spent most of its life doing very little (especially considering their massive resources) is a good business. Valve survives because of steam. Steam exist because it was first. It's that simple.


Portal 2 was their last big game and it came out in 2011.

Valve is like a good friend that fell off the wagon and is just looking for the next fix in the form of hats and skins for gambling, while keeping people distracted from their addiction with random side projects.

ToTheSun! 03-15-2019 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UltraMega (Post 27892466)
Oh it's you again.

Hello.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UltraMega (Post 27892466)
Valve got lucky with the timing of steam, that they're only real claim to fame.

So, they're just like every single company in every single industry that pioneered something because of their ingenuity and sense of opportunity? Cool. I guess you really do make your own luck.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UltraMega (Post 27892466)
Valve is like a good friend that fell off the wagon

And that's EXACTLY the problem, one that I described in my previous post. They've never been anyone's friend. You romanticized the whole thing and now you're frustrated.

tpi2007 03-15-2019 06:08 AM

2 Attachment(s)
I hadn't been to the game's page in a while. Wow.

19% positive recent reviews; 49% positive overall.


Attachment 259340
Attachment 259342


Ever since they released Dota 2 in July of 2013, something changed. The vetting of quality games on the store started to go away, they lost focus with the Steam machines initiative and the controller and VR, having released a collection of VR demos / experiments for free in 2016 ("The Lab"). And that's it for the recent years until the Artifact disaster. I hope that they realized by now that VR isn't going anywhere anytime soon, not until hardware is meaningfully more powerful so that you can render both photo-realistic graphics and in high fps and also not until VR goggles are the size and weight of a pair of sunglasses.

They need to go back to making games and telling good stories. They have to realize that making tech statements with games isn't all that they have achieved and that telling a good story with good gameplay is worth it on its own. Also, diversifying game genres is good, but they seem too fixated on it ever since 2007's Orange Box, and the two reasons above combined are most probably the reason why they never finished Half-Life 2's episodic content.

UltraMega 03-15-2019 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToTheSun! (Post 27892484)
Hello.


So, they're just like every single company in every single industry that pioneered something because of their ingenuity and sense of opportunity? Cool. I guess you really do make your own luck.


And that's EXACTLY the problem, one that I described in my previous post. They've never been anyone's friend. You romanticized the whole thing and now you're frustrated.

They tied a digital store to their game before anyone else did, and made it mandatory for all their games. I would not call that "pioneering", but credit where it's due. Steam is a good program, not saying it's not, but it's only so widely used because it was first. You want to give Valve a ton of credit as if they cured cancer or something, thats your purgative. They made a good business more some 15 years or so ago and have not been able to do much with all their money and IPs since. It's sad to see a once well liked game dev turn into nothing more than the maintenance team for a digital store.


And too your weak counter about my metaphone "Valve is like a good friend that feel off the wagon and is looking for a fix", since the metaphore clearly went way over your heard, I'll restate it more literally.


Valve is (literally) a game former game developer that used to be highly acclaimed and beloved by fans. Valve build 2-3 very strong story based IP's that fan's were very happy about and eagerly awaited the next promised entried for. Once Valve got exuberently rich off steam, they were no longer able to produce any games despite seemingly having everything going well for them. This can mean only one thing, poor leadership.


Now back to metaphors; it's like hearing a female super model that's rich and famous complain that it's hard to find guys to date. It's not a valid complaint considering the context of reality, and thus we roll our eyes at Valve.


It's not a mystery what happened with Half Life 3, there is a lot of info about what happened now. It saw at least 3 highly ambitious revisions that all got canned because GabeN could not realisitically hone in the ambitions for the game, and he burned out his development team. Many of them left Valve after the third Half Life 3 revision got canned, and there was likely never a 4th because of that.



Oh but Valve made Steam and Steam is the only digital store (that stuck up PC gamer will ever accept) so praise be to Valve and glory unto GabeN!

ToTheSun! 03-15-2019 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UltraMega (Post 27893592)
They tied a digital store to their game before anyone else did, and made it mandatory for all their games. I would not call that "pioneering", but credit where it's due. Steam is a good program, not saying it's not, but it's only so widely used because it was first. You want to give Valve a ton of credit as if they cured cancer or something, thats your purgative. They made a good business more some 15 years or so ago and have not been able to do much with all their money and IPs since. It's sad to see a once well liked game dev turn into nothing more than the maintenance team for a digital store.


And too your weak counter about my metaphone "Valve is like a good friend that feel off the wagon and is looking for a fix", since the metaphore clearly went way over your heard, I'll restate it more literally.


Valve is (literally) a game former game developer that used to be highly acclaimed and beloved by fans. Valve build 2-3 very strong story based IP's that fan's were very happy about and eagerly awaited the next promised entried for. Once Valve got exuberently rich off steam, they were no longer able to produce any games despite seemingly having everything going well for them. This can mean only one thing, poor leadership.


Now back to metaphors; it's like hearing a female super model that's rich and famous complain that it's hard to find guys to date. It's not a valid complaint considering the context of reality, and thus we roll our eyes at Valve.


It's not a mystery what happened with Half Life 3, there is a lot of info about what happened now. It saw at least 3 highly ambitious revisions that all got canned because GabeN could not realisitically hone in the ambitions for the game, and he burned out his development team. Many of them left Valve after the third Half Life 3 revision got canned, and there was likely never a 4th because of that.



Oh but Valve made Steam and Steam is the only digital store (that stuck up PC gamer will ever accept) so praise be to Valve and glory unto GabeN!

Well, I still think your analogies are really bad, but, sure, fair point. I don't stop and think much of what HL3 could have been or how I used to love Valve so much, so I'm not sure I can relate very much. They're a company to me; if they don't want to bring closure to one of the most well reviewed franchises, so be it. I have other games to play.

UltraMega 03-18-2019 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToTheSun! (Post 27893792)
Well, I still think your analogies are really bad, but, sure, fair point. I don't stop and think much of what HL3 could have been or how I used to love Valve so much, so I'm not sure I can relate very much. They're a company to me; if they don't want to bring closure to one of the most well reviewed franchises, so be it. I have other games to play.

I've never been a big fan of Valve, but I've certainly seen them in a much more positive light just thinking of them as a company. I don't get into the fan faire of it, and if you were actually hearing what I'm saying you might get that.


What I have said repeatedly, its that it's shameful for a company to abandon the popular projects that made them successful just to focus on easy money, despite their fans. yea Steam is more profitable than any one game would have been, but its not like they couldn't do both. Half Life 3, Portal 3, Team Fortress 3... any of the projects that mode them popular being continued would be a sign that they care about more than easy money. I see no such signs from them and therefore, to me, they are a lazy company that stopped doing anything hard as soon as they didn't have to, even though any games they did would have added to their profits.


If/when a digital store that competes with steam even starts to reach the same level of acceptance as Steam, Valve will have very little to fall back on. No business should put all their eggs in one basket.

Laysson 03-18-2019 12:48 AM

They need to go F2P now or die forever.

WindInSummer 03-18-2019 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UltraMega (Post 27892466)
Oh it's you again.
Portal 2 was their last big game and it came out in 2011.

Valve is like a good friend that fell off the wagon and is just looking for the next fix in the form of hats and skins for gambling, while keeping people distracted from their addiction with random side projects.

I just dont get why you spin everything as that Valve is supposed to do x or y and that anything is a failure.
They were this dev. They made a game, it got popular. They followed up. Games got bigger in that time. They did Portal which was sorta kewl. And that is that. Meanwhile Steam had happened. To me it seems natural this is how it went.

If you look at Halflife and Valve it is a lot of happy accidents (CS and mods etc.). And to me Half-life has always been overhyped. It is like Quake 2 with some crappy voice lines from scientists and grunts with a really anticlimactic ending (I can also admit I did not finish the game and used cheat codes to experience parts of it :D that is how unhooked I was on HL but I have always been like that with games expecting what we are only starting to get now, back then as far this type of game is concerned).

It is not super easy to follow up on, for any dev. For all we know they have bided their time to do the hype justice as games grew past them. I am pretty sure they could have done something passable quickly on top of HL2 but for a lot of people it'd most likely been underwhelming. Same if they rushed it in the period after that, then they'd bomb for sure. I feel like you are jumping the gun a bit if you think about it a bit more. They need to do some kinda That-Lost-Guy-Whatever his name is Abrams ? treatment on Half-life and reinvent it. It is not easy and maybe they dont wanna piss on it in the first place, and would rather not do anything at all.

UltraMega 03-18-2019 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WindInSummer (Post 27896450)
I just dont get why you spin everything as that Valve is supposed to do x or y and that anything is a failure.
They were this dev. They made a game, it got popular. They followed up. Games got bigger in that time. They did Portal which was sorta kewl. And that is that. Meanwhile Steam had happened. To me it seems natural this is how it went.

If you look at Halflife and Valve it is a lot of happy accidents (CS and mods etc.). And to me Half-life has always been overhyped. It is like Quake 2 with some crappy voice lines from scientists and grunts with a really anticlimactic ending (I can also admit I did not finish the game and used cheat codes to experience parts of it :D that is how unhooked I was on HL but I have always been like that with games expecting what we are only starting to get now, back then as far this type of game is concerned).

It is not super easy to follow up on, for any dev. For all we know they have bided their time to do the hype justice as games grew past them. I am pretty sure they could have done something passable quickly on top of HL2 but for a lot of people it'd most likely been underwhelming. Same if they rushed it in the period after that, then they'd bomb for sure. I feel like you are jumping the gun a bit if you think about it a bit more. They need to do some kinda That-Lost-Guy-Whatever his name is Abrams ? treatment on Half-life and reinvent it. It is not easy and maybe they dont wanna piss on it in the first place, and would rather not do anything at all.

I have a really hard time understanding how a dev who had the actual halo killer in their pocket decided to just give up on their intellectual properties. It is, perhaps, the biggest missed opportunity in gaming history. I blame Valve for all the sales they missed out on for not producing a game that would have sold like hot cakes if only the plot had carried it forward. If you guys want to keep pretending HL3 was just a small miss on Valves part, fine. Yes it's never going to be the make or break point for them but it does signify their descension into microtransaction greed. They gave up on the best gaming IPs available to become the company that rests on their loreals.


Is it really such a big argument that I am disappointed in Valve for resting on their Steam money and ditching all of their gaming franchises? Like really? I dont feel like I'm coming out of left field here. Stop brown nosing Valve.

white owl 03-18-2019 04:06 AM

Has Valve ever made a 3rd anything? Portal, Half Life, Left4Dead,Team Fortress...probably missing some but they all stop at 2.

UltraMega 03-18-2019 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by white owl (Post 27896502)
Has Valve ever made a 3rd anything? Portal, Half Life, Left4Dead,Team Fortress...probably missing some but they all stop at 2.

Is this an argument?

tpi2007 03-18-2019 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by white owl (Post 27896502)
Has Valve ever made a 3rd anything? Portal, Half Life, Left4Dead,Team Fortress...probably missing some but they all stop at 2.


Ricochet, Day of Defeat and Alien Swarm stopped at 1.

tpi2007 03-18-2019 01:11 PM

Video recap:


WindInSummer 03-18-2019 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UltraMega (Post 27896486)
Is it really such a big argument that I am disappointed in Valve for resting on their Steam money and ditching all of their gaming franchises? Like really? I dont feel like I'm coming out of left field here. Stop brown nosing Valve.

I get you also say a lot of stuff in jest or for effect.
Well I actually dont have any idea about actualities. That inside knowledge about HL3 were news to me. For me it just makes sense if you have a small (compared to games nowadays) studio and at the same time some of the leading people start up a huge digital distribution service, maybe the studio and game development is put on the backburner or becomes secondary or would even be abolished. And it is easy to say "just outsource" or create a big studio (I could be wrong but I am guessing they had competent people but nothing scalewise like big current studios, as time ticked away and the landscape changed). Do you know the economy and risks involved? I dont, there is no saying they might need to open a lot of doors to "not rest on their Steam money" as you say.

To me Valve have done a lot of things very well and I think it has a lot to do with management and leadership in the company. CS:GO (which I know intimately, every patch note up to 3-4 years ago, it is managed by very thoughtful people), DOTA 2, minor but important L4D, Garrys mod, and TF2. If I had kids I would be happy those games existed (in addition to Minecraft and in fact Fortnite, which reminds me a lot of TF2 in many ways). I dont care for any of those latter games at the same time, personally. But I like that they are polar opposites of low brow tude culture like CoD and such crap, and colorful and creative, or good co-op (in L4D).

So you can dwell on what they have done wrong or consider they have governed many things very well, and that's precious.

Look at 2K and Rockstar Games and how they have handled GTA Online (which is the governing side of things and how you respect your playerbase how you directly handle things), and I think objectively RDR2 is kinda ****e in a lot of ways and not reaching its potential. It is not easy to make games.

I have a hunch people that actually know, would agree, but maybe as in what you are adressing, there is stagnation and some careful reviewing and renewal might be in order without throwing out the baby with the bathwater. And some opining here is making the case that everything is cynical and they made big catastrophy, or what it sounds like. I dont think they ditched all of their gaming franchises in the first place. Following up singleplayer games is a bit different as well.

And I mean also with this cardgame. They involve the frickin' creator of MTG. They are mainly governing games and times have changed so they dont churn out those main titles anymore. It really makes sense for them to try something like that, there is potential for mobile use (I dont like "mobile gaming" but lets face it, everyone is using mobile devices today, tablets and phones. No more no less.).


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