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-   -   Proper 9900k LLC level? (https://www.overclock.net/forum/5-intel-cpus/1732930-proper-9900k-llc-level.html)

Melodist 09-08-2019 08:56 AM

Proper 9900k LLC level?
 
Hello there again,

I'm trying to figure out what the most applicable LLC for my 5 GHz OC on a Gigabyte Z390 Designare is and all of the following result in 1.2 V vram vout stable AVX operation:

LLC Extreme, 5 GHz with 1.24 VCore at 1.2 Volts VRM VOUT

LLC Turbo, 5 GHz with 1.28 VCore at 1.2 Volts VRM VOUT

LLC High, 5 GHz with 1.335 VCore at 1.2 Volts VRM VOUT

Which one would you recommend in terms of CPU durability?

LLC Medium is not an option because in order to run 1.2 Volts VRM VOUT, I'd have to put in something like above 1.35 I guess.

Also, the VROUT voltage is actually hitting the CPU right? Not the VCore number?

Falkentyne 09-08-2019 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melodist (Post 28119498)
Hello there again,

I'm trying to figure out what the most applicable LLC for my 5 GHz OC on a Gigabyte Z390 Designare is and all of the following result in 1.2 V vram vout stable AVX operation:

LLC Extreme, 5 GHz with 1.24 VCore at 1.2 Volts VRM VOUT

LLC Turbo, 5 GHz with 1.28 VCore at 1.2 Volts VRM VOUT

LLC High, 5 GHz with 1.335 VCore at 1.2 Volts VRM VOUT

Which one would you recommend in terms of CPU durability?

LLC Medium is not an option because in order to run 1.2 Volts VRM VOUT, I'd have to put in something like above 1.35 I guess.

Also, the VROUT voltage is actually hitting the CPU right? Not the VCore number?

LLC High would give you the most stability (less LLC improves transients). The more LLC, the higher your minimum stable voltage has to be if you are borderline because of dips.
https://www.overclock.net/forum/6-in...l#post28022104

inedenimadam 09-08-2019 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melodist (Post 28119498)
Hello there again,

I'm trying to figure out what the most applicable LLC for my 5 GHz OC on a Gigabyte Z390 Designare is and all of the following result in 1.2 V vram vout stable AVX operation:

LLC Extreme, 5 GHz with 1.24 VCore at 1.2 Volts VRM VOUT

LLC Turbo, 5 GHz with 1.28 VCore at 1.2 Volts VRM VOUT

LLC High, 5 GHz with 1.335 VCore at 1.2 Volts VRM VOUT

Which one would you recommend in terms of CPU durability?

LLC Medium is not an option because in order to run 1.2 Volts VRM VOUT, I'd have to put in something like above 1.35 I guess.

Also, the VROUT voltage is actually hitting the CPU right? Not the VCore number?


Disclaimer: I dont own a 9 series processor. Adjustable LLC has been applied to either VRIN or VCORE by intel on different architectures, and without further research, I cannot say for sure which is it for the 9900k. The core concept of LLC hasn't changed though, just the specific voltage that it is being applied to.


LLC is designed to counteract Vdroop. Vdroop is a good thing for the longevity of a processor, as it helps mitigate transient voltage spikes during switching. Totally defeating vdroop with LLC will normalize your load/unloaded voltage, but will increase the maximum voltage your processor sees. You wont be able to see the true maximum voltage from these spikes without the help of a oscilloscope, so looking at your favorite monitoring software wont tell you the whole story. The good news is that you are far from running 'extreme' voltages for intels 14nm, so it shouldn't make any meaningful difference in the life of the processor.



Personally, I would rerun your tests with the intent to determine which configuration gets you the best temperatures, and stick with that.

Melodist 09-08-2019 10:34 AM

9 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by inedenimadam (Post 28119590)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Melodist (Post 28119498)
Hello there again,

I'm trying to figure out what the most applicable LLC for my 5 GHz OC on a Gigabyte Z390 Designare is and all of the following result in 1.2 V vram vout stable AVX operation:

LLC Extreme, 5 GHz with 1.24 VCore at 1.2 Volts VRM VOUT

LLC Turbo, 5 GHz with 1.28 VCore at 1.2 Volts VRM VOUT

LLC High, 5 GHz with 1.335 VCore at 1.2 Volts VRM VOUT

Which one would you recommend in terms of CPU durability?

LLC Medium is not an option because in order to run 1.2 Volts VRM VOUT, I'd have to put in something like above 1.35 I guess.

Also, the VROUT voltage is actually hitting the CPU right? Not the VCore number?


Disclaimer: I dont own a 9 series processor. Adjustable LLC has been applied to either VRIN or VCORE by intel on different architectures, and without further research, I cannot say for sure which is it for the 9900k. The core concept of LLC hasn't changed though, just the specific voltage that it is being applied to.


LLC is designed to counteract Vdroop. Vdroop is a good thing for the longevity of a processor, as it helps mitigate transient voltage spikes during switching. Totally defeating vdroop with LLC will normalize your load/unloaded voltage, but will increase the maximum voltage your processor sees. You wont be able to see the true maximum voltage from these spikes without the help of a oscilloscope, so looking at your favorite monitoring software wont tell you the whole story. The good news is that you are far from running 'extreme' voltages for intels 14nm, so it shouldn't make any meaningful difference in the life of the processor.



Personally, I would rerun your tests with the intent to determine which configuration gets you the best temperatures, and stick with that.

What about durability with 1.335 in idle?

But then again, isn't what VRM OUT is showing what's feeding the CPU? Not VCore? Because 1.335 high LLC is 1.20 on the VRM Vout sensor.

Luck100 09-08-2019 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melodist (Post 28119606)
What about durability with 1.335 in idle?

But then again, isn't what VRM OUT is showing what's feeding the CPU? Not VCore? Because 1.335 high LLC is 1.20 on the VRM Vout sensor.

Yes, for Gigabyte boards VRM Vout is closest to the actual voltage entering the CPU.

Melodist 09-08-2019 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luck100 (Post 28119614)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Melodist (Post 28119606)
What about durability with 1.335 in idle?

But then again, isn't what VRM OUT is showing what's feeding the CPU? Not VCore? Because 1.335 high LLC is 1.20 on the VRM Vout sensor.

Yes, for Gigabyte boards VRM Vout is closest to the actual voltage entering the CPU.

Soooo, 1.335 volts aren't hitting the CPU but 1.2 instead? Something else that's affected by 1.335? Not reall right?

I'm actually pretty happy with AVX stable 1.2 @ 5 GHz, but I'm seeing all these threads posting their cpuz picture with prime running (mostly non avx) which doesn't tell at all how well their CPU is working, so to be honest, there is no real base line for me to orient on because non-avx is a walk in the park which I could probably do at 1.14 volts.

Even Battlefield V and Hunt showdown have avx by now so it is pointless to compare your CPU results without the actual voltage out and a moderate avx load, like 64k or something like Aida 64.

Melodist 09-08-2019 11:47 AM

But on a second thought, what keeps me then from going even lower LLC wise like medium and setting s voltage of somewhere 1.4 volts? Which would be even more stable and cool but where is the limit and where does it translate how?

Falkentyne 09-08-2019 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melodist (Post 28119606)
What about durability with 1.335 in idle?

But then again, isn't what VRM OUT is showing what's feeding the CPU? Not VCore? Because 1.335 high LLC is 1.20 on the VRM Vout sensor.

1.335v at idle is nothing because the amps draw at 1.335v is extremely low at idle (with LLC5/LLC High that's probably actually 1.320v-1.325v at idle as there is vdroop even at idle). Fully safe (even safer with lower LLC's!). Now if you were pulling 193 amps at 1.335v load (Measured via CPU on-die differential sense), you will degrade that processor (plus it would be completely uncoolable as well).

While 1.7v idle will slowly burn up your processor for sure, your processor is safe as long as you respect Intel's amps/voltage curve. (the problem is Loadline Calibration skews the entire formula because Intel doesn't design for Loadline calibration, only for AC Loadline (max 1.6 Ohms).

I don't believe that VRM Loadline is even mentioned in the Intel specification documents, only AC Loadline (CPU power supply) and DC Loadline (Power measurements). VRM Loadline is what is set by Loadline Calibration. It mentions that a lower AC Loadline will improve on current and temps (this will reduce the load voltage).

To stay in design limits, VRM input voltage must not exceed 1.520v, and VRM current (Amps) must not exceed 193 amps on 8 core CFL, and AC Loadline set to maximum of 1.6 mOhms. All of this assumes NO loadline calibration is being used. The 1.520v value is important because the VRM actually receives this input voltage on higher processor speeds/AC Loadlines when using AUTO voltage. Vdroop is what saves you.

The formula is basically this, with resistance being your loadline value (VRM loadline). While AC and DC loadlines are also in resistances, they are not used in the formula.

1520(mv) - (Amps * resistance)=maximum safe voltage your CPU should not exceed.
so at 193 amps, that's 1520 - (193 * 1.6)= 1.213v
At 150 amps that's 1520 - (150 * 1.6)= 1.280v

Falkentyne 09-08-2019 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melodist (Post 28119692)
But on a second thought, what keeps me then from going even lower LLC wise like medium and setting s voltage of somewhere 1.4 volts? Which would be even more stable and cool but where is the limit and where does it translate how?

If you're going to want to set a idle bios voltage of 1.4v, you're just better off switching to auto voltages, disabling loadline calibration (standard or LLC2, which I think is 1.6 mOhms on an Asus. LLC1 may be 2.1 mOhms which is too much vdroop on 8 core processors--intel specifies 1.6 max), and just using AC Loadline to control the idle and load voltages. You would get a lower idle voltage (and with same load voltage at 5 ghz) with an AC Loadline of 1.0 mOhms and LLC Standard/Normal, than you would with fixed 1.40v voltage with LLC Standard.

Melodist 09-08-2019 06:30 PM

1 Attachment(s)
So I guess I'm happy with that result, it's without AVX offset running at 5 GHz stably, Noctua NH-U12A:

https://www.overclock.net/forum/atta...294256&thumb=1


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