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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I am starting a 13600K / 13600KF-specific thread since the thread here is dominated by discussion of 13900K / high-end mobo pairings. In contrast, 13600K/F owners are more likely to use lower-end / mid-range mobos and possibly DDR4 rather than DDR5. There are also likely to be substantial differences in binning and behaviour when it comes to optimising e-core configs with 6 vs. 8 p-cores.

Discussions I hope to stimulate include:
-which combinations of hyperthreading / e-core enabled/disabled are best for gaming?
-typical / "safe" voltages for Vcore / SA etc
-typical IMC performance / RAM settings.
-what's best to prioritise to improve framerate minimums in games, P-core clock, e-core clock, cache ratio, or RAM OC?
-typical overclock results; it's complicated with so many variables to tweak these days.

I managed to snag a 13600KF + a refurb MSI Z690-P Pro on great deals thanks to some 20% off eBay codes (£400 total cost). As a result, I hastily upgraded from my 10900KF (hoping to get >£300 back for the CPU + mobo).

I am working towards OCing RAM first then working on CPU (possibly undervolt rather than OC).

Initial questions for anyone who can help:
1. My Vcore at stock settings seems to be spiking at 1.38 V. Is this normal? I set of personal limit of transient but measurable spikes of 1.36 V for my 10900KF, so this seems high.
2. What about SA voltage? At stock it seems to be 0.85 V, but enabling XMP 3600 MHz CL15 sets it to 1.35 V. Manually setting SA to 1.0 V seems fine at XMP settings for now. Again, I set SA lower on the 10900KF at 1.2 V. I ran 4200 16-16-16 on 10900KF with this kit and 3900 15-15-15 on a former 10600K, so aiming to get near to those numbers if possible. Is even 1.2 V SA "safe" on Intel 7?
3. Is it still safe to set my RAM voltage to 1.4 V?
4. Any other new voltages/issues I should look out for? I've set a 250 W / 90 C limits in BIOS to be "safe" for now.

13600KF (with Thermalright contact frame)
MSI Z690-P PRO (October 2022 BIOS)
Arctic Liquid Freezer 280 mm
2x 8 GB G.Skill 3600 15-15-15 SR B-die (high quality bin)
RTX 3080FE

I am looking forward to the discussion, or any initial tips anyone can offer.
 

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Ram you should get a fan over them and up it to 1.5-1.55V ram voltage with VCCSA 1.3-1.35V and VCCIO 1.25-1.3V and see how high you can take them, most likely well over 4000Mhz.

Stock voltages are set too high to make the overall chip pass, and throttle AIOs with a heavy load.

You would normally overclock your ram last because it takes an over volt on the CPU to get them up.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
Ram you should get a fan over them and up it to 1.5-1.55V ram voltage with VCCSA 1.3-1.35V and VCCIO 1.25-1.3V and see how high you can take them, most likely well over 4000Mhz.

Stock voltages are set too high to make the overall chip pass, and throttle AIOs with a heavy load.

You would normally overclock your ram last because it takes an over volt on the CPU to get them up.
Fan in place already. Not keen on such high voltages, I had 4200 MHz at 1.2V SA and IO and 1.4 V on the RAM before. So will stick close to those as my limits on this smaller architecture. I missed the VCCIO voltage in BIOS, has that been renamed? I saw VDDQ next to SA, from reading around seems to have taken the place of IO.


You would normally overclock your ram last because it takes an over volt on the CPU to get them up.
Given the high volts my CPU is being fed, I may try and undervolt the CPU as a first priority. This means that I should do it the other way around. Reduce voltage to something I am happy with, then clock up RAM (then CPU) as far as I can at voltage I am happy with. Reviews I have seen so far seem to indicate small gains from CPU overclocking on the 13600K, hence why I am considering prioritising RAM OC (after getting the voltage down).

Not seeing throttling so far, as I don't use Y-cruncher or Prime or any other-chip eating nonsense, but still not happy with a voltage of 1.38 V peak, and even 1.34 sustained in AC Odyssey benchmark. I'll start with a simple offset mode and/or MSI "Lite Load" to lower voltages.
 

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Initial questions for anyone who can help:
1. My Vcore at stock settings seems to be spiking at 1.38 V. Is this normal? I set of personal limit of transient but measurable spikes of 1.36 V for my 10900KF, so this seems high.
2. What about SA voltage? At stock it seems to be 0.85 V, but enabling XMP 3600 MHz CL15 sets it to 1.35 V. Manually setting SA to 1.0 V seems fine at XMP settings for now. Again, I set SA lower on the 10900KF at 1.2 V. I ran 4200 16-16-16 on 10900KF with this kit and 3900 15-15-15 on a former 10600K, so aiming to get near to those numbers if possible. Is even 1.2 V SA "safe" on Intel 7?
3. Is it still safe to set my RAM voltage to 1.4 V?
4. Any other new voltages/issues I should look out for? I've set a 250 W / 90 C limits in BIOS to be "safe" for now.
1. My 13700K came with 1.36v out of the box so it seems to be normal. However it works at much lower voltages.
2. Noticed this too, set mine at 1.15v. 1.35v SA is considered safe afaik.
3. Wouldn't know why not, I also use 1.4v.
4. You should set IccMax in the BIOS. For the 13600k it should be 170A for daily up to a max of 200A:

Rectangle Font Slope Parallel Pattern


MSI leaves this value unlimited by default.

Aside that, you should tune your DC_LL to the LLC value according to this table:

Code:
Mode 8 = 0.96 mOhm
Mode 7 = 0.69 mOhm
Mode 6 = 0.56 mOhm
Mode 5 = 0.40 mOhm
Mode 4 = 0.28 mOhm
Mode 3 = 0.12 mOhm
Mode 2 = not tested
Mode 1 = 0.01 mOhm (assumed to be so
I would start with LLC8. Then lower AC_LL as see how low you can go. This can significantly lower your Vcore. Also make sure TVB voltage optimizations are enabled as MSI likes to disable these when you OC. If your CPU is throttling when lowering Vcore (bad benchmark results) you have to disable CEP.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
1. My 13700K came with 1.36v out of the box so it seems to be normal. However it works at much lower voltages.
2. Noticed this too, set mine at 1.15v. 1.35v SA is considered safe afaik.
3. Wouldn't know why not, I also use 1.4v.
4. You should set IccMax in the BIOS. For the 13600k it should be 170A for daily up to a max of 200A:

View attachment 2581048

MSI leaves this value unlimited by default.

Aside that, you should tune your DC_LL to the LLC value according to this table:

Code:
Mode 8 = 0.96 mOhm
Mode 7 = 0.69 mOhm
Mode 6 = 0.56 mOhm
Mode 5 = 0.40 mOhm
Mode 4 = 0.28 mOhm
Mode 3 = 0.12 mOhm
Mode 2 = not tested
Mode 1 = 0.01 mOhm (assumed to be so
I would start with LLC8. Then lower AC_LL as see how low you can go. This can significantly lower your Vcore. Also make sure TVB voltage optimizations are enabled as MSI likes to disable these when you OC. If your CPU is throttling when lowering Vcore (bad benchmark results) you have to disable CEP.
Thanks. I found IA CEP.
 

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In my experience newer gen cpus on older gen motherboards have always show a bigger VID, what is not good for offset or adaptative voltage. I know we can subtract voltage, but again in my experience it's not the same as add. I also bought a Z690 tuf ddr4. I'm just deciding on 13th gen i5 or i7. A bit worried if voltages on Z690 will not be an issue.
Have also a question if someone knows ! The TUF doesn't have bios flashback, only "crash free bios 3", used to flash corrupted bios. Can we use that in order to upgrade the bios, if I get and older bios (older then 1603) that not support the 13th gen ?
 

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I don't know man, but all that AC/DC_LL, TVB optimizations etc is such a hassle and a major waste of time, to be honest. Why not set all the p-cores to manual and start with something like 5.0-5.1Ghz and 1.20V all core fixed? It takes 30 minutes to find your chip's oc/cooling limit this way. Once you find the right frequency/vcore you can always go back to per-core tuning and e-cores/ring. Might need to add a smidgen of vcore later to stabilize high ram oc.
 

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On my MSI z690-a pro motherboard I only changed the auto voltage to 1.10v and the CPU is cool in every application. It never exceeds 170W. When idle, it uses 4.5W.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
On my MSI z690-a pro motherboard I only changed the auto voltage to 1.10v and the CPU is cool in every application. It never exceeds 170W. When idle, it uses 4.5W.
Nice. Mine is idling at 3.5 W so far, which is even lower than my 10900KF was. Happy with that.
Under load, the 13600KF is more voltage/power hungry than 12600K due to the 4 additional e cores and higher clock speeds.

Once I have a decent "stock like" undervolt + RAM OC in place, I'm curious to explore what happens to gaming performance/possible clock speed at the same power consumption as the stock core config, but with ecores disabled. I did see "legacy gaming mode" in the BIOS, which is supposed to enable e cores to be parked when scroll lock is pressed, but I wasn't convinced that it was working. Does disabling e cores disable their associated cache? If so, I suspect disabling them might not be very beneficial unless p core clocks can be pumped really high.

Updates on progress so far:
1. Getting voltages down.
With MSI LiteLoad set to 11 instead of auto (12) CPU voltage now keeps below 1.28 V and power <155 W, 5.1 GHz all p cores, e cores and cache stock. HT and virtualization disabled. That'll do for now.

2. RAM OC.
1.40 V dimm, 1.25 V SA, 1.25 VDDQ (will try and lower these later):

Settled on 4300 MHz, 17-17-17-38 so far. Impressed with this IMC for a "lowly i5" (matching my 10900KF) and happy with MSI yet again for their great memory OC (even on a their lowest end Z690, a refurbed one at that).

3. CPU OC.
After that I just casually started turning up the CPU ratio. Got to 5.7 GHz on all p-cores in a few minutes without really trying (HT off); and this is with loads of <175 W (CB23) and voltage staying below 1.28 V. 5.8 GHz at this voltage is unstable. The load voltage only went up by 20 W going from 5.1 GHz to 5.7 GHz. This is a bonkers good CPU!
 

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Hi, I have a 13600k and an MSI pro z690-A ddr5 coming next week, currently looking for a power supply for it, do you guys think its necessary to look for one with 2x 8pin EPS connectors? I plan on overclocking on air with an AK620.
 

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4300 MHz, 17-17-17-38
The motherboard will probably set you G2 not G1 at this memory speed and it will lower your access times and your gaming performance. I would aim for 4000-4100 Cl 15-16 in the G1.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
The motherboard will probably set you G2 not G1 at this memory speed and it will lower your access times and your gaming performance. I would aim for 4000-4100 Cl 15-16 in the G1.
Hmmm... I set it as gear 1 in the bios. I see FSB:RAM ratio as 1:43 in CPU-Z, but AIDA says DRAM:FSB Ratio 43:2. This is at stock cache ratio for now. SA 1.22 V, VDDQ 1.22 V, Vdimm 1.40 V (1.20 V on both SA and VDDQ was unstable).

Font Screenshot Electronic device Multimedia Software
Rectangle Font Screenshot Technology Parallel


Edit: yep, after Googling around that's gear 1. The 4300 MHz RAM freq means that 43:2 is shown as DRAM:FSB ratio in AIDA. If it was 4000 MHz gear 1 that ratio would show as 20:1. Also, having checked a few other results on googling this, it looks like I already have a nice RAM OC without tweaking secondaries and tertiaries beyond reducing tRFC to 368, from the very loose 736 that it initially trained to. AIDA possibly still has a bug that means that the 49.9 ns latency is really ~45 ns. I will possibly push tRFC down a bit more, but happy with this so far for little effort. Gear 1 3900 15-15-15 gave lower performance than this, at least without any extra tweaking. I'm likely already at the point of diminishing performance returns in terms relative to testing time/stability. Consider this is a top B-die bin (G.Skill 3600 15-15-15-35 @ 1.35 V) that released before higher frequency kits were a "thing". It is also a 2x 8 GB single rank kit, so easier on the IMC than DR.
 

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You don't need to search or check all that, all you need to look at is are Mem controller freq. and DRAM Frequency the same.
 
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Subbing to this. I just assembled a basic 'budget' rig today. I agree a thread for the non-1x900s would be useful.

Asrock Z690 Extreme (way cheaper now than when it was new)
13600K
2x16GB Crucial Ballistix Max DDR4-4400 that I nabbed on ebay for cheap.

Running my DRP4 heatsink for now, but will migrate to a custom loop with a GTX240 as I have time, combined with my Heatkiller'ed 2080Ti in it. I want to see what it'll do on this heatsink first. I'm even running on the Xe iGPU for funsies! It runs 4k60 Youtube with hardly any decode usage, and will run Heaven at about 60fps at 720p, and 20fps at 1200p. Tempted to try World of Warships on it just for the hell of it. Maybe some 3Dmark benching and OC it, too. Why not?

So far, I seem to have DDR4-4200 fully stable on stock everything in the bios, at Gear 1 and CR2. 4266 goes unstable on P95, and 4400 will not post at all, even with VCCSA up to 1.35V.

I have not figured out how to get the CPU to not throttle down when stress testing yet. I've seen a peak of 80C and 200W, and after a short bit it'll cut down to 125W and 65C or so. I want max wattage all the time with my only throttling limit set to temperature. I also can't figure out how to set CR1 on the memory. I'm not as familiar with Asrock Bios. Only played with Gigabyte for years before this.

edit Ok I figured out how to just let the CPU use max watts at all times. Cruising on P95 at 5.1GHz at 200W and 90C. Not bad, but not much running room for OC'ing unless I put it on water. Even though the DRP4 is rated for 250W, it gets overloaded above 200W in real life, even with winter ambients. Also bumped the base clock to 100.5MHz in the bios to give me 100.25MHz in CPU-Z.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
Subbing to this. I just assembled a basic 'budget' rig today. I agree a thread for the non-1x900s would be useful.

Asrock Z690 Extreme (way cheaper now than when it was new)
13600K
2x16GB Crucial Ballistix Max DDR4-4400 that I nabbed on ebay for cheap.

Running my DRP4 heatsink for now, but will migrate to a custom loop with a GTX240 as I have time, combined with my Heatkiller'ed 2080Ti in it. I want to see what it'll do on this heatsink first. I'm even running on the Xe iGPU for funsies! It runs 4k60 Youtube with hardly any decode usage, and will run Heaven at about 60fps at 720p, and 20fps at 1200p. Tempted to try World of Warships on it just for the hell of it. Maybe some 3Dmark benching and OC it, too. Why not?

So far, I seem to have DDR4-4200 fully stable on stock everything in the bios, at Gear 1 and CR2. 4266 goes unstable on P95, and 4400 will not post at all, even with VCCSA up to 1.35V.

I have not figured out how to get the CPU to not throttle down when stress testing yet. I've seen a peak of 80C and 200W, and after a short bit it'll cut down to 125W and 65C or so. I want max wattage all the time with my only throttling limit set to temperature. I also can't figure out how to set CR1 on the memory. I'm not as familiar with Asrock Bios. Only played with Gigabyte for years before this.

edit Ok I figured out how to just let the CPU use max watts at all times. Cruising on P95 at 5.1GHz at 200W and 90C. Not bad, but not much running room for OC'ing unless I put it on water. Even though the DRP4 is rated for 250W, it gets overloaded above 200W in real life, even with winter ambients. Also bumped the base clock to 100.5MHz in the bios to give me 100.25MHz in CPU-Z.
Have you tried reducing your voltage and/LLC aggressiveness? My board was overvolting my 13600K from the get go (upto 1.36 V). My 13600KF now doesn't see over 1.20 Vcore and 120-130 W (by using the 2nd to lowest MSI "LiteLoad" loadline = 2). Power consumption was originally 180-200 W. The 13600K/F has a stock power limit of 181 W for a reason (same current limit per core as 13900K, but the 13600K has less cores, so less power tolerant). Since your 200 W exceeds the stock 181 W limit for 13600K, then that could lead to degradation in something demanding such as Prime/y cruncher.

After lowering the loadline, my 13600KF now pulls less than ~130 W (e.g. CB23 / OCCT) vs 180 W previously. I haven't been near Prime95 as I want to avoid degrading my chip with large currents. I've run CB23, OCCT and gaming sessions using "LiteLoad 2" and had no crashes or freezes so far. Indeed, it should be guaranteed stable at stock frequencies since LiteLoad = 1 should be the stock Intel V/F curve. Boards seem to overvolt above this as default (default LiteLoad was set much higher at 12).

Currently running 57,57,56,56,55,54 core config (1 to 6 cores loaded, i.e. 54 all P cores), 43 e cores, 45 (stock) ring, since I seem to be able to get away with that whilst keeping the gentle loadline. Lowering clocks to stock (51p/39e/45r) only lowers load power from 130 W max to 120 W max. My CPU never exceeds 65 C (arctic liquid freezer 280 mm). If I do get any crashes or errors, I'll simply back down on the "free" frequency overhead I get at LiteLoad 2.

Our IMC quality sounds similar, but check your system agent and keep that low (I use 1.20 V on SA and VDDQ at 4266 MHz 17-17-17).
 

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I only just noticed you are using samsung B die SR.

A 'high quality bin' of that should be pulling off 4133 CL14 at around 1.55v

As for safety some several hundreds of people with such ram already doing this.

If it doesn't manage at least 4000CL14, its not a high quality bin unfortunately.

4200+ should be able to do that at CL15 on SR b die, and in terms of raw latency, nothing else beats this when correctly configured as such.

The only downside is you are stuck to 16 Gb for the current best latency setup that is possible.
 

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Subbing to this. I just assembled a basic 'budget' rig today. I agree a thread for the non-1x900s would be useful.

Asrock Z690 Extreme (way cheaper now than when it was new)
13600K
2x16GB Crucial Ballistix Max DDR4-4400 that I nabbed on ebay for cheap.
And after Samsung B die 2x8, this is the next kit that can reliably pull off 4000-4133CL14 (and the one I have).

Latency is worse on it due to needing much higher secondaries, but its 2x16 vs 2x8.

I haven't been able to get mine to boot at 4200CL14 G2 though, and my current board has no 4133 multiplier (only runs 100:100), and am IMC capped to 3800G1. Hopefully the new board and 13th gen will fix that soon, as well as 133 ram multipliers normally allowing for better stability.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 · (Edited)
I only just noticed you are using samsung B die SR.

A 'high quality bin' of that should be pulling off 4133 CL14 at around 1.55v

As for safety some several hundreds of people with such ram already doing this.

If it doesn't manage at least 4000CL14, its not a high quality bin unfortunately.

4200+ should be able to do that at CL15 on SR b die, and in terms of raw latency, nothing else beats this when correctly configured as such.

The only downside is you are stuck to 16 Gb for the current best latency setup that is possible.
Not sure if you are talking to me or someone else, but I am running what I would consider a high-quality SR B-die kit. Personally, I don't like setting more than 1.40 to 1.45 V on RAM, so sticking with 1.40 V @ 4266 MHz 17-17-17, gear 1. SA = 1.20 V, VDDQ = 1.20 V. I have no idea how it would perform at 1.55 Vdimm, but those numbers you mentioned may be possible. I prefer conservative voltages/temps all round.

Either way, current settings give me this, not too shabby given the voltages used (background apps closed):
Font Screenshot Electronic device Software Multimedia

I had to back down from 4300 MHz noted in a previous post as I got occasional errors in OCCT memory test. The same kit gave 3900 15-15-15 on 10600K, and 4200 16-16-16 on 10900KF, both at 1.40 Vdimm, 1.20 SA, 1.20 IO. Same timings used on these previous CPUS but with the 13600KF gave lower performance than I show above. Overall, the 13600KF is giving me better throughput, but higher latency.
 
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