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Regarding XP vs 7, it's very difficult to compare both because the former only has a 32-bit version for consumers, the scheduler wasn't optimized for more than two cores, with Vista and later thus performing better on quad cores and beyond, and XP also lacks support for TRIM and AVX.
Actually, there is a 64-bit version of XP, I have a copy of it. I'm sure many of your complaints about XP and Vista hold true regardless. It wasn't a terrible OS, but it was another testing ground of sorts. The main issue with it was driver support, which it didn't get because attention was directed at Vista instead.
 

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Waiting for 7nm EUV
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Actually, there is a 64-bit version of XP, I have a copy of it. I'm sure many of your complaints about XP and Vista hold true regardless. It wasn't a terrible OS, but it was another testing ground of sorts. The main issue with it was driver support, which it didn't get because attention was directed at Vista instead.

Sure, but it's not the "Home Edition" consumer version as I mentioned, it's the Professional version (or the even rarer and more limited version made for Itanium systems), which never got much traction because of its limited market scope and for being very late in the OS cycle (XP Home and Professional 32-bit were launched in Oct of 2001, whereas Windows XP Professional x64 Edition was only launched in April of 2005, even after SP2).
 

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See what I mean?
Here on a PC enthusiast forum it blows my mind just how easily most people accept defeat from MS (who makes the most commonly hacked OS
I like 10 simply because after making it behave like 7 you're left with a much faster OS that's easier on resources, plus the search bar is on point and you don't have to bother with 99% of your drivers.
I've tried and the problem is that you simply cannot ever win permanently with Win 10. Every hack or work around is routinely worked back in through an update, the OS ignores user commands for certain things, mostly privacy/data leak related, coincidence right... I have win 10 enterprise and the OS will ignore settings set through the group policy unless I trick it into thinking it's actually part of an "enterprise" by running my own corporate active directory/update server.

You cannot stop the data leakage out of it, it's futile; there's too many leaks and just when you thought you plugged them all more leaks emerge. The OS will ignore certain hosts entries if you try and block it access to MS servers. The only thing you can do to truly gain control is setting it behind a default deny out firewall at the router level and work it in whitelist mode, but then the OS thinks it's perma offline and behaves all gimped and even then if you whitelist something it will spew out encrypted data of nobody knows what from you PC. You can't inspect it, you don't know what it is or what it isn't.
 

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I've tried and the problem is that you simply cannot ever win permanently with Win 10. Every hack or work around is routinely worked back in through an update, the OS ignores user commands for certain things, mostly privacy/data leak related, coincidence right... I have win 10 enterprise and the OS will ignore settings set through the group policy unless I trick it into thinking it's actually part of an "enterprise" by running my own corporate active directory/update server.

You cannot stop the data leakage out of it, it's futile; there's too many leaks and just when you thought you plugged them all more leaks emerge. The OS will ignore certain hosts entries if you try and block it access to MS servers. The only thing you can do to truly gain control is setting it behind a default deny out firewall at the router level and work it in whitelist mode, but then the OS thinks it's perma offline and behaves all gimped and even then if you whitelist something it will spew out encrypted data of nobody knows what from you PC. You can't inspect it, you don't know what it is or what it isn't.
Well one main point is to no longer have updates forced upon you. Save O&O in it's own folder anywhere, when you choose to update on your own terms simply tell O&O to apply the tweaks again, ezpz. Updating is the only thing that will revert changes made, I actually never brother updating at all unless there's something I want or there's a new build. Pretty sure I ran the same build for almost a year not long ago and my changes never reverted.

O&O disables much of the network chatter as well and AFAIK it's doing the same things that 7 was after I'd tweaked it, unless I'm using firefox my network usage is 0% all the time from what I've seen but that's already less data than 7 will sent by default which makes it a moot point on the whole 7 vs 7 thing.
You and I share a similar mindset about a lot of things, I wouldn't be using 10 if I couldn't tame it as easily as it was to apply my own tweaks to 7.

Matter of fact:
 

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Web Developer full stack
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This is a good news.

Personally I'm on windows 7 and I don't feel the need to change. Everything is running good and I know the interface and functionality very well.
 

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Vermin Supreme 2020
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I care. GTX 970 and W7.


So I rate your statement as false. :)
Steam Survey shows lots of people will likely care.

Also, the WoW thing makes perfect sense. We @ OCN tend to forget the casual gamer, playing on an ancient machine caked in cigarette smoke, still leveling their Mohawk NightElf.
 
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Hi,
Suppose I should of said nobody would probably notice any difference in dx12 or 11 used in a game or vulkan for that matter meaning this is not a big deal worth even thinking of

I'm sure MS has it's reasons and it's all money based you can be sure of :)
 

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I've tried and the problem is that you simply cannot ever win permanently with Win 10. Every hack or work around is routinely worked back in through an update, the OS ignores user commands for certain things, mostly privacy/data leak related, coincidence right... I have win 10 enterprise and the OS will ignore settings set through the group policy unless I trick it into thinking it's actually part of an "enterprise" by running my own corporate active directory/update server.

You cannot stop the data leakage out of it, it's futile; there's too many leaks and just when you thought you plugged them all more leaks emerge. The OS will ignore certain hosts entries if you try and block it access to MS servers. The only thing you can do to truly gain control is setting it behind a default deny out firewall at the router level and work it in whitelist mode, but then the OS thinks it's perma offline and behaves all gimped and even then if you whitelist something it will spew out encrypted data of nobody knows what from you PC. You can't inspect it, you don't know what it is or what it isn't.
My question is whether you use NTLite or something similar to cut the bloat out of the ISO (often created from an ESD file)? I find I have to cut PRETTY deep to actually get out a lot of the spyware. Been doing this for years in Win 10. Unfortunately, some programs, due to this, actually run less efficient than had I left the spyware in.

As to it fixing itself, if you leave server initiated self-healing module intact, it will compare the cache stores of the components to the server list and correct that and feature settings to match that of Microsoft's servers. Instead, you need to cut deep enough that you get rid of the update module, neuter the Asimov telemetry and other telemetry monitoring and logging elements, and even this won't get rid of everything, but will destroy the bulk of the Win 10 spyware. Then, you can rely on WSUS applications to choose which updates to download and install after thoroughly disabling the windows update, cortana, etc. Unfortunately, until next month's update, gutting Cortana destroys the search bar functionality entirely (supposedly they will be allowing the removal of Cortana again with the next update like the first version of Win 10 until the Anniversary update baked that sh**cake in so deep that you couldn't remove it without messing with certain search functions). Also, some updates won't apply with your mods, requiring creating an ISO with the newest updates added to the ISO, then cutting out the components you don't want again, which then becomes a monthly endeavor to stay recent on security fixes, etc. Headache after headache.

I've seen some try to do the firewall thing, resulting in the OS constantly polling to try to report the data back, thereby tying up resources and actually doing a significant slowdown to the system. You may want to go the route of removing modules, etc. DISM is good, but has limitations, unfortunately, which is why I choose NTLite, but there are other similar freeware/shareware/paid programs that can accomplish the same goals (which are harder unless you have a working knowledge of DISM and Powershell and go through extensive editing there, reg editing, and gpedit, which is important to learn and understand what is happening and being done, but is a PITA, if being honest).

Well one main point is to no longer have updates forced upon you. Save O&O in it's own folder anywhere, when you choose to update on your own terms simply tell O&O to apply the tweaks again, ezpz. Updating is the only thing that will revert changes made, I actually never brother updating at all unless there's something I want or there's a new build. Pretty sure I ran the same build for almost a year not long ago and my changes never reverted.

O&O disables much of the network chatter as well and AFAIK it's doing the same things that 7 was after I'd tweaked it, unless I'm using firefox my network usage is 0% all the time from what I've seen but that's already less data than 7 will sent by default which makes it a moot point on the whole 7 vs 7 thing.
You and I share a similar mindset about a lot of things, I wouldn't be using 10 if I couldn't tame it as easily as it was to apply my own tweaks to 7.

Matter of fact:
O&O, although good, is not the be all and end all of fixing Win 10. There is a LOT more that is needed (see above). Makes me wonder how much you tweaked on Win 7 and which utilities you used to do so. Either way, I would recommend, for simplicity sake, that O&O or other similar software be used in conjunction with other efforts, especially if people are not familiar with some of the more advanced methods to accomplish the same goal, or just as a time saver. But I really feel people need more awareness of exactly how spyware-y windows has become. It is BAD!
 

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Probably pressure from developers willing to move to Vulkan, so M$ throws them a bone to keep them on their API.

What on earth people love about Win7 I don't understand since even 8.1 was better than 7. And 7 was slower than XP.
It's more about GUI changes and not actual performance why people stick with something they are visually familiar with.
8.1 was terrible. The only reason to use it was for a touchscreen. Let's have Apps (formerly known as applications, aka programs), that aren't programs and have their own menu. Don't even think about uninstalling them as a program, they don't show up in the add/remove program section. They are apps, and must be accessed through the app menu.

Windows 8 was an attempt to grab phone users, which failed bad enough to put Nokia out of business.
 

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⤷ αC
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Discussion Starter #31 (Edited)
Vulkan adoption needs to go up...

https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/quick-test-futuremark-3dmark-v2-3-3663-vulkan-api-overhead-benchmarks,2.html


86102.png
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(CPU is Intel Core i7-4960X @ 4.2GHz , 6 cores with HT)

https://www.anandtech.com/show/11223/quick-look-vulkan-3dmark-api-overhead


From this past year, for Vega 56 with i7-8700k @ 5.1: https://www.3dmark.com/aot/259545
DirectX 11 Multi-threaded draw calls per second 2 321 868
DirectX 11 Single-threaded draw calls per second 2 596 358
DirectX 12 draw calls per second 25 528 344
Vulkan draw calls per second 24 898 888
 

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@AlphaC
I totally agree, I'd prefer Vulcan over DX12 (obvious reasons) but at this point I'd really appreciate the industry adopting either. I don't understand a lot of the games that were made which support both, maybe it's different today but I remember every single title being worse on 12. AMD's cards did a bit better than comparable Pascal cards but I think both still did better using 11. I think I'm just missing out on the point of doing both.

@ajc9988
I actually liked 7 a lot, most things I played with were regedits but I also stripped the .ISO down to a minimum several times for various reasons, same for 10. I played around with custom skins a bit but I was never really happy with the outcome.
O&O is enough to make 10 act like 7 and it's much easier than making a custom .ISO
I'm not basing my PC off of your needs or wants, 10 is a really good improvement over 7 but I had the same complaints everyone else did with bloatware, mandatory updates, OneDrive, advertising and so on (at first it wasn't like that) so I disabled them manually at first, then made custom .ISOs before finding O&O which I actually prefer over every stripped .ISO I made or tried for my gaming rig. Stripping down the .ISO did result in a smaller size as well as lower idle hardware use but to do that I loose out on features I actually want.
If I wanted the OS you were describing I just wouldn't use Windows, the only reason I primarily use Windows is because it plays all the games and it boots really fast which is great for overclocking.
 

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It helps explain why Blizz bothered giving WoW the dx12 treatment considering the age of a lot of their playerbase's systems.

Blizzard likes turn-key solutions. Supporting Dx12 is the road of least effort. They could have went with Vulkan across the board, but instead its Dx12 and Metal instead.
 

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@AlphaC
I totally agree, I'd prefer Vulcan over DX12 (obvious reasons) but at this point I'd really appreciate the industry adopting either. I don't understand a lot of the games that were made which support both, maybe it's different today but I remember every single title being worse on 12. AMD's cards did a bit better than comparable Pascal cards but I think both still did better using 11. I think I'm just missing out on the point of doing both.

@ajc9988
I actually liked 7 a lot, most things I played with were regedits but I also stripped the .ISO down to a minimum several times for various reasons, same for 10. I played around with custom skins a bit but I was never really happy with the outcome.
O&O is enough to make 10 act like 7 and it's much easier than making a custom .ISO
I'm not basing my PC off of your needs or wants, 10 is a really good improvement over 7 but I had the same complaints everyone else did with bloatware, mandatory updates, OneDrive, advertising and so on (at first it wasn't like that) so I disabled them manually at first, then made custom .ISOs before finding O&O which I actually prefer over every stripped .ISO I made or tried for my gaming rig. Stripping down the .ISO did result in a smaller size as well as lower idle hardware use but to do that I loose out on features I actually want.
If I wanted the OS you were describing I just wouldn't use Windows, the only reason I primarily use Windows is because it plays all the games and it boots really fast which is great for overclocking.
Overall, it took a LOT of trial and error to get the ISO modded to the point where I keep functionality, but either rid the OS of the spyware or kneecap it in such a way where it doesn't function, while leaving full functionality for my software suites. Now, there is a little performance hit, likely due to certain parts polling to removed modules used for telemetry monitoring that were removed, but the hit is generally under 5% (average is around 2%, but there are a couple outlier programs that get more of a hit). I've now got it fairly good where it is stable, but without all the negative elements, while keeping the features I care about. Some things I couldn't gut without destroying fully the functionality, so kneecaps and workarounds were required. And to be clear, I have to do the same to get rid of spyware on LTSC, so I see no benefit to that over the full Enterprise ISO, which does carry some features not available under the LTSC that I see as beneficial for my uses.

Please forgive the gruffness of the first response, I've just been modding MS windows for a long while now and find Win 10 to be the absolute worst from them on amount of work it requires me to do to get the software to behave the way I want it (and to cut out the monitoring of activities on MY devices). WaaS is BS, and now we are seeing the monitoring spread into other programs and games, proliferating like a plague across the computing communities. I find people don't know what they are giving up as being a primary reason that has allowed for that proliferation. But I digress on that point.

My main purpose in addressing that was to encourage people to dig deeper, learn more, and gain more control over their devices. Many stop with O&O and software to change the start menu functionality. That is fine. But learning the intricacies of shaping the OS can also be very rewarding (at least until I master compiling my own Linux kernels, which I am learning in my spare time with some success, and some failures, lol).
 

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Man I don't even know what to say. I honestly feel like games are held back because they can't fully support 12 alone. Since most people don't know how to control 10 (or don't feel that they should have to) they're going to stay on 7 for as long as they possibly can. Not putting 12 on 7 and drastically changing what the OS manages on 10 are both big factors here, I love 10 personally but I'd never use it in it's vanilla flavor. Installing bloatware even after you delete it is a serious slap in the face and it's only a small part of my issues with the way 10 works.

Maybe MS will see that all this is preventing 12 from really being utilized and make some changes.
I dunno, Win10 has gained a LOT of momentum over the past couple years and it has surpassed Win7 to become the new leader in OS market share. Sure, its still close at the moment, but with Win7's extended support nearing an end I expect Win10 will be the dominant OS on PC very quickly. Even the most hardcore of Win10 haters will soon have to choose between leaving MS (and all of its vast compatibility advantages) altogether or sucking it up and installing Win10.

Given that impending end of Win7 support, I do find this news rather surprising...
 

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Graphics Junkie
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See what I mean?
Here on a PC enthusiast forum it blows my mind just how easily most people accept defeat from MS (who makes the most commonly hacked OS). Turning off the new "features" was the first thing I did when it was in beta. Checked some boxes IIRC and it was done. FWIW this wasn't something exclusive to 10, I did a lot of the same edits on 7. Now I just have a few extra boxes to check, no biggie. Actually it's much easier to do this on 10 using stand alone tools like O&O.

I like 10 simply because after making it behave like 7 you're left with a much faster OS that's easier on resources, plus the search bar is on point and you don't have to bother with 99% of your drivers.
Just feel the need to point out, windows is the most hacked OS because it's the most widely used. It's not like the security is bad compared to other OSes (though I'm sure some people would argue that), it's just the largest target by far.
 

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I dunno, Win10 has gained a LOT of momentum over the past couple years and it has surpassed Win7 to become the new leader in OS market share. Sure, its still close at the moment, but with Win7's extended support nearing an end I expect Win10 will be the dominant OS on PC very quickly. Even the most hardcore of Win10 haters will soon have to choose between leaving MS (and all of its vast compatibility advantages) altogether or sucking it up and installing Win10.

Given that impending end of Win7 support, I do find this news rather surprising...
10 will grow...it has to. What I'm saying is that if MS would cut out the BS that everyone hates there won't be nearly as much resistance, people hear/see that Windows forces things on you by default and it's probably easier to never try and stay on 7 than it is to work with 10. I really feel like MS is the reason their own API is still totally dormant. They made a great product with a bunch of strings attached by default, even if they revert the behavior I think a lot of people would STILL stay on 7 because first impressions are everything but it would be a start. I beta tested it so I was watching the poop hit the fan but it's not possible for a piece of software to be evil or care about what it's doing so I looked past the devs and chose to make it work on my own terms. I'm probably 1% of 1% that did that though.

They might stop supporting 7 but that won't stop anyone from using it anyway. People hate 10 because it forces updates, so not receiving them for 7 won't be a big deal I wouldn't think.



Just feel the need to point out, windows is the most hacked OS because it's the most widely used. It's not like the security is bad compared to other OSes (though I'm sure some people would argue that), it's just the largest target by far.
Unix is baked into just about anything that runs a custom GUI from washing machines to cars. Then there's the Unix based Apple OS flavors and Android...not sure but it's probably Unix based too. Windows security might have come a long way but it wasn't all that long ago that I was in the computer lab at school using the Windows/DELL machines to create my own Admin account without having one to start off with and sending commands to other PCs on the network for lulz. Windows is popular on desktop but I doubt it's the most common OS anymore, many people barely use laptops and PCs anymore. Many business are largely tablet based as well.
 

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Graphics Junkie
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10 will grow...it has to. What I'm saying is that if MS would cut out the BS that everyone hates there won't be nearly as much resistance, people hear/see that Windows forces things on you by default and it's probably easier to never try and stay on 7 than it is to work with 10. I really feel like MS is the reason their own API is still totally dormant. They made a great product with a bunch of strings attached by default, even if they revert the behavior I think a lot of people would STILL stay on 7 because first impressions are everything but it would be a start. I beta tested it so I was watching the poop hit the fan but it's not possible for a piece of software to be evil or care about what it's doing so I looked past the devs and chose to make it work on my own terms. I'm probably 1% of 1% that did that though.

They might stop supporting 7 but that won't stop anyone from using it anyway. People hate 10 because it forces updates, so not receiving them for 7 won't be a big deal I wouldn't think.




Unix is baked into just about anything that runs a custom GUI from washing machines to cars. Then there's the Unix based Apple OS flavors and Android...not sure but it's probably Unix based too. Windows security might have come a long way but it wasn't all that long ago that I was in the computer lab at school using the Windows/DELL machines to create my own Admin account without having one to start off with and sending commands to other PCs on the network for lulz. Windows is popular on desktop but I doubt it's the most common OS anymore, many people barely use laptops and PCs anymore. Many business are largely tablet based as well.
People Don't do their taxes on android. Most common OS or not, it's still the most valuable target for hackers by far, though that could change sooner than later. That said, Microsoft seems to have top notch leadership now. I don't see them losing their foothold anytime soon. Android is popular now but Microsoft is looking towards the future and they already have windows pretty fleshed out in AR for hardware no one is even using yet. When mobile phones get replaced by something better, Microsoft will likely be ready for it. They're not going to let another Steve Balmer happen and completely miss out on the next big hardware shift.
 

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Yes they do:
https://turbotax.intuit.com/personal-taxes/mobile-apps/turbotax.jsp
https://www.taxslayer.com/tax-tools/mobile-apps
https://www.hrblock.com/mobile-apps/index.html
http://www.taxact.com/tax_redirect.asp?link=E2014200
https://www.creditkarma.com/
http://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tools/calculators/taxcaster/iphone
The list goes on and on and they all have hundreds of thousands of reviews....reviews, not downloads.

All facets of finance are done largely on mobile devices, it's much easier do do a lot of these things on mobile than it is in a browser or PC application.
Software devs generally work with hardware no one is using yet, without the software it can't be used.


Windows gets hacked easily because you can get any idiot to download an .exe if you promise them free music. The biggest security risk in windows is the user.
 

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Graphics Junkie
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Yes they do:
https://turbotax.intuit.com/personal-taxes/mobile-apps/turbotax.jsp
https://www.taxslayer.com/tax-tools/mobile-apps
https://www.hrblock.com/mobile-apps/index.html
http://www.taxact.com/tax_redirect.asp?link=E2014200
https://www.creditkarma.com/
http://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tools/calculators/taxcaster/iphone
The list goes on and on and they all have hundreds of thousands of reviews....reviews, not downloads.

All facets of finance are done largely on mobile devices, it's much easier do do a lot of these things on mobile than it is in a browser or PC application.
Software devs generally work with hardware no one is using yet, without the software it can't be used.


Windows gets hacked easily because you can get any idiot to download an .exe if you promise them free music. The biggest security risk in windows is the use.
Come on man I'm not saying people CANT do their taxes on android or some other OS, but its uncommon relatively speaking. Don't bed over backwards just to be devils advocate and completely miss the actual point.


I agree that the biggest risk to windows is the users, but that is forever going to be true for the most widely used open OS. Android is more open than iOS but it's nothing compared to windows. It's really in a league of it's own, as there is no other consumer x86 open platform OS with anywhere close to the market share that windows has, so any comparison really just falls flat.
 
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