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LTSC for life crew
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Discussion Starter #1
We’ve all been familiar with Quick Charge and its various implementations over the years, innovating beyond the classical USB power delivery limits of 5W over 7 years ago. In recent years, we’ve seen the maximum charge speeds continuously improve, going from 10W in Quick Charge 1.0, to 18W in 3.0, to up to 27W in recent 4.0-certified chargers which make use of USB-PD.

Today for Quick Charge 5, Qualcomm is again changing the charger and PMIC architecture to be able to quadruple the charging speeds, allowing up to 100W of charge power.


Source - https://www.anandtech.com/show/15928/qualcomm-announces-quick-charge-5-pdpps-up-to-100w

Finally a charging upgrade that actually is going to make a difference. QC 2 was great but QC 3 & QC 4 weren't much of a change. Now QC 5 has crazy huge potential here, though it's going to be up to manufacturers on whether they make full use of the new ability.
 

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AMD Acolyte
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High end phones are already thermally limited much of the time at 27w—I don't have much faith in seeing 100w going into much of anything except large tablets in short bursts in an air conditioned room. The real limit is the internal resistance of the cells. That said, moving more of the voltage regulation out of the phone should help with thermals.

All in all, I like the improved efficiency and thermals, but I don't like dumping a ton of current into a "non"-replaceable battery. I wish these advanced QC5 chargers would come with a "slow charge" mode that limits charge current to 1 or 2 amps to help reduce battery degradation. Better yet, I'd like phones to have user enable-able options to limit charge current(or even charge level).

My last phone's battery lasted 22 months of daily use before degrading to 60% with a 5v/850ma charger. After that I replaced the battery(which required specialty screwdrivers, glue, and a heat-gun to install) and switched to the OEM QC3(12v/1.5a) charger. The replacement battery only lasted 12 months. Maybe the battery wasn't as good as the original(It measured fine when new), but I think the higher current from the quick charger played a big role in the accelerated degradation.

For my new phone I've taken to just charging to 85%. Thankfully, the SD730 is very power efficient.
 

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Overclocker
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And what batteries are they going to put into the phones?
There is a practical limit of what even large high discharge/charge rate, low impedance lipos can take.

Phone batteries are notorious to wear out fast due to their tiny size, capacity and overall capabilities/quality.

Overall a good practice for lithium batteries is to charge at 1C max if you want them to last. Plus a lot of these batteries can only take high current/power at low charge levels and then become voltage limited and slowly charge up to max. CC/CV charging. So they are making the CC charging faster but who wants to carry around a 100W power brick as a phone charger? On top of that they keep raising the voltage over the user USB cables so they can keep the current down over the crappy USB cables. So the phone itself then has to drop the voltage down to what the battery can actually accept = wasted heat in the phone.
 

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Overclocking Enthusiast
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Well you could split the cells of the battery up and charge them individually. Some of the newer 65w phones already use a dual-cell battery technology to do that. And some chargers use multiple usb-c pins to charge faster.
 

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Otherworlder
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battery type, configuration and design is indeed the limiting factor, and lets not even talk about those cheapo battery from god knows where the manufacturers got them.
 

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Registered
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I don't give a damn about how fast things can charge. Can we go back to making thicker phones with batteries that can last more than 1.5 years?
 

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BOINC Cruncher
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I'll be happy if batteries stop doing this


nexus03.jpg
 

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AMD Acolyte
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Thanks. That's a useful app, but it doesn't limit current. While I root/unlock all of my phones, I want something baked into the ROM from the OEM without root. I shouldn't have to void my warranty to preserve the life of my "non-replaceable" batteries.

I want Qualcomm(or anybody, really) to implement an advanced charging system that isn't JUST about speed. Basically something like Chargie, but better since it wouldn't need a dongle or Bluetooth pairing and would have access to the charging system at a much deeper level. I don't have much confidence in this actually happening, but that's what wishes are for, right? :)
 

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Overclocker
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I'll be happy if batteries stop doing this


View attachment 363410
Some lithium batteries do that indeed when they get old. Or overcharged.

Thanks. That's a useful app, but it doesn't limit current. While I root/unlock all of my phones, I want something baked into the ROM from the OEM without root. I shouldn't have to void my warranty to preserve the life of my "non-replaceable" batteries.
I want Qualcomm(or anybody, really) to implement an advanced charging system that isn't JUST about speed. Basically something like Chargie, but better since it wouldn't need a dongle or Bluetooth pairing. I don't have much confidence in this actually happening, but that's what wishes are for, right? :)
Why does one need a chargie? Don't modern smartphones come with a limit of how much you want to charge them? Say to 80 or 90% max? So it may only CC charge but won't torture the battery for another hour with CV charging? You get less charge if that's OK with you and prolong the battery lifespan a little. Batteries last a little longer when charged not to max and not discharged to a minimum, a little.

I think I've seen it on some mobile devices long ago, maybe it was a laptop.
 

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Robotic Chemist
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I want Qualcomm(or anybody, really) to implement an advanced charging system that isn't JUST about speed.
I would really like this too. I should be able to set my phone to slow charge most of the time, I rarely need a quick charge. Quick charging is great when I do need it but most of the time my phone gets over 8h solid on the charger every night, or at least every time it gets any charging.

While new ones take much less damage when being charged quickly even the best batteries take more damage the faster they are charged, down to a very low charge rate. Of course, device longevity is not a major concern for the manufactures. A phone designed to last even five years would be amazing.

Or overcharged
That is a very classic example of overcharged. I think the reason old ones do it is because a bad charger tries to charge it up too much, because it cannot tell it is old enough that it cannot be charged that much anymore. Or getting too hot a some point.

When LiPOs were new I remember early LiPO chargers where you had to unplug the batteries in time or they would swell up until they sprayed fire. Always charge your batteries in a metal pan and avoid the smoke if one goes off. Those were not great chargers. Still, for RC airplanes LiPOs were a big enough upgrade to be worth the fire hazard. Crashes got more interesting too. LiPOs are as safe and reliable as they are due to fairly sophisticated battery state monitoring and protection circuits, and of course these circuits never have any bugs. :p

They also do that if discharged too fast, since that makes them get too hot.

Why does one need a chargie? Don't modern smartphones come with a limit of how much you want to charge them? Say to 80 or 90% max?
I don't think so? Not my S10+ anyway...

Edit:
But I don't know if this is a good idea anyway. The reason to limit the max is to prevent the max from decreasing overtime, so after 1000 charges it is down to 80% instead of 70% or so... but if you are limited to 80% from day one you are functionally pre-damaging it to prevent damage. It would take some good data and math to figure out a reasonable limit where you actually had more battery life over the entire life of the phone. You would need to slowly raise the max capacity you charged to for it to work out. I am not even sure it would work out, it isn't like even only charging between 40 and 60% causes no damage. It is probably better to worry about the other end more, get worried about power at 25% instead of 15% and try to always keep it above 20%. That way if you need it unexpectedly you do have it while still treating the battery better than always running it down completely. The low end hurts a lot too, perhaps even more.

I don't charge it if it is still above 80%, at least much of the time, but as far as the battery chemistry is concerned they already aren't at true 100% capacity. The manufacture picks what 100% means, they usually push capacity a bit but not too much on the wear/capacity curve. Usually you are already in the flatter section of the curve when reducing max capacity so you don't gain that much. Of course, it does depend, usually isn't always. :(
 

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Registered
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All in all, I like the improved efficiency and thermals, but I don't like dumping a ton of current into a "non"-replaceable battery. I wish these advanced QC5 chargers would come with a "slow charge" mode that limits charge current to 1 or 2 amps to help reduce battery degradation. Better yet, I'd like phones to have user enable-able options to limit charge current(or even charge level).
An option similar to this (see attached) at least, perhaps? This is included by default in the stock ROM with the Exynos version of my S20 Ultra. Disabling Super Fast Charging will stop it from charging at 25w and down to Fast Charging at 15w (9V/1.67A). Disabling Fast Charging will drop it down from that 15w to 10w (5V/2A).
 

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AMD Acolyte
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An option similar to this (see attached) at least, perhaps? This is included by default in the stock ROM with the Exynos version of my S20 Ultra. Disabling Super Fast Charging will stop it from charging at 25w and down to Fast Charging at 15w (9V/1.67A). Disabling Fast Charging will drop it down from that 15w to 10w (5V/2A).
Sadly, those options aren't common. They are a step in the right direction, but not exactly what I'm asking for.

Edit:
...
But I don't know if this is a good idea anyway. The reason to limit the max is to prevent the max from decreasing overtime, so after 1000 charges it is down to 80% instead of 70% or so... but if you are limited to 80% from day one you are functionally pre-damaging it to prevent damage.
...
Not exactly. As a battery ages, its internal resistance increases. As internal resistance increases, heat generation during charge/discharge is also increased, as is voltage drop under load. This is why the iPhones started limiting power(slowing down) as they age; once the batteries got too old they couldn't provide enough power without the voltage tanking, even when "fully charged". Anyone who's used an Android phone and had it suddenly shut off at 50% when they fire up a game has experienced the effects of voltage drop from high IR.

Slowing the aging process allows the batteries to maintain a lower internal resistance and this allows the phone to perform like-new for longer as well. It isn't just about run-time. After a year, the battery that's been charged to 85% it's whole life may be far more useful both in terms of run time and peak-load voltage, depending on the environment and usage habits of the owner.

Phone manufacturers don't always make the best choice for everyone. I'd like it if at least two options were given to users— a normal mode(what we have now) and a "conservative" mode, that limits both charge capacity and current to prolong battery life.

People who buy a new phone every year can live fast with the normal mode, while people like me who upgrade every 2 or 3 years could choose the "conservative" mode.
 

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Robotic Chemist
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Not exactly. As a battery ages, its internal resistance increases. As internal resistance increases, heat generation during charge/discharge is also increased, as is voltage drop under load. This is why the iPhones started limiting power(slowing down) as they age; once the batteries got too old they couldn't provide enough power without the voltage tanking, even when "fully charged". Anyone who's used an Android phone and had it suddenly shut off at 50% when they fire up a game has experienced the effects of voltage drop from high IR.
The battery circuitry should be able to handle that unless the current draw is actually over the max, or it has a bug. I think the benefits of charging to a lower voltage is pretty low with modern cells, there is a benefit but other aspects matter as much or more. For example, average temperature over the life of the cell is going to be more significant.

The option is good to have anyway, if you really don't need the full capacity it is definitely better for the cell(s) with no downside. Super useful if you usually use a wireless charger or similar 'always plugged in'. However, if it causes you to go to 10% charged instead of 30% by the end of the day it might be worse to charge to 80% instead of 100%.
 

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Registered
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Damn and i thought 30w was fast.
my retired 2015 Motorola x pure edition was a 25 watt charger. turbocharge.

I got $1,000 phone that's a 15-watt charger S10 plus slow as hell.
 

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AMD Acolyte
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my retired 2015 Motorola x pure edition was a 25 watt charger. turbocharge.

I got $1,000 phone that's a 15-watt charger S10 plus slow as hell.
The S10+ has a 36% bigger battery; even with the same charger it would take significantly longer to charge.
That said, my $280 Xiaomi MI9T came with an 18w QC3 unit and it charges plenty quick for me. The 3 extra watts make a difference.
 

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The S10+ has a 36% bigger battery; even with the same charger it would take significantly longer to charge.
That said, my $280 Xiaomi MI9T came with an 18w QC3 unit and it charges plenty quick for me. The 3 extra watts make a difference.
point is we've been using 25 watts since 2015? and it's 2020.
 

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AMD Acolyte
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point is we've been using 25 watts since 2015? and it's 2020.
In the last year or two the push has been for high battery capacity. We were in the 3000mah range for a while and now we are seeing 5000mah+ batteries hit. Generally, higher capacity battery chemistries carry the penalty of higher internal resistance, which limits charge/discharge current. It's possible these new high density batteries can't handle the 25w chargers as well as the older batteries. That might be why some devices are switching to 2-cell batteries.
 
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