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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Has the title says is there any other difference between :

Patriot Viper Steel Series DDR4 16GB (2 x 8GB) 4400MHz Performance Memory Kit (PVS416G440C9K)

Patriot Memory Viper Steel DDR4 16GB (2 x 8GB) 4000MHz Performance Memory Kit - PVS416G400C9K

I already have a 8GBx2 4400 Kit considering getting another for 4 ranks.

So is there any real / physical difference between these two kits?
From what I can see its just the XMP profiles that are different or is the 4400 a better bin?
 

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Turtle Rig Fan
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It looks like they are both bdie according to bdie finder, which is surprising since that first kit has pretty terrible timings for 4400 and the second one isn't great either.

What cpu/motherboard combo do you have? Is the first link the kit you already have?
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
It looks like they are both bdie according to bdie finder, which is surprising since that first kit has pretty terrible timings for 4400 and the second one isn't great either.

What cpu/motherboard combo do you have? Is the first link the kit you already have?
Yes those are both B-Die Kits. Its the main reason I bought them in the first place. I do have the 4400 Kit listed above 8GBX2.

The Patriot Viper Steel 4400 is actually infamous has being a "cheap" B-Die Kit and there are numerous overclocker's on this site using this exact kit.
I'm surprised you not aware of just how popular this kit is.
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Eh, this one is the one I'm familiar with. I was using it for a bit:


But to answer your question, I would just buy the same kit you already have.
 
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I guess the info at the Amazon link for the 4400 is wrong. It says 19-21-21-41, 1.35v and both 4400 and 4000.
The only Patriot 4400 I know is the PVS416G440C9K at 19-19-19-39 and 1.45v.

If you have one already, I'd say get the same one. It's the higher bin of the 2.

One more thing. You will have 2 ranks (dual rank), not 4, because we count ranks within each memory channel.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
I guess the info at the Amazon link for the 4400 is wrong. It says 19-21-21-41, 1.35v and both 4400 and 4000.
The only Patriot 4400 I know is the PVS416G440C9K at 19-19-19-39 and 1.45v.

If you have one already, I'd say get the same one. It's the higher bin of the 2.

One more thing. You will have 2 ranks (dual rank), not 4, because we count ranks within each memory channel.
You are correct the listing for the timings is wrong on Amazon. It is 4400 CL 19-19-19-39 @ 1.45V.

Yes meant 4 X single ranks lol which is Dual rank not quad rank. ;)
I'm also leaning towards paying the extra and just getting another 4400 8X2 kit than buying the 4000 which is cheaper..
 

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Patriot Viper Steel 4000 19-19-19, 4400 19-19-19, and 4000 16-16-16 are all "b-die" sticks

They also behave fairly differently;

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The 4000 19-19-19 ones have a lower maximum frequency than the other two, and potentially the weakest secondary (RRD/WTR/tFAW) throughput performance.
They seem to like RTP 7 / tWR 14 or RTP 8 / tWR 14, though some people also run RTP 7 / tWR 10

Unfortunately then I don't have hands-on experience with them, so I can't tell many funny details, but they are by far the "weakest" of the three.


preferred RTT's, something like Nom /6 (40), Wr /3 (80), Park /6 (40) (the divisor is for ""RZQ"", which is 240 ohms)
they have some wiggle-room in what RTTs they can run-run with (not all boards will do Park/6), but those seem to be their "best" performing ones
===

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The 4400 19-19-19 ones are closer to the 4000 16-16-16, as they prefer to run at insanely low procODTs and raised DRAM Input Voltage (CPU 1P8 / CPU 1.8v / CPU Standby 1.8v[?aSUS?])
They differ from the 4000 16-16-16 and 19-19-19 ones by having strange odd delay requirements,
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(AddrCmdSetup 56, AM4)
Both the 4400 19-19-19 sticks and the 4000 16-16-16 do very good secondaries at high frequencies (>= 4200 MT/s), the 4400's prefer running either RTP 7 / tWR 14 or RTP 6 / tWR 12
on Intel they have high RDWR requirements (17 at 2100 MCLK, +/- 1 each step of 100 [200 MT/s]) and require RDWR_dd to be +1 of _sg/dg/dr (e.g. 17/17/17/18)
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preferred RTT's, pretty much Nom /6 (40), Wr /3 (80), Park /5 (48) or /4 (60)
these sticks are not friendly if you don't run those exact RTT's and a very low procODT
====

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The 4000 16-16-16 sticks, on the other hand, seem to be the "simplest" to work with of the three.
On AM4 they effortlessly did 3800 14-14-14-28-42, (tRFC 252-188-116), 1T GDM Off, @ 1.50vDIMM / procODT 28.2 with no funny delays, CADBus 40-20-30-20
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something like that, didn't take screenshots (🤡), didn't experiment too much: [Official] AMD Ryzen DDR4 24/7 Memory Stability Thread
Unlike the previous two sticks, they do prefer RTP 5 / tWR 10 rather than 6/12 or 7/14.

They seem to have a lower CPU 1.8v-increase requirement - currently running procODT 24 [/15] @ 1.88v instead of 1.91v like the 4400's (guy with 4000 19-19-19's runs 1.93v for procODT 30) -
but I'm not sure how consistent this observation is.

preferred RTT's, still seem to be the Nom /6 (40), Wr /3 (80), Park /6 (40) of the 4000 19-19-19's - as those were the only ones to even boot 4600 16-16-16
but unlike the 4400 19-19-19's, they don't seem to be very temperamental about it - though they might still be cranky about higher procODT impedances, DIDN'T TEST DIDN'T CARE LOL 🤡
and unlike the 4400's, you require no weird Delays on AM4 nor LGA1700 - the entire "ODT Delay Duration Configuration" section is set to 0, and runs stable unlike the 4400's.
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On Intel, they seem to run a lower RDWR than the 4400's, as well as require (it does not negotiate) RDWR _(dr?)/dd to be -1 of _sg/_dg
RDWR still sort of scales +/- 1 each 100 MCLK
===


tl;dr

(zentimings format of rtt Nom/Wr/Park)
4000 19-19-19: rtt 6/3/6ish, procODT 30, highest cpu 1.8v(?) + rtp/twr of 7/14, 8/14, or 7/10 + flirts with CAD setup timings, unless super specific CADBus 60-20-40-20
"meh" bin (best I've seen is 4200 15-15-15-34-49 @ 1.66v)
idk about daisy good vs. bad slot preference
idk about intel RDWR behaviour

4400 19-19-19: rtt 6/3/5 or 6/3/4 or **** YOU, procODT 28.2 or lower, high cpu 1.8v(?) + rtp/twr of 7/14 or 6/12 + delays/CAD setup timings mandatory(*), CADBus 40-20-30-20(ish?)
decent bin, hits 4200 15-15-15-30-45 @ 1.62v +/- silicon lottery
works great in daisy-bad slots in a 4x8
INTEL RDWR: _dd must be +1 of sg/dg/dr

edit: (* potentially CAD 60-20-40-20 works without AddrCmdSetup 56 ?)

4000 16-16-16: rtt 6/3/6ish, procODT 28.2 or lower, lowest cpu 1.8v(?) + rtp/twr of 5/10 + no delays/cad setup timings, CADBus 40-20-30-20
actually pretty good bin (you can get better for 2-3x the price but who cares), my single reference is 4200 15-15-15-30-45 @ ~1.56v
idk about daisy good vs. bad slot preference
INTEL RDWR: _dr/_dd must be -1 of sg/dg


they're all within 20 euro of eachother, so turns out the newest of them all, 4000 16-16-16, is the one to buy buy
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
they're all within 20 euro of eachother, so turns out the newest of them all, 4000 16-16-16, is the one to buy buy
Thanks for taking the time to post all the above. Will definitely save me some time tuning when I get a Zen 3 CPU.

My current CPU doesn't really do below procODT 53.3 or 48. In fact my 1700X seems to only like 53.3 I can only do 48 below 3466MT/s
I did get some low timings to pass with a quick TM5 but not useful for daily has the performance from 14-14-14 is almost the same.

If I could get 3800 CL14 with a Zen 3 CPU that would be great. Sadly the 4000 16-16-16 kit is not available in my country and the 4400 is the best option. G.Skill is just
ridiculously overpriced here so that's not even an option.
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Weird issue I have with these Patriot B-die sticks on my system is that they will not pass TM5 without errors @ 3600 at any voltage or timings. But my Dual Rank Rev.E 32GB can do so without any problems.
Do you think the problem is with procODT? This is completely stable when tested with TM5 and Anta777 extreme.
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procODT (+ CPU 1.8v) is an extremely important setting, being the difference between "running" a dual-rank kit I had at RRD 6/12 + WTR 6/12 & tFAW 24 and RRD 4/6 + WTR 4/8 & tFAW 16 (huge improvement)
So yes - you're still getting memed on by Zen1, unfortunately.

DDR4-3600 is around the point where proper procODT + RTT becomes significant, and >3800 is usually where it is critical.
(Which is why I get the impression 6/3/6 is best on the 4000-16-16's, being able to boot 4600 16-16-16 1T isn't simple :))

The 4400's are not that much worse than the 4000 16-16-16 kit - which is very new - they are just more annoying to "make work".
Fortunately the "solution" is right there - AddrCmdSetup 56
 

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Hello
Bloax
The past two weeks I compare some settings according to your reviews and postings with my old setup and I end up with this stable setup
I have 4x8GB patriot Viper steel 4400 CL19 memory sticks
If you have some suggestions to improve that OC I'll be glad to hear.
Thank you in advance !!


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Also if you have some suggestions how can go from 3800 to 4000 or to 4200 with max 1.55v I'll be glad to hear it to.
Thanks again !!
 

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4x8 Goes up to 4200 for me with different RTT Park for different slots (e.g. CHA/D0 60, CHA/D1 48 & CHB/D0 60, CHA/D1 48) - the problem is that my memory controller does not agree with going that high with b-die 4x8.
Maybe with more "memory support" upgrades, and/or Raptor Lake 🤡


The only "improvement" beyond what you're showing that I've found is that with 1.91v AUX and procODT "[15]" (I still think that's 360/15), the 4400 sticks accept WTR_L 8 instead of 10 again, as well as tCCD_L 7 instead of 8

which is +1-2% in some things, not a lot, but more than nothing
 

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4x8 Goes up to 4200 for me with different RTT Park for different slots (e.g. CHA/D0 60, CHA/D1 48 & CHB/D0 60, CHA/D1 48) - the problem is that my memory controller does not agree with going that high with b-die 4x8.
Maybe with more "memory support" upgrades, and/or Raptor Lake 🤡


The only "improvement" beyond what you're showing that I've found is that with 1.91v AUX and procODT "[15]" (I still think that's 360/15), the 4400 sticks accept WTR_L 8 instead of 10 again, as well as tCCD_L 7 instead of 8

which is +1-2% in some things, not a lot, but more than nothing
you have the I7 I have the I9 if I am correct
you have the pro and I have the tomahawk but both motherboards have the same memory controller
and you run different RTT park because you have different memories 2 patriot 4000 and two 4400
is worth it to go for a 4.2 ?
because I know with this I need more voltage on memory
 

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Voltage isn't really a concern unless you can't plaster an Arctic P14 fan to rest directly on the memory, as the heat-traps are very easily removed.
My only guess is that different park terminations are good because people have had a lot of trouble running mixed 4x8's on AM4, maybe it's fine to have the same for non-mixed PCBs.


What is a concern is that the only way I've been able to go past 3866 on 4x8, is through the 29x133 memory multiplier plus BCLK - 100 BCLK doesn't want to do 39x100 or 30x133, (edit: or anything higher.)
 

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Voltage isn't really a concern unless you can't plaster an Arctic P14 fan to rest directly on the memory, as the heat-traps are very easily removed.
My only guess is that different park terminations are good because people have had a lot of trouble running mixed 4x8's on AM4, maybe it's fine to have the same for non-mixed PCBs.


What is a concern is that the only way I've been able to go past 3866 on 4x8, is through the 29x133 memory multiplier plus BCLK - 100 BCLK doesn't want to do 39x100 or 30x133, (edit: or anything higher.)

to keep normal temperatures on this memorys is not issues for me as you see in the picture existing fan very close to them


Wood Gas Technology Machine Electrical wiring


couple months before I was also on 3866 and was more easily to train 29x133
now I am on 3800 full stable and I am very happy with my results
looking forward I'm thinking about 4000 or 4200 G1
 

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4x8 Goes up to 4200 for me with different RTT Park for different slots (e.g. CHA/D0 60, CHA/D1 48 & CHB/D0 60, CHA/D1 48) - the problem is that my memory controller does not agree with going that high with b-die 4x8.
Maybe with more "memory support" upgrades, and/or Raptor Lake 🤡


The only "improvement" beyond what you're showing that I've found is that with 1.91v AUX and procODT "[15]" (I still think that's 360/15), the 4400 sticks accept WTR_L 8 instead of 10 again, as well as tCCD_L 7 instead of 8

which is +1-2% in some things, not a lot, but more than nothing

Someone refuses to embrace this change !!!! :cool::cool::cool::cool:


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Someone refuses to embrace this change !!!! :cool::cool::cool::cool:
Those settings are mostly cosmetic - to reduce WTR_L, you reduce tWRRD_sg 🤡
 

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Those settings are mostly cosmetic - to reduce WTR_L, you reduce tWRRD_sg 🤡

so now who refused the BIOS or the Dragon Ball ?
that was the main reason we're staying on WTR_L 10
 
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