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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've been using a 3500 DPI G400 for the past year or two. I never liked the shape, but it seemed like the best sensor I could find with a native 800 DPI step that was still in production. I had been anxious to get a mouse with the same sensor but better shape, so I picked up a Roccat Savu months ago. Immediately after plugging it in, I noticed the sensor felt terrible, even though it was supposed to be the exact same sensor. I could not hit the side of a barn in FPS games with this mouse or in RTS type games like League of Legends (was Gold 2 at the time).

It only took playing with the mouse for a few minutes to figure out it had insanely high smoothing applied to it, so high that I had never encountered any mouse like it before. I used the mouse for less than one day before tossing it in the closet while thinking it was just some Roccat Germans having no idea what they're doing and applying some kind of post process smoothing to the mouse.

Next I picked up a Krait 2013. It uses the same sensor as the 6400 DPI Deathadder 2013. Soon as I plugged the mouse in, I notice it has even worse smoothing/lag than the Roccat Savu. I used this thing for about 2 hours before tossing it in the closet because it was completely unbearable, just like the Savu. Many other people have also posted the exact same feelings about Deathadder 2013 in that the mouse is unbearable to use due to the smoothing/lag. Such a thing does not belong on a gaming mouse period.

Today I just got a Kana V2. I really should have known better by now. The second I plug it in, I notice the exact same smoothing/lag as the Roccat Savu. The two mice feel virtually the same. The problem is obviously the Avago 4000 DPI firmware and it's horrific level of mouse smoothing. Now my Kana V2 is sitting in the mouse graveyard as well.

I've used just about every gaming mouse sensor from the original MLT04, to most everything Avago makes:

ADNS-3070
ADNS-3080
ADNS-3090
ADNS-3050
ADNS-S3668
ADNS- 3888

I always thought the original Diamondback 3G sensor was the best sensor I've used. The Avago 3090 3500 DPI revision almost as good, but just not quite as snappy. The level of smoothing used on the 3500 DPI ROM is right around the absolute highest you can set, without it being a real hindrance to performance.

The only way the 4000 DPI ROM can be fixed is to release a firmware update with the same or preferably lower amount of smoothing as the 3500 DPI version.

As it stands right now, any mouse that uses this current ROM is useless for anything but an F- grade gamer.
 

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I agree that we should have firmware with lower dpi but saying that these mice without it are useless for anything but an F- grade gamer is just a joke, take a look around dude there's plenty of people using the new Rival and Deathadder 2013 that love it and have aim like gods and to be fair alot of these people don't even notice the smoothing.
 

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the best description using google i can find for mouse smoothing is:
"Mouse smoothing smooths the input of the mouse between pulses (ball mice mostly due to the low resolution input). What happens is that when there's a gap between a pulse you tend to get a slight jerky movement on the screen. When you use mouse smooth then movement is always smooth but because it fills in an interpolated pulse (not a real pulse), it gives an acceleration initially (the pulses are slower at first thus the interpolation pulse is slower) and then gets the mouse up to speed. "

so basically you're saying the delay before it notices your movement is too great?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by superior View Post

take a look around dude there's plenty of people using the new Rival and Deathadder 2013 that love it and have aim like gods and to be fair alot of these people don't even notice the smoothing.
They don't notice the smoothing even though the same smoothing was added to the Avago 9800 laser and people immediately noticed and I believe they even released a firmware fix for it? All I demand is the same firmware fix for the 4000 DPI Avago 3090 optical.

I got a G600 for free and immediately noticed it on there as well. Here's some Logitech guy talking about how they released the G500s (same sensor as G600), with 45ms input lag lol:

http://forums.logitech.com/t5/G-series-Gaming-Mice/UPDATED-Note-to-G500s-users-from-Ehtisham-the-GM-of-Logitech-G/td-p/1053433

The quality assurance people at these so called "gaming" mouse companies must all be high on drugs to release such bad products. It amazes me someone didn't put their foot down and say, huh, we can't release this 4000 DPI 3090 firmware, this is a piece of trash. Same thing with the 8200 DPI Avago 9800 laser firmware.
 

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What do you define as "smoothing"? Are we talking only about input lag? Like with the Zowie 450 CPI setting?

Have you tried using the 800 setting on the Kana v2? They say it is a "native" setting. It is the closes thing to the hardware.

My original Diamondback (1600 CPI) didn't feel laggy even though it was using 125Hz. I never used it on anything but 125Hz. It is still one of my more favored mice. Sure it has a shape that can be improved and it does have heavy angle snapping.

All Avago/PixArt sensors should have a true native to hardware setting. After they have that "raw" setting they can add other settings that less demanding players will use. Then everyone will be happy. I don't know if that is what the Rival is doing or not, I hope it does.

You know the Zowie mice use the 1800 SROM. If you cannot change your sensitivity in-game to fit you, the 2300+ CPI is to much to use. The mouse feels a lot better using the 2300 setting.
 

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Recon has never jittered for me on any plain black cloth pad. Certainly no unbearable nausea inducing jitter. Maybe a defective mouse that you had.
 

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I would like to clarify that most will not have an issue with the 4k DPI A3090 SROM. r0ach goes to extreme lengths to make sure his computer has the lowest amount of external and post processing possible.

Reposting :
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylit

Smoothing might not be the best term (not really what's happening), but I suppose that best explains it in a coined fashion. Latency delay or perceived feel can be compensated with frame rate modification, though architecture would inherently need to be capable of higher/lower FR value(s).

Outside of possible IPS increase due to higher frames per second, certain tracking code parameters can dictate updates. Frame rate while larger may feel better or worse than alternative SROM implementations of sensor or sensor architectures in general.

A6010 model used to have specific update parameters that could be set to increase or decrease effective precision as a trade off for response. This was in addition to boosted FR (7080/7200) vs previous LED architecture; based off of (3060-3090 core hardware). Should be something like this similar for modern devices.
I also wouldn't readily compare Deathadder 4G to Rival. These mice are bit different in terms of SROM and hardware capability, even compared to both A3090 models.

My view point: Mass market won't even realize unless told- similar to 9500's acceleration. I personally consider interpolated/extrapolated devices to feel worse than a mice using native registries, regardless of delayed feel. - I suppose both can be considered a mental block in the long run
biggrin.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyujmn
The smoothing must be what I just experienced with a CM Storm Recon I tried out. Horrible jitters when I would start/stop the mouse movement and just terrible tracking too. The jittering whenever I would move was so bad that I actually got dizzy while gaming. It was horrible.
That would be an opposite effect to what the specific algorithm modification and timing implements.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by r0ach View Post

I've been using............... SNIP
Try updating your Kana v2 firmware with SS' updater.

Also LoL is not a RTS its a MOBA.

Personally I think you exaggerate this a ton. The kana is definitely not anywhere near as "smoothed out" as the krait is, especially with the firmware update, and I find neither to be game breaking. I'm an ex CS semi pro and top masters league SC2 on EU, so not like a bonafide full-time pro gamer or anything, but I still think my accuracy with a mouse is much better than 99.999%+ of gamers out there.

as with all things YMMV.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by viowastaken View Post

Try updating your Kana v2 firmware with SS' updater.
Already did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by viowastaken View Post

The kana is definitely not anywhere near as "smoothed out" as the krait is, especially with the firmware update, and I find neither to be game breaking.
It depends what type of movement style you use. If you use slow, panning movements, then the excessive smoothing shouldn't bother you a ton and might even work well. On the other hand, people such as myself that use almost entirely "flick shots" for moving the mouse anywhere, even browsing the internet, get crazy annoyed by any kind of smoothing whatsoever. It just doesn't work with that movement style at all.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by r0ach View Post

Already did.
It depends what type of movement style you use. If you use slow, panning movements, then the excessive smoothing shouldn't bother you a ton and might even work well. On the other hand, people such as myself that use almost entirely "flick shots" for moving the mouse anywhere, even browsing the internet, get crazy annoyed by any kind of smoothing whatsoever. It just doesn't work with that movement style at all.
That's fine, I respect your opinion.
I also do quite a lot of very snappy movement, and the biggest thing to me is that the cursor moves to the place Iit feels like I'm moving it. I feel like the kana v2 does that very well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by viowastaken View Post

I feel like the kana v2 does that very well.
If I have the mouse cursor in the middle of the screen with G400 3500 DPI firmware (800 DPI / 1000hz), I can flick the cursor to the top right of the Chromium browser window and land it on the tiny bookmarks link of the browser at 2560x1440 with one, fast hand movement. We're talking basically instantaneous here. If I try that same fast movement with the Kana v2, it's hard to land the cursor even anywhere near the small bookmarks box. That's how bad flick shot accuracy is destroyed by the excessive smoothing in 4000 DPI firmware.

It almost feels like the cursor hits negative acceleration and just doesn't make it there. I'm pretty sure it's not hitting negative acceleration, but that's the closest way to describe it. The smoothing just dulls down any kind of quick response accuracy and relegates all movements to "slow panning" if you want to try to be accurate.

edit: Anyone know how much of a feat it would require to get a 3500 DPI 3090 firmware flashed onto the V2? Preferably the one with a native 800 DPI step and not the 3500 firmware that halves counts from 1800 to 900.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by r0ach View Post

edit: Anyone know how much of a feat it would require to get a 3500 DPI 3090 firmware flashed onto the V2? Preferably the one with a native 800 DPI step and not the 3500 firmware that halves counts from 1800 to 900.
That will not happen for multiple reasons.
 

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if no production mice works with your aiming style, maybe how you aim needs to change, not how mice are made.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atavax View Post

if no production mice works with your aiming style, maybe how you aim needs to change, not how mice are made.
I'm also more inclined towards this.

Like complaining having the throttle pedal in the right end instead of the left end is wrong and they should reverse them... Maybe it's time you get used to having it in the right?
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atavax View Post

if no production mice works with your aiming style, maybe how you aim needs to change, not how mice are made.
Ridiculous reply, especially when you read my above comment. When high levels of smoothing or prediction are not a positive feature to gaming mice as evidenced by past history of reasons for why people liked sensors such as the MLT04 or Deathadder 3g, please explain how just magically dropping a bunch of smoothing onto a sensor has any objective benefit to a gaming mouse? There is nothing subjective about it.

No one in the history of the universe has ever picked up a MLT04 or Deathadder 3g and said the words "oh, this mouse would be nice only if they could drastically increase the level mouse smoothing and possibly make the cursor feel a little more less responsive, sloppy and laggy too".

When you acknowledge these issues as general truths of gaming mice, you can easily say the 4000 DPI firmware is objectively worse than the 3500 DPI one.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by r0ach View Post

No one in the history of the universe has ever picked up a MLT04 or Deathadder 3g and said the words "oh, this mouse would be nice only if they could drastically increase the level mouse smoothing and possibly make the cursor feel a little more less responsive, sloppy and laggy too".

When you acknowledge these issues as general truths of gaming mice, you can easily say the 4000 DPI firmware is objectively worse than the 3500 DPI one.
So why are mice manufacturers making objectively inferior mice compared to what they used to make? I am not denying that they are inferior. I think which mice are inferior and superior is not relevant. Either you can magically make mainstream consumers appreciate the finer details that you desire or you can adapt an aiming style that modern mice can support.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nivity View Post

As it stands right now, any mouse that uses this current ROM is useless for anything but an F- grade gamer.

I guess all progamers in the world are F-grade gamers.
Typical average gamers thinking they need the absolut perfect everything for their casual gaming
biggrin.gif


But I guess the real progamers that actually make money will keep on going being F- grade gamers, works for all the progamers in the world It seems, why change
wink.gif


People can keep chasing the PERFECT everything thinking it will make them immortal, to bad the mouse won't make you a progamer
biggrin.gif
You can look at that idea in different ways.

If you spend a bunch of money to play games why not have the best experience you can get? You're not tied to a contract that requires you to play with sponsor provided products. You can be competitive whilst not being a Pro competing in tournaments. So why can't a consumer demand a better product that will increase their fun during gaming?

As a Pro you make the best out of what you can get. Some times people will have the better gear or vice versa. You have to adapt and try to maintain some consistency. You can say performing well under those types of situations is what being a Pro is about. Being able to play at a high skill level regardless of circumstances. That being said, I define a Pro gamer as such if they get paid enough to live off of gaming.

A lot of people can play very well when they are using their setups at home, but they fail big when they play at a tournament with a different setup. Considering that, I tried to have my home setup similar to what you'd use at a tournament. Things like: no comfortable chair, very little space, low graphical settings, lower resolution, using different mice, different keyboards, only headphones, not installing software, using mouse pads as cushions, etc. Now that I am not into the competitive aspect anymore I don't try to do all those things. If I have a great performing mouse, a mouse pad I like, quality headphones and a good keyboard, I am content... This is why I am more picky about stuff I use these days. I just want nice performing products that I can enjoy for a long time (as I have to pay for them myself).
 
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