[Smanci]

I wonder if Lian Li sells separately their riser cable bundled with the PC-O5S-case? Should be quality stuff.

 

[Runamok81]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smanci

I wonder if Lian Li sells separately their riser cable bundled with the PC-O5S-case? Should be quality stuff.

Have a link to Lian Li's cable? I've been shopping PCIe risers lately. Of course there is the 3M, but overclock.net member b16984901 has posted a link their test of LiHeat's PCIe cable and listed it for sale on LiHeat on ebay, but no takers. It's also on the Ruten site here.

If the foil/vinyl proves unstable or troublesome, then I might give LiHeat's cable a run. .

 

[frack0]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runamok81

Will do on the pics. For the risers, I wasn't using the true $100 3M riser cables. On a hunch, I 3M foil wrapped and vinyl'd a set of daisy-chained generics. This worked like a charm, and I didn't think much of it. During this last reverse course, I tested different lengths, positions, and shielding and came to think more of it.

Using a single un-shielded 200mm or 300mm gave me no issues. Good boot, good performance. As soon as I removed the GPU out of the case and ran two naked daisy chained ribbons, no boot. I quickly added some shielding to the ribbons, tried again, and I got boot! But, HDMI audio was distorted and frame rates plunged, basically unplayable. Pretty interesting, really. Geeked out for a bit trying different combinations, checking the solder points.

Only then did I do a more thorough reading of Show4Pro's experience with risers and EMI interference. He's already done the research and testing on this.
here
here
here

In short, I witnessed the same thing. I agree, EMI interference is not a myth! Having the PCIe riser ribbons protected from interference (inside the steel case / foil wrapped / not doubled over one another) made a difference.

To help the riser routing - and because I can't use the standard right handed 90 degree risers - I called up SuperMicro and placed an order for the only left hand side riser I could fine. The RSC-R1UFF-E16 risers. You can see it on this page. Maybe they will help?

Nice build.

Though the foil wraps work to some degree for external interference it is not the same as what 3M is doing in their riser which effectively has an impedance controlled, grounded and shielded twin-axial path for each signal. If you could ground the foil it might work a bit better though results may vary quite a bit as it's not an ideal situation to begin with as it's difficult to wrap right to the connector. When you daisy chain riser cables, each connector is an impedance change/discontinuity and will cause a signal reflection which interferes with the propagating signal so things get progressively worse down the line. Foil will only buy you so much there and will not affect reflections. When you see this affect on signals it's amazing anything works.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-domain_reflectometer

 

[Runamok81]

Quote:

Originally Posted by frack0

Nice build.

Though the foil wraps work to some degree for external interference it is not the same as what 3M is doing in their riser which effectively has an impedance controlled, grounded and shielded twin-axial path for each signal. If you could ground the foil it might work a bit better though results may vary quite a bit as it's not an ideal situation to begin with as it's difficult to wrap right to the connector. When you daisy chain riser cables, each connector is an impedance change/discontinuity and will cause a signal reflection which interferes with the propagating signal so things get progressively worse down the line. Foil will only buy you so much there and will not affect reflections. When you see this affect on signals it's amazing anything works.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-domain_reflectometer

Let's start his out by saying, I'm not an electrical engineers. But I know a few, so that helps. The impedance issue can be solved by using one-long riser, correct? No extra interconnects. The grounding issue isn't completely solved but is mitigated by anchoring the foiled riser to the steel case. So, that leaves us with the EMI shielding issue we observed. I have no doubt that 3M Twin Axial cable would solve my problems, but is it overkill? 3M describes the shielding properties of their plain old foil tape as this
Quote:

Many factors determine the true shielding effectiveness of a shielding tape, including type
and thickness of foil, adhesive type, intimacy of contact, smoothness of application
surface, strength and frequency of the EMI signal, etc. However, using standard tests and
fixtures, it is possible to determine a value for the attenuation. For 1345 tape, typical
shielding effectiveness (far field) is in the range of 75dB to 95dB (30 MHz to 1 GHz).

In addition we two instances of anecdotal evidence suggesting that regular foil -Show4Pro - and tin foil tape - myself - works. We have none suggesting it doesn't. I'm not going to take it that far,this is a PC modding and overclocking community... but has anyone actually used the -amazing name by the way - TIme domain reflectometer to do a quantitative analysis and comparison? Till then, why underestimate tin foil wrap? It could be perfectly suited for this application.

Edit: Also thank you frack0 for the scientific discussion and advice. You're obviously knowledgeable. Just continuing the conversation the best a layman can.

 

[Reindoonicorn]

Wow, haven't seen LiHeat's cable before. Their 'R-type' riser is actually the kind I need for my own project. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Reindoonicorn]

On the subject of Lian Li's bundled riser, I contacted them to find out whether they sell them separately.

 

[Runamok81]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reindoonicorn

On the subject of Lian Li's bundled riser, I contacted them to find out whether they sell them separately.

Thank you sir. Have any photos?

 

[Reindoonicorn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runamok81

Thank you sir. Have any photos?

Photos of what? If you mean their response, they haven't replied yet!

If you mean the riser, obviously I haven't got one yet, but here are some review pics:

 

[frack0]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runamok81

Let's start his out by saying, I'm not an electrical engineers. But I know a few, so that helps. The impedance issue can be solved by using one-long riser, correct? No extra interconnects. The grounding issue isn't completely solved but is mitigated by anchoring the foiled riser to the steel case. So, that leaves us with the EMI shielding issue we observed. I have no doubt that 3M Twin Axial cable would solve my problems, but is it overkill? 3M describes the shielding properties of their plain old foil tape as this
In addition we two instances of anecdotal evidence suggesting that regular foil -Show4Pro - and tin foil tape - myself - works. We have none suggesting it doesn't. I'm not going to take it that far,this is a PC modding and overclocking community... but has anyone actually used the -amazing name by the way - TIme domain reflectometer to do a quantitative analysis and comparison? Till then, why underestimate tin foil wrap? It could be perfectly suited for this application.

Edit: Also thank you frack0 for the scientific discussion and advice. You're obviously knowledgeable. Just continuing the conversation the best a layman can.

I think you misunderstood my original post a bit, as I said the foil wrap will help with EMI especially if you can ground it like you're apparently doing with the steel case(it appeared from photo that the electrical tape might have wrapped it but perhaps it just goes over it. It just won't help with reflections. I actually am an electrical engineer and have had to deal with this in the past connecting two computers over 10ft of 100-pin flat shielded ribbon cable(and circuits on both sides), now I just deal with ASICs though similar issues exist both on chip and especially in the packaging thru wire bonds, flip-chip bumps, TSVs, Cu pillars.

The less connectors the better, the reflections do not just occur just in one direction or just one time, so between each set of connectors you set up a ping-pong sort of condition in between with signals bouncing back and forth(though there is loss in amplitude each time they reflect so it decays out after a few).

 

[Runamok81]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reindoonicorn

Photos of what? If you mean their response, they haven't replied yet!

If you mean the riser, obviously I haven't got one yet, but here are some review pics:

Yes, the riser. Ha ha. Oh, man... is that the PC-05S? It's not out till February and the price is ALOT to swallow, but just wow. Sexy case. Just saw a Techspot review of it today. Can't tell what they are using for a riser but it does look vinyl wrapped.

 

[Reindoonicorn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runamok81

Yes, the riser. Ha ha. Oh, man... is that the PC-05S? It's not out till February and the price is ALOT to swallow, but just wow. Sexy case. Just saw a Techspot review of it today. Can't tell what they are using for a riser but it does look vinyl wrapped.

Yeah, you and Smanci were discussing it and its riser earlier, I believe.

And yes, it does have that Lian Li class, doesn't it!

 

[Runamok81]

Ah, I honestly I didn't look up the case that Smanci mentioned. I should've. That PC-05 and PC-05S is hot news. Very classy and it uses the same CPU / GPU orientation as Little Mac. Probably a lot less of a knuck-buster too.

 

[Reindoonicorn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runamok81

Ah, I honestly I didn't look up the case that Smanci mentioned. I should've. That PC-05 and PC-05S is hot news. Very classy and it uses the same CPU / GPU orientation as Little Mac. Probably a lot less of a knuck-buster too.

It's also just under 20L...

Only just "SFF" then!

 

[DMatthewStewart]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runamok81

Big update. It's alive!

Little Mac had first startup today.

This is just great. Its inspired me to finally do an HTPC. Quick question, I was actually thinking of building one for my parents but do you think it could actively act as their central storage as well? Could it be their main hard drive/computer? I lied, because here comes a second question. Any good resources for strictly htpc builds that you could recommend? I find cheesy how-to's al the time but Id like to find a good dedicated forum that covers every possible in-and-out

 

[Runamok81]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DMatthewStewart

This is just great. Its inspired me to finally do an HTPC. Quick question, I was actually thinking of building one for my parents but do you think it could actively act as their central storage as well? Could it be their main hard drive/computer? I lied, because here comes a second question. Any good resources for strictly htpc builds that you could recommend? I find cheesy how-to's al the time but Id like to find a good dedicated forum that covers every possible in-and-out

For building your own you'll need to be somewhat comfortable working on them, and that comes with experience and making lots of mistakes. The case in this thread is pretty extreme. The 4.2L size dictates everything and makes it very challenging. Of course, bragging rights if you can pull it off!

Best places for information? This forum and [H]ardFoum are great for Q and A on bleeding edge and experimental builds. I think Reddit's buildapc has a supportive community. Those guys will steer you right. I'll probably post my build there when it's done. For your case have you considered the Silverstone Raven RVZ01 / ML07 / ML08 / FTZ01. That's a larger case, but much friendlier and could accommodate the HDD spaced you may be need. Check the owner's club, good info there, and active.

Edit: To further address... for strictly HTPC builds? Noise is a big concern. Gaming rigs tend to end up sounding like a vacuum cleaner in the background of quiet movie dialogue. Check SPCR and the forums. I've tried watercooling and even the pumps were too loud for HTPC case. Honestly, the NUC I am currently using is perfect for an HTPC. It just can't game. But it is whisper quiet, does 1080P, office etc.. and they have one where you can add additional HDD space.

 

[Runamok81]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reindoonicorn

It's also just under 20L...

Only just "SFF" then!

Still counts!

 

[DMatthewStewart]

Thanks @Runamok

I like those Silverstone cases and I will take all of your suggestions, start bookmarking the proper pages, and let my brain melt. I think I am going to have to really finish my acrylic conversions and proper cable management projects before I take the HTPC thing on. It seems that its going to be more involved that I originally thought.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Runamok81

For building your own you'll need to be somewhat comfortable working on them, and that comes with experience and making lots of mistakes. (SNIPPED)

 

[Runamok81]

Yeah, I noticed your non-newb history after I started making a response. Apologies. You're obviously experienced. In short, any normal PC is an HTPC once you move it to the living room and connect the TV. Genre specific concerns are noise, integration (AV connections), installation (hidden or need to look like audio gear?) The Logitech K400 is a great lapable keyboard /trackpad combination. Also, text on Windows can be an issue. Up the DPI to 150% and either bigger TV or move closer. Alternately use apps with 10-foot interfaces, XBMC / PLEX / Netflix.

 

[Jimbags]

Jus to talking about the risers again. I used a generic cheap ebay one wrapped in aluminium foil and clear cellotape. It works fine. Its even doubled over(very slim case). Using it with the galaxy slim 750ti.

 

[iFreilicht]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runamok81

To help the riser routing - and because I can't use the standard right handed 90 degree risers - I called up SuperMicro and placed an order for the only left hand side riser I could fine. The RSC-R1UFF-E16 risers. You can see it on this page. Maybe they will help?

There's also this one: http://www.delock.de/produkte/F_380_PCIe-x16_41788/merkmale.html

And the li heat risers seem to be of quite good quality. They might be something to consider! Also it seems like they're sold with a left angle, so you won't have to worry about the bend so much.