Overclock.net banner

1 - 13 of 13 Posts

·
Banned
Joined
·
15,763 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
A big challenge for the EV and renewable energy revolution is that the much-needed batteries are made from lithium, a relatively rare and pricey metal. Rather than focusing on other metals like magnesium, a team of scientists from RMIT University in Melbourne have figured it out to build rechargeable "proton" batteries from abundant carbon and water. If commercialized, the technology could allow for cheaper Powerwall-type home or grid storage to back up solar panels or windmills..
Source
 

·
Needs more voltage
Joined
·
503 Posts
Your avatar pretty much describes how I feel about this
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,745 Posts

·
Overclocker
Joined
·
11,637 Posts
Isn't cobalt in lower availability than lithium? Where lithium only gets talked about because it's a popular buzz word now?
There is more to lithium based batteries than just lithium.

They need to note the performance, weight needed and available (discovered to be mined) for each material used and compare it with existing batteries. Otherwise it's just yet another speculative battery research project, there are dozens of them.
 

·
Original 16-bit Genesis®
Joined
·
1,756 Posts
Wat? Lithium isn't rare (and upcoming battery tech doesn't even need Cobalt). There was recent advancements in Graphene(aka Carbon), but its just as elusive as this new battery process.
 

·
Frequency is Megabytes
Joined
·
2,997 Posts
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360319918302714
https://www.researchgate.net/public...on_battery_with_an_activated_carbon_electrode

#1
---
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/03/180307153947.htm

#2
---
https://www.rmit.edu.au/news/newsro...ert-comments/2018/mar/all-power-to-the-proton

#3
---
~Breakthrough proton battery prototype stores energy efficiently~ => https://www.power-technology.com/ne...-battery-prototype-stores-energy-efficiently/
Researchers from the Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology (RMIT) developed a proton-powered battery prototype that’s more efficient and less environmentally damaging than existing lithium-ion batteries.


The paper titled ‘Technical feasibility of a proton battery with an activated carbon electrode’ was published in the International Journal of Hydrogen Energy. It reports that a proton battery with a carbon-based electrode will contribute to ‘meeting the gargantuan demand for electrical energy storage that will arise with the global shift to zero greenhouse emission’.

“The proton battery is one among many potential contributors towards meeting this enormous demand for energy storage. Powering batteries with protons has the potential to be more economical than using lithium ions, which are made from scare resources,” said lead researcher Professor John Andrews.

“Carbon, which is the primary resource used in our proton battery, is abundant and cheap compared to both metal hydrogen-storage alloys, and the lithium needed for rechargeable lithium-ion batteries.”

The battery features a carbon electrode and a reversible fuel cell which enables the battery to be rechargeable. When charged, water is split in the reversible fuel cell to produce hydrogen. The hydrogen is then conducted through a cell membrane to bond with storage material with the aid of electrons supplied by the applied voltage.

When the battery is supplying electricity, this process is reversed; hydrogen atoms are released from storage and lose an electron to become protons once more, where they pass through the cell membrane and combine with oxygen and electrons from the external circuit to re-form water.

This process does not burn carbon or produce greenhouse emissions, unlike fossil fuel-powered sources. Carbon is also a more abundant and cheaply available resource than metal, hydrogen and lithium-based battery materials.

The prototype battery was able to store as much energy per unit mass as commercially available lithium-ion batteries, despite having an active surface area of only 5.5cm2, smaller than an Australian 20c coin. This is before the battery had been optimised.

“Our latest advance is a crucial step towards cheap, sustainable proton batteries that can help meet our future energy needs without further damaging our already fragile environment,” Andrews said. “As the world moves towards inherently variable renewable energy to reduce greenhouse emissions and tackle climate change, requirements for electrical energy storage will be gargantuan.”

The team named household storage from solar panels and larger scale storage on electricity grids as potential uses for the technology, and Andrews quoted 1kWh-10kWh as a possible scale for a commercial battery system. Yet he is also aware that scaling the technology could provide a challenge.

“A key challenge in scaling up the storage capacity will be the form the carbon electrode will take, either in a single cell or in a stack of cells,” said Andrews.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,981 Posts
Sounds great for stationary setups but probably too heavy to be deployed in cars.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,713 Posts
I'm waiting to see how Hiroshimay it's failure state is.

I think the big problem with all these battery-only cars is that the concept is stupid: We have small engine systems that are far more environmentally efficient than using Li-Ion charged off the grid. The problem is that nations aren't willing to fight the car manufacturers or adopt far more advanced requirements for vehicle construction. A car company can't sell a customer a new carbon fiber car every six years because the damned things last sixty years so they don't make them.

The hybrid systems, if you use a quick-start high efficiency charging engine instead of a "battery ran out main engine" are far far more fuel efficient than the current Prius style "lets strap a garbage engine on to appease idiots". A small composite turbocharged dual-injection engine to charge the battery under controlled conditions such as "at work" and "long lights" can achieve 'mileage' results in the 90+ mpg range and can be run beside recharge locations.

Imagine if your regenerative braking system was backed by an instant-on charging system that could slip right in and pump your batteries up at 2x the discharge rate. You'd have unlimited city driving in traffic until you ran out of fuel AND battery.

The real problem here is what a car actually is: Its a one and a half ton safety device to protect idiots from morons. If we cut the weight in half we could nearly double the acceleration efficiency.
 

·
Eh, Wha?
Joined
·
9,940 Posts
I'm waiting to see how Hiroshimay it's failure state is.

I think the big problem with all these battery-only cars is that the concept is stupid: We have small engine systems that are far more environmentally efficient than using Li-Ion charged off the grid. The problem is that nations aren't willing to fight the car manufacturers or adopt far more advanced requirements for vehicle construction. A car company can't sell a customer a new carbon fiber car every six years because the damned things last sixty years so they don't make them.

The hybrid systems, if you use a quick-start high efficiency charging engine instead of a "battery ran out main engine" are far far more fuel efficient than the current Prius style "lets strap a garbage engine on to appease idiots". A small composite turbocharged dual-injection engine to charge the battery under controlled conditions such as "at work" and "long lights" can achieve 'mileage' results in the 90+ mpg range and can be run beside recharge locations.

Imagine if your regenerative braking system was backed by an instant-on charging system that could slip right in and pump your batteries up at 2x the discharge rate. You'd have unlimited city driving in traffic until you ran out of fuel AND battery.

The real problem here is what a car actually is: Its a one and a half ton safety device to protect idiots from morons. If we cut the weight in half we could nearly double the acceleration efficiency.
This is exactly why self driving cars can't come soon enough, and if anything, should be mandated. The sooner said morons are removed from the equation, the sooner we can start working on practical advancements to what is frankly the biggest infrastructure bottleneck of the modern era.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
233 Posts
A proton is nothing more than a hydrogen atom minus an electron. In a sense this is an alternative to nickel hydride (metal hydride) batteries that replaced NiCd batteries back in the 1990's. When researchers start talking about the potential of graphene before they have commercialized a technology, don't plan on a breakthrough in the immediate future. Most of the graphene technologies require at least 100's of tons of large area graphene sheets a year to make a difference.

Nice research footnote.
 

·
Original 16-bit Genesis®
Joined
·
1,756 Posts
A car company can't sell a customer a new carbon fiber car every six years because the damned things last sixty years so they don't make them.

And here I thought it was because completely automated Carbon Fiber construction wasn't as efficient and cost prohibitive for materials. Companies are still waiting for the short fall issues to be solved.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
8,233 Posts
I'm waiting to see how Hiroshimay it's failure state is.

I think the big problem with all these battery-only cars is that the concept is stupid: We have small engine systems that are far more environmentally efficient than using Li-Ion charged off the grid. The problem is that nations aren't willing to fight the car manufacturers or adopt far more advanced requirements for vehicle construction. A car company can't sell a customer a new carbon fiber car every six years because the damned things last sixty years so they don't make them.

The hybrid systems, if you use a quick-start high efficiency charging engine instead of a "battery ran out main engine" are far far more fuel efficient than the current Prius style "lets strap a garbage engine on to appease idiots". A small composite turbocharged dual-injection engine to charge the battery under controlled conditions such as "at work" and "long lights" can achieve 'mileage' results in the 90+ mpg range and can be run beside recharge locations.

Imagine if your regenerative braking system was backed by an instant-on charging system that could slip right in and pump your batteries up at 2x the discharge rate. You'd have unlimited city driving in traffic until you ran out of fuel AND battery.

The real problem here is what a car actually is: Its a one and a half ton safety device to protect idiots from morons. If we cut the weight in half we could nearly double the acceleration efficiency.
Cost...

And the Prius system really isn't that bad... The way the transmission works is by far more reliable than most(using two electric motors that pretty much lock up at speed for efficiency vs torque converter/trans), and the small engine is designed to work at its peak efficiency. Thing is, it is designed to be cheap! Toyota may not sell it for cheap, but it is a pretty basic design. Other than the battery the car is not crazy expensive to build.. They know people will pay.

Superchargers/Turbo Chargers are not cheap. And they also are more likely to break... Pretty much why you don't use them used more often.

I could totally make do with current electric vehicles... Range is not a problem. If I need to go further, I can take the jeep..


Once you make a battery that can last even longer and/or charge even quicker, Battery only vehicles will have zero problems. Hell I go nearly 2 weeks on a tank of gas, 300-400 miles. Largely cause I live close to work. A Tesla can already do 300 miles... Problem is cost with these vehicles IMO. The battery system are just too costly. But the concept is not stupid. You are pretty much saving space by not having the engine, space that can be used for more battery.... If you don't need to do more than 300+ miles in a single trip, or unwilling to take such a trip with long charge times. Don't buy them.... These are better for the people that drive to and from work every day and would rather take their rav4 or F150 on long distance trips...


Sure you can make a hybrid more efficient for more $$, but what really needs to happen it more Trucks and SUV's need these options... I personally see no reason to own a car other than for fuel cost savings or for fun(mx-5 anyone)... They are small and mostly useless for anything other than getting to and from work. Horrible for family life. And for the Midwest winter's nothing can beat a real 4wd system. I would love a good hybrid system in a truck that don't cost a crazy amount of money. This is where the real focus needs to be. As a Hybrid system with a super efficient TurboCharged 4banger in a truck/SUV would do nicely. I'm guessing that they are mostly just waiting on improved battery tech to make this happen. As I would love to get more than 18-20mpg in one of those, or simply just go to and from work on battery only.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,312 Posts
I'm waiting to see how Hiroshimay it's failure state is.

I think the big problem with all these battery-only cars is that the concept is stupid: We have small engine systems that are far more environmentally efficient than using Li-Ion charged off the grid. The problem is that nations aren't willing to fight the car manufacturers or adopt far more advanced requirements for vehicle construction. A car company can't sell a customer a new carbon fiber car every six years because the damned things last sixty years so they don't make them.

The hybrid systems, if you use a quick-start high efficiency charging engine instead of a "battery ran out main engine" are far far more fuel efficient than the current Prius style "lets strap a garbage engine on to appease idiots". A small composite turbocharged dual-injection engine to charge the battery under controlled conditions such as "at work" and "long lights" can achieve 'mileage' results in the 90+ mpg range and can be run beside recharge locations.

Imagine if your regenerative braking system was backed by an instant-on charging system that could slip right in and pump your batteries up at 2x the discharge rate. You'd have unlimited city driving in traffic until you ran out of fuel AND battery.

The real problem here is what a car actually is: Its a one and a half ton safety device to protect idiots from morons. If we cut the weight in half we could nearly double the acceleration efficiency.
Battery engines are more eco friendly than your standard combustion engines because a power plant can produce the energy more efficiently and cleanly. BUT, if you account for the environmental impact of producing and maintaining a battery vs combustion car, that I do not know.

As for the 90+ mpg car vs current standard electric cars, the main deterrent is cost. There also is a big factor of reliability. Costs of batteries vs life expectancy. You speak about new car every 6 years... EV cars typically have a 8-10 year 100,000 Mile 70% battery life warranty. These batteries deteriorate exponentially. It starts slow, so the first 5 years it will probably only drop 5%, but next 5 years might degenerate 20%, and it probably wont last another 5 more years because, at a certain point they cant power the car anymore and will need to be replaced. Replacing these batteries are extremely expensive. At this point, the cost to replace these batteries is more than your car is worth. So, you basically are forced to buy a new one every 12-15 years.


ALSO... today I learned that 1 gallon in the UK != 1 gallon in the US. Basically 1 UK gallon = 1.2 US Gallons. Imperial Gallon vs US liquid Gallon.
 
1 - 13 of 13 Posts
Top