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Overclocker
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
As we discovered after hours of testing the utility, the FFXV benchmark is disingenuous in its execution, rendering load-intensive objects outside the camera frustum and resulting in a lower reported performance metric. We accessed the hexadecimal graphics settings for manual GameWorks setting tuning, made easier by exposing .INI files via a DLL, then later entered noclip mode to dig into some performance anomalies. On our own, we’d discovered that HairWorks toggling (on/off) had performance impact in areas where no hair existed. The only reason this would happen, aside from anomalous bugs or improper use of HairWorks (also likely, and not mutually exclusive), would be if the single hair-endowed creature in the benchmark were drawn at all times.
The benchmark is rendering creatures that use HairWorks even when they’re miles away from the character and the camera. Again, this was made evident while running benchmarks in a zone with no hairworks whatsoever – zero, none – at which point we realized, by accessing the game’s settings files, that disabling HairWorks would still improve performance even when no hairworks objects were on screen.
https://www.gamersnexus.net/game-be...ous-misleading-benchmark-tool-gameworks-tests

Video:


Update 02-06-2018
https://twitter.comhttps://twitter.com/Windows/status/959607379800272897/FFXVEN/status/960757936887758848
We wanted the benchmark tool to approximate the level of visual quality and performance you can expect from your PC environment when running FINAL FANTASY XV WINDOWS EDITION. A Level Of Detail (LOD) issue has been discovered that affects the benchmark scores.
The benchmark also suffers from stuttering; both of the issues will be addressed in the shipping game. While the settings in the benchmark are largely pre-selected for simplicity’s sake, the final game will feature highly customizable settings with On/Off options... (1/2)I would already assume that the available graphic options in game would medigate this issue. I am, still, curious to hear a response about the benchmarking app itself. As that is the main issue that this whole thing stems from, not the game.


No information on an update regarding the actual benchmark.
 

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This is probably Nvidia's attempt to cripple AMD cards' performance. I'm glad they found this, maybe we can edit the file in the release version of the game to disable HairWorks.
 

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GN does really great digging work, very impressive
 

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Reminds me of the Crysis 2 tessellation issue.
 

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Performance is the bible
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This is probably Nvidia's attempt to cripple AMD cards' performance.
And the "its nvidia's fault" starts right away like a monkey who just can't get enough...

The only ones making the decision in the end of the day of what to include and allow on/off in the benchmark, or the area of rendering, is the developer.
Considering the developer has been mainly focusing on the consoles (which favours AMD), I doubt what you said is true.
 

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What should be here ?
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And the "its nvidia's fault" starts right away like a monkey who just can't get enough...
It's probably Nvidia's attempt to enhance their cards performance by drawing things that doesn't make any difference to said scene.
Is this good now, sire.
 

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And the "its nvidia's fault" starts right away like a monkey who just can't get enough...

The only ones making the decision in the end of the day of what to include and allow on/off in the benchmark, or the area of rendering, is the developer.
Considering the developer has been mainly focusing on the consoles (which favours AMD), I doubt what you said is true.
The developer wouldn't even put this in if it's not encouraged by Nvidia. Do you see this game having this issue on consoles? If the culling is not an issue on console, why would SE introduce it for the PC version? HairWorks hits AMD cards much more than Nvidia cards, Nvidia knows this, but there aren't characters with HairWork hair in all scenes. This is a way to cripple the performance on all scenes for their rival cards. I have a GTX 1080 Ti in my current rig, I couldn't care less if they do this, but don't pretend this is not their anti-competitive practice. Just like Far Cry 4 coincidentally not support Crossfire after Nvidia sponsoring it even though FC3 has the same engine runs very well with Crossfire. Or that Project Cars where the dev said is a "non-Nvidia sponsored" title (that has Nvidia banners everywhere on track) forces the use of Physx with no way to turn it off runs much slower on AMD card. Or Witcher 3 that according to AMD ran really well before Nvidia GameWorks is put in. Yea, I'm sure all of them are not intentional.
 

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And the "its nvidia's fault" starts right away like a monkey who just can't get enough...

The only ones making the decision in the end of the day of what to include and allow on/off in the benchmark, or the area of rendering, is the developer.
Considering the developer has been mainly focusing on the consoles (which favours AMD), I doubt what you said is true.
Nvidia "Meant to be played" games have embedded Nvidia developers working on them, so "the developer" in this case who has the choice is both the team employed by Square-Enix, and the team employed by Nvidia for the PC port. Unfortunately, AMD doesn't have the budget to fly developers to game studios like Nvidia does. (AMD's entire profits are less than Nvidia's R&D budget, to give you an idea.... to put in in perspective, *Intel's* R&D budget is greater than AMD's market-cap!)
 

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Performance is the bible
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The developer wouldn't even put this in if it's not encouraged by Nvidia. Do you see this game having this issue on consoles? If the culling is not an issue on console, why would SE introduce it for the PC version? HairWorks hits AMD cards much more than Nvidia cards, Nvidia knows this, but there aren't characters with HairWork hair in all scenes. This is a way to cripple the performance on all scenes for their rival cards. I have a GTX 1080 Ti in my current rig, I couldn't care less if they do this, but don't pretend this is not their anti-competitive practice. Just like Far Cry 4 coincidentally not support Crossfire after Nvidia sponsoring it even though FC3 has the same engine runs very well with Crossfire. Or that Project Cars where the dev said is a "non-Nvidia sponsored" title (that has Nvidia banners everywhere on track) forces the use of Physx with no way to turn it off runs much slower on AMD card. Or Witcher 3 that according to AMD ran really well before Nvidia GameWorks is put in. Yea, I'm sure all of them are not intentional.
And tressfx hurts nvidia more than it hurts AMD. And your point is? Lets ban all extra features completely?

Are you crying about not allowing to disable it (which is done in development), or about the features themselves, because it seems completely on the latter.

And again, this is the developer's choice. I don't see any proof of nvidia strong-arming them into intentionally hurting AMD. And crossfire support has nothing to do with nvidia but with AMD drivers. AMD have been claiming "omg nvidia are doing this on purpose" which has been shown to be a PR cry and AMD have always "magically" found a way around it (on all the titles you claimed). AMD always found a "magically" driver that boosted performance after crying foul for a couple of weeks.

Nvidia "Meant to be played" games have embedded Nvidia developers working on them, so "the developer" in this case who has the choice is both the team employed by Square-Enix, and the team employed by Nvidia for the PC port. Unfortunately, AMD doesn't have the budget to fly developers to game studios like Nvidia does. (AMD's entire profits are less than Nvidia's R&D budget, to give you an idea.... to put in in perspective, *Intel's* R&D budget is greater than AMD's market-cap!)

Nvidia, just like AMD, have developers to help. This is not an nvidia exclusive ability. It doesn't mean nvidia made the game for square-enix (which have their own development teams and companies).
That claim that AMD doesn't have the money, they have partner programs just like nvidia, they have support just like nvidia, and they work with developers very closely, just like nvidia. They might not have the funds, but they also smaller and in more places (like all the consoles, have CPU devision etc). So they relay on open standards other wrote for them that they can't promote. It doesn't mean they don't have developers on hand to send to game developers for help. They do actually. Crystal dynamics enjoyed months of help from AMD to make tressfx better for example.

You claim things that you assume happened, but has nothing to do with reality.
 

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Iconoclast
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And tressfx hurts nvidia more than it hurts AMD. And your point is? Lets ban all extra features completely?
The point is that no performance budget should be spent where it will never improve IQ and certainly not simply to sabotage benchmark scores.
 

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And tressfx hurts nvidia more than it hurts AMD. And your point is? Lets ban all extra features completely?

Are you crying about not allowing to disable it (which is done in development), or about the features themselves, because it seems completely on the latter.

And again, this is the developer's choice. I don't see any proof of nvidia strong-arming them into intentionally hurting AMD. And crossfire support has nothing to do with nvidia but with AMD drivers. AMD have been claiming "omg nvidia are doing this on purpose" which has been shown to be a PR cry and AMD have always "magically" found a way around it (on all the titles you claimed). AMD always found a "magically" driver that boosted performance after crying foul for a couple of weeks.




Nvidia, just like AMD, have developers to help. This is not an nvidia exclusive ability. It doesn't mean nvidia made the game for square-enix (which have their own development teams and companies).
http://richg42.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/the-truth-on-opengl-driver-quality.html

"Vendor A" in this article, knowing OpenGL's better performance on Nvidia, is clearly Nvidia, and although it was for an OpenGL title, the same process is true for any "Meant to be played" game. Square-Enix no doubt had Nvidia embedded developers for this game, and did not for AMD, which typically does not embed developers (some exceptions exist, for certain big AMD Evolved titles, like the one with open source (implemented for Nvidia also) TressFX libraries), according to this blog entry written by a developer.

Where did I say that Nvidia "made the game" for Square-Enix? You're exaggerating what I said. What I said was that nvidia _assisted_ Square-Enix with the PC port, more than likely with boots on the ground, as outlined in the above blog post. Are you denying that?
 

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Volt addicted OC fanatic
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Delete this also
 

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And tressfx hurts nvidia more than it hurts AMD. And your point is? Lets ban all extra features completely?

Are you crying about not allowing to disable it (which is done in development), or about the features themselves, because it seems completely on the latter.

And again, this is the developer's choice. I don't see any proof of nvidia strong-arming them into intentionally hurting AMD. And crossfire support has nothing to do with nvidia but with AMD drivers. AMD have been claiming "omg nvidia are doing this on purpose" which has been shown to be a PR cry and AMD have always "magically" found a way around it (on all the titles you claimed). AMD always found a "magically" driver that boosted performance after crying foul for a couple of weeks.




Nvidia, just like AMD, have developers to help. This is not an nvidia exclusive ability. It doesn't mean nvidia made the game for square-enix (which have their own development teams and companies).
That claim that AMD doesn't have the money, they have partner programs just like nvidia, they have support just like nvidia, and they work with developers very closely, just like nvidia. They might not have the funds, but they also smaller and in more places (like all the consoles, have CPU devision etc). So they relay on open standards other wrote for them that they can't promote. It doesn't mean they don't have developers on hand to send to game developers for help. They do actually. Crystal dynamics enjoyed months of help from AMD to make tressfx better for example.

You claim things that you assume happened, but has nothing to do with reality.
Nvidia can influence developers because they are paying for promotion or have some kind of deals (like buying a large number of copies to bundle with new GPUs). AMD worked around the issue by limiting tessellation in Witcher 3, they never worked around the issue in Project Cars because the Physx code is required, even today you can see AMD cards run that game worse than Nvidia cards. AMD will probably work around this by limiting tessellation to a limited range in this game, so if they have objects outside of a certain distance from the player, the tessellation will be limited.

As for TressFX, that actually made the characters look better. This is tesellating things that the players can't see, this is the same thing like the times where Crysis 2 (an Nvidia sponsored game) tesellated the water under solid ground that's invisible to the players). That's the difference.
 

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Delete this
 

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Iconoclast
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Hairworks isn't the problem.

The problem is that they are using it to tessellate cattle fur on cattle that isn't even visible during the course of the benchmark, among other things.

They have static alpha textures on the heads of the main characters that looks like crap, then burn geometry performance on obscured low detail assets. There is zero reason to do this other than gross incompetence or deliberately trying to waste performance to make certain parts look worse than others artificially.
 

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Delete this plz
 

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Volt addicted OC fanatic
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Ugh, it posted all my attempts. Sorry for the duplicate messages, guys!
 

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Not the first time nVidia has done something anti-competitive. Wont be the last time they do it either.
The FC4 crossfire issue came about at a time when nVidia were calling for an end to multi GPU setups, while AMD were still championing that aspect of PC gaming, and certainly wasnt a driver issue on AMD's side.

If you deny it happens, you are the sort of naive fool nVidia value having on their side.
 

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Shillwork™ strikes again, but blame the PC port guys for not using LOD properly with it.
 

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Why is no one considering the fact that this may as well be fault of the delevopers? For instance,they could have made render the animals in the original release and it worked because there was no tesselation,but now because Hairworks has been incorporated,it doesn't work as good anymore because they are wasting performance by rendering them at all times.
 
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