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Discussion Starter · #21 · (Edited)
Very nice. i will have to read the memory stability thread when i get some more time :) So your saying even if your not temp limited (aka water/cold ambient) the voltage wont really help your clock speed? Does this mean all core overclocks are actually not viable any longer? Then the next question is can you boost one core and not the others in a manual fashion. like i can on my x299 boards. (even tho i dont do it)
Yeah, thats what I am seeing with my sample, for example, when I increase the vCore using an offset (additionally to using CO) lets say 0.100v, the max VID for the 5600X is 1.45v, in HWInfo64 you can see that there is an increase in maximum voltage, but when you run a light single core test such as CPU-z single core the score is lower than when not applying the additional voltage.

Using the tool Veii shared we can see there is no change to the max VID.

I have been holding off on the 5x00 series cpu's i'm pretty happy with the 3600 for daily use. and i dont know how much more power the 5x00 acutally uses, how fast they really are overclocked and then its what chip would i even want, and the cost of buying something so late in the cycle i feel like i could just wait and pick the new rev in a few months or possibly pick up a OG for cheap if i keep my eyes peeled lol. Its not that i cant buy one... its if i should waste the money on principle more than anything. ie do i really need another cpu that performs pretty much the same as my 7980xe? nope probably not lol. but it might be ok to play around with.
I also had a 3600 and jumped onto the 5600X, not because the 3600 wasnt sufficient, I wanted something new to play with

:D

Its fun playing with it initially, but once you find all the obstacles it can become a turn off as you know that you could eeek some more out of it if they were not there.

Since they truncated the max cpu boost override to 200 mhz on agesa after 1.1.9.0 you cant go any higher on single thread, even if the CPU is capable. Have also used BCLK which does raise the frequency but as the cores need more voltage the max CPU VID is the new obstacle as you can cant get enough juice to the cores, even when pushing stronger CO to the cores.
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
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B550 AORUS MASTER, 3700X, 32GB g.Skill DDR4-3200 (@3800MT/s; 14-14-14-28), XFX RX 5500 XT
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I know this post was not directed at me but I'm gonna really to it anyways 😂😂😂😂😂

@mongoled

Alright, I'm in... I like the thread title and I just picked up a 5800X today, once I've installed and configured it I'll post up my results and do my best to contribute
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·

@mongoled

Alright, I'm in... I like the thread title and I just picked up a 5800X today, once I've installed and configured it I'll post up my results and do my best to contribute
Happy your want to participate, though not to waste your time, just concentrate on CO values first, get them rock stable, then see if you can get something working without GREMLINS 🤣🤣

Gluck with the new CPU

😊
 

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For the record, my optimal EDC value for my 5600X sample is 110A, there is a bit of leeway between 105 to 115 so if you have OCD you can try each increment, hahahahahaha, but it wont tell you anything so why bother
I think this is about right for me too. What is interesting is that setting the limits to Auto on my MSI B550 GEW gave me these:

PPT 500, TDC 200, EDC 110

At least when I set that with PBO - Advanced, and boost override entered. So someone suspected 110A either at AMD or MSI I suppose. Unless the Auto somehow is reading something from the chip?
 

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Auto somehow is reading something from the chip?
It's not clear as to what "Auto" should impliy.
On my board, PBO entries "auto", "disabled", as well as "advanced" > LIMITS "auto" - all three result in default limits set, i.e. 76w/60a/90a for the 5600X.
Though, PBO "enabled" sets them to 1000w/160a/190a.
PBO "advanced" > LIMITS "motherboard" - to 1000w/500a/540a.
What a mess, tbh :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
I think this is about right for me too. What is interesting is that setting the limits to Auto on my MSI B550 GEW gave me these:

PPT 500, TDC 200, EDC 110

At least when I set that with PBO - Advanced, and boost override entered. So someone suspected 110A either at AMD or MSI I suppose. Unless the Auto somehow is reading something from the chip?
Yeah, the tool that Veii shared here also shows these are the settings for my setup when applied to "AUTO" and its different to yours......

I think my methodolgy is sound, its just that the results upon different reboots are not consistent,,,,,,

It's not clear as to what "Auto" should impliy.
On my board, PBO entries "auto", "disabled", as well as "advanced" > LIMITS "auto" - all three result in default limits set, i.e. 76w/60a/90a for the 5600X.
Though, PBO "enabled" sets them to 1000w/160a/190a.
PBO "advanced" > LIMITS "motherboard" - to 1000w/500a/540a.
What a mess, tbh :)
Yeah, the Gremlins are making alot of mess, hey AMD *** is going on with these Gremlins, we demand an answer

:D :D
 
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Yeah, the tool that Veii shared here also shows these are the settings for my setup when applied to "AUTO" and its different to yours......

I think my methodolgy is sound, its just that the results upon different reboots are not consistent,,,,,,
Just looking at limits and benches has made me feel like I mostly just go in circles. I got tired of cores and just went back to 3800 to look at VDDG steps in detail.

I had read an opinion that boost override should be checked to see if it even raises clocks before tuning CO... so I don't know. Others seem to have set to just max negative CO all core, then fix with droopy LLC and positive offset. I haven't tried that, it seems like taking one medicine to treat side effects of another.

Anyway without CO yet, I can in theory have all cores hit 4.8 effective, at least under tiny loads like AIDA cache and memory. But it is either introducing instability or it is banging limiters in an ungraceful manner since it makes the values less consistent. Also best latency is only barely improved, so I don't know.

Also had been testing cores at 3200 XMP, default SOC / voltage and power states which may be part of above. Fabric will downclock to < 300 at idle if that AMD Monitor tool that was also posted is reading correctly.

*edit

Without CO, in CB20 I can get the chip to hold close to 4.65 effective most of the run, it only starts at ~4.675 though. Single core seems to actually go between best and second best while I monitored it. Both of those basically held 4.8, haven't tested +200 yet.
 

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This is basically what I've been dealing with trying to tune my 5800x. I mostly gave up on PBO. I could get it to run REAL nice for about 2-3 days, then would idle crash. Then just crash absolutely non-stop once it did the first time. 🤷‍♂️

It's apparently a pretty nice sample, but something real buggy is going on in or behind the bios. I really don't know if there's anything to be done. I've just been hard locking my vcore and leaving PBO core offset alone.
 

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There's no ccx in 5000's.
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
Just looking at limits and benches has made me feel like I mostly just go in circles. I got tired of cores and just went back to 3800 to look at VDDG steps in detail.

I had read an opinion that boost override should be checked to see if it even raises clocks before tuning CO... so I don't know. Others seem to have set to just max negative CO all core, then fix with droopy LLC and positive offset. I haven't tried that, it seems like taking one medicine to treat side effects of another.

Anyway without CO yet, I can in theory have all cores hit 4.8 effective, at least under tiny loads like AIDA cache and memory. But it is either introducing instability or it is banging limiters in an ungraceful manner since it makes the values less consistent. Also best latency is only barely improved, so I don't know.

Also had been testing cores at 3200 XMP, default SOC / voltage and power states which may be part of above. Fabric will downclock to < 300 at idle if that AMD Monitor tool that was also posted is reading correctly.

*edit

Without CO, in CB20 I can get the chip to hold close to 4.65 effective most of the run, it only starts at ~4.675 though. Single core seems to actually go between best and second best while I monitored it. Both of those basically held 4.8, haven't tested +200 yet.
All valid observations, regards the methods people choose, for me thats determined by what I want to achieve. As I wanted to achieve the highest possible single core boost I set boost override to the maximum then dial my CO to keep the CPU stable under as many loads as I can test it with.

As with yourself I fail to see the use of adding offsets as its difficult enough to get consistent results with using just PBO and CO nevermind adding another variable!

This is basically what I've been dealing with trying to tune my 5800x. I mostly gave up on PBO. I could get it to run REAL nice for about 2-3 days, then would idle crash. Then just crash absolutely non-stop once it did the first time. 🤷‍♂️

It's apparently a pretty nice sample, but something real buggy is going on in or behind the bios. I really don't know if there's anything to be done. I've just been hard locking my vcore and leaving PBO core offset alone.
Ive never hard locked my vCORE when using PBO. When you say PBO core offset are you referring to CO or the telemetry offset ??

Hard locking vCORE should only used when you are running a fixed CPU multiplier, i.e a fixed all core overclock ...
 

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@mongoled
What's your default VIDs table look like, I mean can you make the same screenshot at the end of CB23 run (PBO limits off (mb), CO disabled: !important)

I'm gonna show you my method for tuning Curve Optimizer.
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
@mongoled
What's your default VIDs table look like, I mean can you make the same screenshot at the end of CB23 run (PBO limits off (mb), CO disabled: !important)

I'm gonna show you my method for tuning Curve Optimizer.
Will get back to you later!
 

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Discussion Starter · #36 · (Edited)
@PJVol

Here you go (I was unsure what you meant by "limits off" so I ran PBO disabled, auto and enabled)

Priority: "Below Normal"
LLC: AUTO
CPU Switching Frequency: Enhanced/800
CPU NB Switching Frequency: Enhanced/600
CO: Disabled
Ambient Temp: 27C

TLDR
On agesa 1.2.0.3x auto defaults to disabled.

With PBO on AUTO with no CO default CPU VID is on par with the ASRock motherboards BUT the power usage per core that HWInfo64 is relaying are not comparable !

PS How did you get Tctl/Tdie per core ? Or is this a feature of the ASRock motherboard controller ?

PBO Disabled
CB23_PBO-AUTO_LLC-Disabled.png

PBO AUTO
CB23_PBO-AUTO_LLC-AUTO.png

PBO Enabled
CB23_PBO-AUTO_LLC-Enabled.png

** EDIT **
PBO Motherboard Limits
CB23_PBO-Advanced-Motherboard_LLC-AUTO.png
 

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I'm doing 5.05Ghz singlecore boost on my chip.

Best cores are 01 and 04.
2515001


C0 is -15 on best cores and -5 on the rest + 200mhz system is stable and no idle crashes. I also set PBO limits to motherboard

2515002


2515003


Tuning C0 per cores does take awhile but is necessary to find out where its unstable

If I go to -20 on my second best core I get idle cashes after a couple days.
 

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I was unsure what you meant by "limits off"
I meant limits are off so you're not bump into any. (mb) - means motherboard. Is there "motherboard" in a "PBO Limits" submenu on your board?
Per core temp sensors are in the latest HWInfo beta.
The idea was to obtain an average per core VIDs "calculated" by SMU without implicit restrictions applied.

As for prime, I ran OCCT with small/avx2 but overtemp protection I set was triggered at 90°+ that I would rather avoid tbh, its reeeeealy hot now :mad:
I may repeat it later when heat ceased a bit, or better on the next week (oracles promised < 30 at least)

2515031
 

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TLDR
Its looking that Ryzen Gremlins are not allowing me to get consistent results, looking like just leave PBO on AUTO and tweak CO ....

:oops:

Warning, if you want to waste your time read further

:D :D
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Note:
Some info below is relevant to my CPU which is a 5600X, those who have higher core count CPUs hope you can test the methodology outlined below to see if it holds true, same goes for other 5600X users, would be great if other could validate my findings

Prerequisites
1.
Stable DRAM set
2. CO (Curve Optimiser) set to per core and each core is tuned to its most stable value while using "Boost Override" set to 200 mhz.

3a. CPU LLC: Auto
3b. CPU NB LLC: Auto

4a. vCORE: Auto
4b. vSOC/vDIMM/vDDP/vDDG: Whatever you require for your stable DRAM set

5. PPT/TDC: The maximum value your BIOS supports
5. PPT/TDC, set to AUTO, see amendment to section 7. CPU VDD Telemetry Offset Value

6.
EDC
This needs discussion, as im water-cooled im not concerned about restricting the "Thermal Design Current (TDC)" hence the reason for setting it to max value, also im not concerned about maximum power efficiency so again i set the "Package Power Total (PPT)" to its maximum value. I have found through my testing that setting these at maximum values does not negatively influence, in terms of performance, the maximal obtainable performance from my system when running x/y/x/ benchmark.

6. EDC
The above (striked out comment) is valid only if you have a specific use case scenario, though in such scenarios you would be better off using an all core overclock, not PBO.

All we need to be concerned about is tuning the right value for EDC and not worry about anything else.

:)

So we go through the process of, set an EDC value, reboot, rinse and repeat, we will use CB23 multi-core and Linpack Xtreme (selection: 1, 3, 5, enter, enter) to compare results between different EDC settings.

For the record, my optimal EDC value for my 5600X sample is 110A, there is a bit of leeway between 105 to 115 so if you have OCD you can try each increment, hahahahahaha, but it wont tell you anything so why bother

:D

7. CPU VDD Telemetry
After you got your EDC value you do the following, set EDC to double your value, yeah I can hear you thinking, "but why do we want to do that", well now we are going to use the CPU VDD Telemetry section

;)

7a. CPU VDD_SoC Current Optimisation: Custom Setting
7b. CPU VDD Full Scale Current: The optimal EDC setting for your system as previously tested.
7c. CPU VDD Telemetry Offset Value: This needs more discussion, see below...
7d. CPU Soc Full Scale Current: Im yet to play with this...
7e. CPU Soc Telemetry Offset Value: Im yet to play with this....

CPU VDD Telemetry Offset Value
Basically I found that this value effects the balance between optimal all core performance and optimal single core performance, set the value too low and multi-core will suffer but single core will boost further, if you find the right balance you can get the best of both Worlds. For the record im not yet finished tuning this value yet buts its looking to be a relatively low value (comparative of the max input value which is 10000mA), play in the range of 8mA to 30mA if on 5600X for higher core count CPU you need to raise this range
On further testing the relationship is not as above but as follows.

The VDD telemetry offset effects the maximum all core frequency achievable dependant on the load that is being requested.

For example, Prime95 Small FFTs using AVX2, is more "heavy" on the CPU than running the CPU-Z bench test.

What this means in real numbers ??

Effect on Prime 95 Small FFTs (AVX2)
Offset: 1mA, All Core Frequency is around 4430-4460 mhz
Offset: 2999mA, All Core Frequency is around 4530-4560 mhz

Ughhh, this is getting worse, after a reboot the above was no longer valid, more Ryzen Gremlins !!

As I was in the process of getting results for screenshots I was going into BIOS and changing setting to run the tests.

I had already tested 1mA offset with AUTO PBO over two reboots and it was knocking 80-100 mhz off Prime95 Small FFTs.

But now with AUTO PBO and 1mA offset it is only loosing 20 mhz from all core frequency

:mad:

Different types of loads are effected in different ways, you need to test for your specific use case.

After this amendment, I had to re-investigate on how PBO works and from preliminary testing it seems that the most flexible solution is to leave PBO on AUTO and tweak only the "CPU VDD Full Scale Current" and "CPU VDD Telemetry Offset Value" values.

:)

Think that's it, I will update this post with images and links.

For the record

CB23: Between 1215x - 122xx
Linpack Xtreme: AVG 671 Gflops (3800/1900 14-15-14-14-26-40-240-1T)

Once ive fully tested my optimal values will run more benchmarks, want to now discuss why I went down this avenue as its pretty important if you value your time :)

Because of the recent information @Veii kindly shared we now have a tool that tells us a maximum value of the most important setting that is associated with how far you can extract the maximal performance of your CPU while being confined (as we cant change these 🤬🤬🤬 ) to AMD "safe" range and that is "Maximum CPU VID" and "ProcHot"

You cant aim any higher than what the maximum VID of the CPU is without loosing performance and gaining instability. You can set higher voltages, but they dont do anything to help things, just output more heat with less performance. I have not found a way to increase the maximum VID, maybe I am missing something really simple.......

vid-limit-5600x.jpg

Id imagine if you were able to increase the max VID value you could then tweak EDC slightly higher while re-tweaking your CO values while using a small BCLK increase. You wont need much BCLK as the CPUs are already near the maximum of what can be achieved from the silicon, but there is headroom for a small increase in CPU performance using BCLK since the maximal value of the CPU "Boost Override" has been gimped to 200mhz

:(

And we must also talk about ProcHot as I saw Veii highlighted this value, at idle it is 65, but on load its limit is set to 4850 see image below there are two readings one is set to 65 (assuming thats Celcius), so I am unsure if this really is a limit to how far we can push the processor when the CPU is thermally challenged, i.e. running a standard AMD heatsink/fan.

prochot.jpg
without 10ma boosting was lower, with 10ma boosting was higher, used more voltage, and stayed cooler.
10-20ma was no noticable difference running R23. (most what i stated is below) somehow i made a big mistake in what i was
typing so i edited this. sorry boy, yes english is my native, but grammer/punctuation is not. 🤷‍♂️

(this is the SAME core offset values i shared in zen ram thread)
only thing i changed was higher PPT as its needed, more TDC as auto/board 70 TDC is not enough,
and input 10ma upto 50ma (50ma drops down to 4300mhz (somewhere in there lower than 4350 but no lower than 4300)
upto 20ma cpu_vdd offset however wasnt much difference between the two.
(at this time my ol lady is nagging to watch some dang netflix and my pc is how we do so)
ill report back later with proper showings and screenshots of said statements. (maybe its due to the board?)
unsure. none the less, -10 and -20 is "better" to run on my chip didnt test anything in between. also did NOT get any higher
score in R23. (this shot again is without any offset only the EDC telemetry input)
while running 10ma however i did NOT DROP BELOW 4600mhz AT ALL more along 4650/4625
while staying under 78c which for this chip is DANG GOOD.
(have yet to test prime95 manual fixed 4650 oc either) tried up-to 1.28v but failed on one core (3 of course being that core)

anyhow, will be running 10ma offset to telemetry, perhaps i did something wrong on EDC (one more thing,
i did see that while running 10ma that PPT would actually hit higher near 140w) unsure what that means, and remember it stayed COOLER
and BOOSTED BETTER while USING MORE POWER?

2515069



(EDIT/UPDATE)

this is running motherboard limits, with 140edc tele offset with 10ma VDD tele.
(did drop to 4590/4570mhz) but none the less, temps are the same but power is well...
HALF?) or does TELEMETRY offsets just tell the board that its using less power but not actual
less power is being used???? @mongoled (are you running anything to kill tasks made by windows or anything?)
if so share it so that i may use it too. manually killing stuff and seeing that its auto starting again is annoying.
let alone if i disable several i forget what i turned off.
2515075


(EDIT AGAIN)

while using the same "motherboard" limits the same EVERYTHING except changing 1ma CPU_VDD offset
to 10ma CPU_VDD offset tele values power draw goes up to
86 watts.
(no pic this time) but still... same core voltage, same temps, same everything only did not however go below 4600mhz
this time even tho the temp was the same. scratch that 78c max
 

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Discussion Starter · #40 ·
@PJVol
Ive updated the post with the CB23 benches

"Motherboard Limits" is the same as PBO on "Enabled"

I understood the idea

;)

Tell me what you think now that the data is "all in",

For me its quite clear that something is going on with how the cores power usage is being relayed through HWInfo64 between MSI and ASRock
 
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