Heaven Anamoly?
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because it's not consistent with any kind of overheating artifact i've ever seen, it only happens in this demo, my temps are low, it's only with tessellation on, and it does it with stock settings?
Originally Posted by nckid4u  sure looks like artifacting to me. What makes you think it is not? |
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Let me run the test now...
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This is not an artifact. This is a flaw in the modeling in relation to light refraction and adaptive tessellation. The issue won't occur if tessellation is disabled.
The problem with the engine as it is presently coded is that it attempts to render lighting for every triangle drawn. Since the dragon's legs have a HUGE amount of triangles in tessellation, and the engine is only 1.0 and not entirely bug free, at certain angles, the light will reflect while at other angles it will refract against it's own polygons.
This issue could easily be fixed by adding adaptive tessellation coding, but the point of the engine was to show off Directx 11. Uni-Engines Heaven was the first engine to try and do this, and though it is 95% coded well, it still uses some of the directx 11 SDK libraries.
The lines you see are not a driver issue, they are a tessellation and directx 11 issue. If you look at the wireframe when the problem is occurring, you will see the number of polygons shifting, albeit it is very faint and hard to notice in wire frame with all the wires of the frame seeming to come together, but if you repeat the motions where the lines appear and disappear, you will see the tessellation changing in real time, but not accurately.
You can test this yourself buy running the Heaven demo in Directx 11 with Tessellation enabled and everything maxed out, then go to the dragon with the time of day close to noon. You will see the lines. Now, click on environment, and move the slider to midnight. You can see that the lighting is causing the problem due to reflection/refraction problems. This could be overcome, but the Heaven benchmark/demo only exists to show off what is possible, not to be perfect.
I suggest writing uni-engine and asking them about it. I am sure they will let you know what stage they are on the engine and when, or if the problem will be resolved.
The ATI demos don't do have this problem, but Dirt 2 has shadow problems that are still being addressed. The shadow problems occur on both ATI and nVidia cards.
VERY IMPORTANT QUESTION!!!
Do you see these issues in other tessellation demos?
The problem with the engine as it is presently coded is that it attempts to render lighting for every triangle drawn. Since the dragon's legs have a HUGE amount of triangles in tessellation, and the engine is only 1.0 and not entirely bug free, at certain angles, the light will reflect while at other angles it will refract against it's own polygons.
This issue could easily be fixed by adding adaptive tessellation coding, but the point of the engine was to show off Directx 11. Uni-Engines Heaven was the first engine to try and do this, and though it is 95% coded well, it still uses some of the directx 11 SDK libraries.
The lines you see are not a driver issue, they are a tessellation and directx 11 issue. If you look at the wireframe when the problem is occurring, you will see the number of polygons shifting, albeit it is very faint and hard to notice in wire frame with all the wires of the frame seeming to come together, but if you repeat the motions where the lines appear and disappear, you will see the tessellation changing in real time, but not accurately.
You can test this yourself buy running the Heaven demo in Directx 11 with Tessellation enabled and everything maxed out, then go to the dragon with the time of day close to noon. You will see the lines. Now, click on environment, and move the slider to midnight. You can see that the lighting is causing the problem due to reflection/refraction problems. This could be overcome, but the Heaven benchmark/demo only exists to show off what is possible, not to be perfect.
I suggest writing uni-engine and asking them about it. I am sure they will let you know what stage they are on the engine and when, or if the problem will be resolved.
The ATI demos don't do have this problem, but Dirt 2 has shadow problems that are still being addressed. The shadow problems occur on both ATI and nVidia cards.
VERY IMPORTANT QUESTION!!!
Do you see these issues in other tessellation demos?
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Good news for everyone...
http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=309174
This is not a new problem. This problem is over 5 months old. I am sure Uningine are aware of it. I emailed their support staff today to see if there is a resolution.
From what I can see, the engine is not the problem... the maps is the problem. It appears they didn't take TOO much time in perfecting the tessellated map. Perhaps an updated version of heaven will be released to solve this problem.
http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=309174
This is not a new problem. This problem is over 5 months old. I am sure Uningine are aware of it. I emailed their support staff today to see if there is a resolution.
From what I can see, the engine is not the problem... the maps is the problem. It appears they didn't take TOO much time in perfecting the tessellated map. Perhaps an updated version of heaven will be released to solve this problem.
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THIS EMAIL IS FROM UNINGINE DIRECTLY TO ME!!!
Denis Shergin
to me, support
show details 7:33 AM (4 hours ago)
Hello Noah,
The mentioned artifact is due to UV map seams, this problem occurs only
for tessellated surfaces. Unfortunately it can't be avoided, only
minimized.
We have recently gave a talk at GDC regarding this issue as well:
http://nvidia.fullviewmedia.com/gdc2...aprjagaev.html
--
Denis Shergin
CEO / Unigine Corp.
[email protected]
tel.: +73822553458 (office)
tel.: +79138250566 (mobile)
Denis Shergin
to me, support
show details 7:33 AM (4 hours ago)
Hello Noah,
The mentioned artifact is due to UV map seams, this problem occurs only
for tessellated surfaces. Unfortunately it can't be avoided, only
minimized.
We have recently gave a talk at GDC regarding this issue as well:
http://nvidia.fullviewmedia.com/gdc2...aprjagaev.html
--
Denis Shergin
CEO / Unigine Corp.
[email protected]
tel.: +73822553458 (office)
tel.: +79138250566 (mobile)
Joined
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402 Posts
I emailed them with the following. Any software I receive I will not be able to share unless they allow me to. I intend to work directly with them, and ultimately, my businesses want to invest in them.
Below is the email I sent them.
--------------------------------------------------
Thank you, Denis, for the prompt reply.
Please respond to the following email. I/we look forward to working with and investing in you in the future.
I am working for an upstart company called Barracuda Soft, and I also work for lfs.net... http://www.lfs.net We wrote our own engine, but with all the work we have put into the current engine, time is a virtue in releasing the Live For Speed with upgraded graphics.
Attached is from the youtube video directly from nVidia about the Fermi, and confirmed by emails between nVidia and myself.
Attached is the image file of the Version 1.1 being run on Fermi by nVidia. I would like a copy of this, as nobody seems to have a public copy, and nVidia would not send me the software they ran in the video.
http://images.roosterteeth.com/image...259271d974.jpg
This is the source of the image, unmodified, posted directly by nvidia.
Would you kindly send me Version 1.1 of your heaven benchmark?
I would also like, if possible, the Heaven 2.0 installer? Honestly, I would really like to see the source code differences between V1.0 and 1.1 if possible. I can understand if you don't want to release the 2.0 demo until the GTX 480/470 cards are released, but if you can send me all you can without impeding upon your business income, I would GREATLY appreciate it. Sending me the 2.0 source is not as important at the moment, though it would help a lot. The Source for 1.0 and 1.1 are much more important to us.
As I said before, I work with the LFS.NET team for the Live For Speed build project, and I also develop software for third party companies such as code optimization and implementation. I already have the SDK for the Fermi GTX 480/470, which I received from nVidia since I am a registered nVidia Developer and have been working with them for some time to develop games, vertex programs and math software, and tech demos for their cards, their product developers, and their end users.
If you are unable to send it, I would like to know why, and the changes in the code. I am very interested in the coding, and I am also interested in the Source Code of both versions, though I an understand if you don't want to release your source, but seeing as you plan to release Version 2.0 shortly, I don't see the harm in sending me the windows compiled installer of Heaven V1.1 and the source to both 1.0 and 1.1, as I can only assume 2.0 will be significantly different.
I take these matters very seriously, and seeing as I have a pre-order GTX 480, I find it only fair to test the engines. I know for a fact that V2.0 should be more CPU reliant, as all games use more than JUST the graphics card, but I want to see what changed between 1.0 and 1.1. At the very least, if you would not mind since it is already about to be phased out, could you please send me the V1.1 installer, or the source so I can compile an installer? I would prefer a pre-compiled installer, but the source for both would be more interesting as if you use C and the OpenGL engines, I can make an optimized port for our linux releases, showing the full potential of your software beyond just the Microsoft environment.
I know it is heavily rumored to be releasing to the public at the as the time the nVidia GTX 480 and 470 Fermi model cards, which greatly concerns me as this rumor (and right now I still consider it to be a rumor until you confirm it to be true or untrue), is designed to show off the new Fermi boards. I really would like to get some evidence on this directly from you, as it would be terrible if a company were biased toward optimizing their benchmark for a particular manufacturer. I know with Heaven 1.0, there were not many other options for the mass market to experience due to the lack of choices for Directx 11 and Tessellation supported hardware at the time, but I still feel it only fair to hear directly from you than from "some rumor". I really want to have faith in your business, and I/we strongly look forward toward the opportunity to invest in your company and license your engine from you for game development, but I/we do need a test for ourselves, because as you know, the Fermi boards will be in limited supply, while the ATI boards are already on the market with a HUGE clientele just foaming at the mouth to invest in you. As I said before, in my opinion, a rumor is only a rumor until it is truly concluded. I am relying upon you to conclude this.
Your response is appreciated.
Sincerely,
- Noah Diamond
P.S.: I would like a look under the hood of 2.0, and it would be splendid if you sent me the installer for 2.0, but I really can't wait. I am also interested in the source if possible, as I really am interested in your engine. If your engine V2.0 proves to be what everyone is hoping it will be, not only will I be thrilled, I will be glad to license your engine for our video simulation games. I am working with the Live For Speed project right now, and we are sincerely interested in licensing a new engine to refresh the game and bring it to the masses. I am also interested in seeing what the engine can do if the source were modified to accept out virtual OpenGL 4.0 spec, though right now the OpenGL 4.0 spec we have is just that... specifications. I would like to find a way to introduce tessellation to the OpenGL world, as open source is what we believe to be the future.
In conclusion, I would VERY MUCH APPRECIATE it if you could send me the installer and/or the source to Heaven 2.0, 1.1, and if possible, the source to 1.0. We believe it to be only fair to the gaming community if we can develop the very best software, but we don't want to invest in something that is presently intangible to us. In regards to the games listed on your portfolio as using your engines, I am not asking for the full engine source of your final release, since you deserve your hard earned pay for the creation of such a beautiful engine, but I would like to see the roads ahead of us.
P.P.S: If you cannot send any of these, the very least you could do is inform me the true changes between Heaven Benchmark 1.0 and 1.1, and the features available in 2.0, though I would really like something tangible. If you want me to sign a disclosure saying I will not release the code, and allow you to monitor my use of it, that is perfectly fine. I am willing to sign anything, and hold true to it, if only to understand the power and intentions of your engine.
Thank You again.
Sincerely,
Noah Diamond
--------------------------------------------------
I will keep you informed on what I am allowed to release, or if they deny my requests. A denial of request would only make them, and nVidia, look worse in the public eye.
- Noah
Below is the email I sent them.
--------------------------------------------------
Thank you, Denis, for the prompt reply.
Please respond to the following email. I/we look forward to working with and investing in you in the future.
I am working for an upstart company called Barracuda Soft, and I also work for lfs.net... http://www.lfs.net We wrote our own engine, but with all the work we have put into the current engine, time is a virtue in releasing the Live For Speed with upgraded graphics.
Attached is from the youtube video directly from nVidia about the Fermi, and confirmed by emails between nVidia and myself.
Attached is the image file of the Version 1.1 being run on Fermi by nVidia. I would like a copy of this, as nobody seems to have a public copy, and nVidia would not send me the software they ran in the video.
http://images.roosterteeth.com/image...259271d974.jpg
This is the source of the image, unmodified, posted directly by nvidia.
Would you kindly send me Version 1.1 of your heaven benchmark?
I would also like, if possible, the Heaven 2.0 installer? Honestly, I would really like to see the source code differences between V1.0 and 1.1 if possible. I can understand if you don't want to release the 2.0 demo until the GTX 480/470 cards are released, but if you can send me all you can without impeding upon your business income, I would GREATLY appreciate it. Sending me the 2.0 source is not as important at the moment, though it would help a lot. The Source for 1.0 and 1.1 are much more important to us.
As I said before, I work with the LFS.NET team for the Live For Speed build project, and I also develop software for third party companies such as code optimization and implementation. I already have the SDK for the Fermi GTX 480/470, which I received from nVidia since I am a registered nVidia Developer and have been working with them for some time to develop games, vertex programs and math software, and tech demos for their cards, their product developers, and their end users.
If you are unable to send it, I would like to know why, and the changes in the code. I am very interested in the coding, and I am also interested in the Source Code of both versions, though I an understand if you don't want to release your source, but seeing as you plan to release Version 2.0 shortly, I don't see the harm in sending me the windows compiled installer of Heaven V1.1 and the source to both 1.0 and 1.1, as I can only assume 2.0 will be significantly different.
I take these matters very seriously, and seeing as I have a pre-order GTX 480, I find it only fair to test the engines. I know for a fact that V2.0 should be more CPU reliant, as all games use more than JUST the graphics card, but I want to see what changed between 1.0 and 1.1. At the very least, if you would not mind since it is already about to be phased out, could you please send me the V1.1 installer, or the source so I can compile an installer? I would prefer a pre-compiled installer, but the source for both would be more interesting as if you use C and the OpenGL engines, I can make an optimized port for our linux releases, showing the full potential of your software beyond just the Microsoft environment.
I know it is heavily rumored to be releasing to the public at the as the time the nVidia GTX 480 and 470 Fermi model cards, which greatly concerns me as this rumor (and right now I still consider it to be a rumor until you confirm it to be true or untrue), is designed to show off the new Fermi boards. I really would like to get some evidence on this directly from you, as it would be terrible if a company were biased toward optimizing their benchmark for a particular manufacturer. I know with Heaven 1.0, there were not many other options for the mass market to experience due to the lack of choices for Directx 11 and Tessellation supported hardware at the time, but I still feel it only fair to hear directly from you than from "some rumor". I really want to have faith in your business, and I/we strongly look forward toward the opportunity to invest in your company and license your engine from you for game development, but I/we do need a test for ourselves, because as you know, the Fermi boards will be in limited supply, while the ATI boards are already on the market with a HUGE clientele just foaming at the mouth to invest in you. As I said before, in my opinion, a rumor is only a rumor until it is truly concluded. I am relying upon you to conclude this.
Your response is appreciated.
Sincerely,
- Noah Diamond
P.S.: I would like a look under the hood of 2.0, and it would be splendid if you sent me the installer for 2.0, but I really can't wait. I am also interested in the source if possible, as I really am interested in your engine. If your engine V2.0 proves to be what everyone is hoping it will be, not only will I be thrilled, I will be glad to license your engine for our video simulation games. I am working with the Live For Speed project right now, and we are sincerely interested in licensing a new engine to refresh the game and bring it to the masses. I am also interested in seeing what the engine can do if the source were modified to accept out virtual OpenGL 4.0 spec, though right now the OpenGL 4.0 spec we have is just that... specifications. I would like to find a way to introduce tessellation to the OpenGL world, as open source is what we believe to be the future.
In conclusion, I would VERY MUCH APPRECIATE it if you could send me the installer and/or the source to Heaven 2.0, 1.1, and if possible, the source to 1.0. We believe it to be only fair to the gaming community if we can develop the very best software, but we don't want to invest in something that is presently intangible to us. In regards to the games listed on your portfolio as using your engines, I am not asking for the full engine source of your final release, since you deserve your hard earned pay for the creation of such a beautiful engine, but I would like to see the roads ahead of us.
P.P.S: If you cannot send any of these, the very least you could do is inform me the true changes between Heaven Benchmark 1.0 and 1.1, and the features available in 2.0, though I would really like something tangible. If you want me to sign a disclosure saying I will not release the code, and allow you to monitor my use of it, that is perfectly fine. I am willing to sign anything, and hold true to it, if only to understand the power and intentions of your engine.
Thank You again.
Sincerely,
Noah Diamond
--------------------------------------------------
I will keep you informed on what I am allowed to release, or if they deny my requests. A denial of request would only make them, and nVidia, look worse in the public eye.
- Noah
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402 Posts
http://nvidia.fullviewmedia.com/gdc2...aprjagaev.html
This is using a nVidia card..., so it's not an ATI problem...
Jump to minute 7:30. They explain the anomalies.
This is using a nVidia card..., so it's not an ATI problem...
Jump to minute 7:30. They explain the anomalies.
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402 Posts
Quote:
I live to serve and tell the truth.
On another subject, I am trying to get the Metro 2033 PC game running on my 5970 which is at 850/4800 for both GPUs and Memory banks. I have a dedicated Physx card, and dual hardware tessellation units, as we ATI users all know with the 5970. I OC'd the PCI-E bus to 110 to let the card breathe.
My dedicated Physx card is a GT 240, with all 96 cores dedicated to Physx for this game, the Tessellation handled by dual dedicated units, and 3200 stream processors to handle the graphics. I am about to find out if all this is going to do the job.
The problem with the new Fermi boards is that both tessellation and Physx are handled by the stream processors. I am hoping that having dedicated hardware for each function will help. If I need more Physx power, I have a GTX 295 just sitting here, new, unused, ready if I need it.
It's funny... I used to run the 295, but they kept burning out when I overclocked them, so I kept sending them back to BFG for RMA... then the last time I RMAd, it took 2 months to return a new board due to stock and manufacturing problems, so I have the "fixed" version B of this board, but while waiting for it to arrive, I ordered a HIS 5970 from Hong Kong overnight because I was fed up with not having a graphics card.
I will report back my findings.
Originally Posted by Nick911 Someone can do his HW. Hot dam!! Good work. |
On another subject, I am trying to get the Metro 2033 PC game running on my 5970 which is at 850/4800 for both GPUs and Memory banks. I have a dedicated Physx card, and dual hardware tessellation units, as we ATI users all know with the 5970. I OC'd the PCI-E bus to 110 to let the card breathe.
My dedicated Physx card is a GT 240, with all 96 cores dedicated to Physx for this game, the Tessellation handled by dual dedicated units, and 3200 stream processors to handle the graphics. I am about to find out if all this is going to do the job.
The problem with the new Fermi boards is that both tessellation and Physx are handled by the stream processors. I am hoping that having dedicated hardware for each function will help. If I need more Physx power, I have a GTX 295 just sitting here, new, unused, ready if I need it.
It's funny... I used to run the 295, but they kept burning out when I overclocked them, so I kept sending them back to BFG for RMA... then the last time I RMAd, it took 2 months to return a new board due to stock and manufacturing problems, so I have the "fixed" version B of this board, but while waiting for it to arrive, I ordered a HIS 5970 from Hong Kong overnight because I was fed up with not having a graphics card.
I will report back my findings.
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402 Posts
If anyone needs any help with ANY computer problems, don't hesitate to message me. I will help.
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402 Posts
http://www.606studios.com/bendisboar...ad.php?t=90600
This is funny. Off topic since the issue of this thread is resolved, but what they hey...
Look at the avatar of the 4th post...
![]()
Tell me that isn't awesome.
This is funny. Off topic since the issue of this thread is resolved, but what they hey...
Look at the avatar of the 4th post...
Tell me that isn't awesome.
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402 Posts
Check this out...
----------------------------------------------------
"Масленников А.В."
to me, sales
show details 6:09 AM (3 hours ago)
Hello Noah,
Thanks for interesting in Unigine. Sorry for delay, as I was out of the office - ill.
- Show quoted text -
I would like to receive an evaluation kit to see the potential it has
for my game development.
Thank You,
- Noah Diamond
Please sign enclosed NDA prior to getting the Unigine Evaluation Kit.
The NDA should be filled in with your data, printed, signed by your
person in charge and sent back to us as a scanned copy via e-mail or by
fax (+73822553458).
Sincerely,
--
Alex Maslennikov
Sales manager / Unigine Corp.
--------------------------------------------
Soon, I will have a SDK for the Unigine. I no longer need to deconstruct. I will have the source. I am not allowed to share the source because of a Non Disclosure Agreement, but I will be able to talk about what I am making... and because of that, I will be able to present all the calls the engine has.
----------------------------------------------------
"Масленников А.В."
to me, sales
show details 6:09 AM (3 hours ago)
Hello Noah,
Thanks for interesting in Unigine. Sorry for delay, as I was out of the office - ill.
- Show quoted text -
I would like to receive an evaluation kit to see the potential it has
for my game development.
Thank You,
- Noah Diamond
Please sign enclosed NDA prior to getting the Unigine Evaluation Kit.
The NDA should be filled in with your data, printed, signed by your
person in charge and sent back to us as a scanned copy via e-mail or by
fax (+73822553458).
Sincerely,
--
Alex Maslennikov
Sales manager / Unigine Corp.
--------------------------------------------
Soon, I will have a SDK for the Unigine. I no longer need to deconstruct. I will have the source. I am not allowed to share the source because of a Non Disclosure Agreement, but I will be able to talk about what I am making... and because of that, I will be able to present all the calls the engine has.
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