[Nivis Tigridis]

Hi OCN,

I'm the IT of the small business I work for (we're right now at a little bit more then 15 employees).

I've been ask to do a "budget prevision" for a new network.

I need help to get the right Switches and Router. I'm not too bad in Networking, I've manage to create the small network with Cisco Packet tracer and found what I needed (logically) but I'm pretty lost when to choose the hardware (I miss experience to translate correctly the information's I'm given).

I would need, all need to be rack mountable:

1- L2 Switch (managed) 48 ports
Aggregation support.
Vlan support is a option.
100/1G Copper (10 G and or 10/100/1G is optional)
Spaning Tree support (I think it's in all the manageable switches)
(Optional Fiber optic links 10 G)
(QOS support optional, I'll need it with the router)

2- Router (Managed) could be 2 ports (1 Wan, 1 Lan) or more
(2 WAN is optional)
Aggregation support.
Vlan support is a option.
GigaLan Copper (10 G is optional)
QOS
(Wireless is optional (G and/or N)

3- Router (Managed) could be 2 ports (something lower end then the first one)
Vlan support is a option.
GigaLan Copper (10 G is optional)

Quickly it's what I have in mind.

Why the Manageable is for future proof, I have the feeling that the network will grow pretty quickly soon as the new one will be implanted.

If you as why the 10/100/1G option it's because I'm stuck with old units only working at 10 Mbs

and I can't remove them for now.

I'll also state that Cisco is out of the equation... it's freaky too expensive.

I would need brand and part #; also if you could add up technical reason why it's good it would help me at the same time.

Best regards,

NB: I did some research and found some interesting product in the brands
Dlink
Netgear
HP (I just look at them because they bought 3COMs) (any feedback about the reliability of their switches / router would be appreciated. I had too much issue with their entry level servers and their "home" PC are not that great either)...

Thank you for at least reading this I hope to have some help soon.

 

[ComGuards]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nivis Tigridis 1- L2 Switch (managed) 48 ports Aggregation support. Vlan support is a option. 100/1G Copper (10 G and or 10/100/1G is optional) Spaning Tree support (I think it's in all the manageable switches) (Optional Fiber optic links 10 G) (QOS support optional, I'll need it with the router)

HP/3COM
http://h10148.www1.hp.com/products/e...=3CRS48G-48-91

This one would be expensive.

DELL PowerConnect 6248
http://www.dell.com/us/en/business/n...48&s=bsd&cs=04

(I swear the two look practically identical, lol)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nivis Tigridis 2- Router (Managed) could be 2 ports (1 Wan, 1 Lan) or more (2 WAN is optional) Aggregation support. Vlan support is a option. GigaLan Copper (10 G is optional) QOS (Wireless is optional (G and/or N)

I know you said that Cisco is "too expensive", but you should look into the Cisco 520-series secure routers:
http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/ps9305/index.html

Designed for Small Business, should be sufficient even into the entry-mid-size business level.

I really wouldn't run any consumer-level product as the front-line-router in a business environment, even if it's flashed with DD-WRT / Tomato...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nivis Tigridis 3- Router (Managed) could be 2 ports (something lower end then the first one) Vlan support is a option. GigaLan Copper (10 G is optional)

Cisco RVS4000 (No wireless):
http://cisco.biz/en/US/products/ps9928/index.html

Cisco WRVS4400N (Wireless):
http://cisco.biz/en/US/products/ps9931/index.html

From eBay : Cisco 2600-series routers.

============

In my experience, nothing but positive experience with HP ProCurve-series of networking. Also no issues with Dell PowerConnect (Dell Reseller experience).

Generally, HP's been pretty good in terms of support with regards to their Servers, though I've never dealt with one that's basically a glorified-desktop

.

 

[Thorn-Blade]

You may want to check out HP ProCurve switches. I personally don't like the cli only because I learned on Cisco. Some of the HP ProCurve switches have life time warrenty and support. You can find these in 1U or modular chasis. We have gone to HP ProCurve globally in the office area, but still use Cisco in the production areas.

We use the 3500yl and 5400zl models.

You speak of aggregation on routers. I am not sure why you are asking for this. It would help us if you could provide a network diagram of what you are wanting to do. I am wondering what you need the second router for. You wanting to do HSRP or GLBP for redundancy for your ISP connection?

You also mentioned spanning tree... if you are not doing redundant connections, you will not need it. I understand you maybe looking out for the future, but here again a network diagram of what you want to do would be helpful. We also need to know:
1. number of clients (15),
2. number of servers.. what type..
3. what type of internet connection.. redundant or not
4. do you have a corperate WAN connection?
5. what is your expected growth in the next 5 years?
6. firewall ?

 

[Nivis Tigridis]

Quote:

You speak of aggregation on routers. I am not sure why you are asking for this. It would help us if you could provide a network diagram of what you are wanting to do.

Agregation are on the switches only, it will be for the backbone and/or to link the server(s) with more bandwith if needed.

Quote:

I am wondering what you need the second router for. You wanting to do HSRP or GLBP for redundancy for your ISP connection?

A request of our R&D Departement, I agree with it for two simple reason:

1- They won't interfere easily with the rest of the network.
2- They won't have to ask me to do modification for their test every time (some of the R&D guy have more knowledge then I do in the TCP/IP field).

Quote:

1. number of clients (15),

Crank that up, I'm at more then 21 network connection right now and it's a mess of switches all over the place.

Quote:

2. number of servers.. what type..

Right now I have only one that do everything, I want to add a other one to be more adequate.

Quote:

3. what type of internet connection.. redundant or not

Not but the R&D spoke they'll need external access for their test/equipment eventually (that's why it's optional).

Quote:

4. do you have a corperate WAN connection?

Not sure what to understand the question.

Quote:

5. what is your expected growth in the next 5 years?

If the grow continue at the same slow rate double easy the # of connections.

6. firewall ?

Quote:

For now Hardware firewall is not needed.

For the diagram it's pretty straight foward.

I'll post a image for it today.

 

[Thorn-Blade]

WAN = Wide Area Network… connection back to private network that would also connect to possibly a parent company or other locations for your business.

I assume R&D is going to have their own internet connection? If so, you can have their router connect to a low end switch that only does layer 2 switching. The router could also act as your DHCP server. This could also be accomplished with one layer 3 switch. The cost of one layer 3 switch could be cheaper that buying a router and a switch.

Also keep in mind when you ask for aggregation that is typically for between switches. Your switches don't have to have aggregation support for servers. You can setup a NIC team on a server with no special modification on the switch. We configure our servers to send out traffic on both nics, but return traffic only comes back on the one that advertises it's MAC address.

QOS... I would not worry about QOS with a network this size. This will be beneficial if you are medium to large using VOIP or doing video.

10Gig... I wouldn't worry about 10Gig either. You just don't have the need for it, and it will be expensive. We have close to 300 routers and switches, 220+ access points, right over 10,000 active access layer ports, and we are just now getting into 10gig in our new datacenter. You will do fine using 1 Gig SFP fiber uplinks to all your switches as you grow. Design says if you are using 1 Gig uplinks, you shouldn't be going above 100 Mbits on your client connections. Granted this means you might have to hard code your PCs which causes you more maintenance and over head. I can tell you we are running PCs at 1 Gig with 1 Gig uplinks, and we have not run into any issues yet. (I still do not think this is a good idea though.)

Also keep in mind your internet speed. There is no need dropping the money on trying to get a router that supports Gig if you are only going to have an 10 Mbit internet connection.

I would seriously think about budgeting for some type of firewall though. This is a business, and you are going to be wide open to the outside. You will have the option to run ACLs on your internet router provided on what type you get.

Whatever type of switch you go with, I would get one that has 2 or 4 ports for Gig uplinks for your growth. These could be fiber or copper as we don't know if you are only in one building or two, and how big it is.

 

[Nivis Tigridis]

NB: I know what a WAN is and most of the networking term, I just didn't understood what you meant by Corporate WAN.

From what you've told me, no I won't have that; at least not before a while. The rest of the "company" of the group is scattered all over the world. Doing interconnection would be a nightmare (mainly in Europe where internet connection are WAY slower then the one in the Americas).

Quote:

I assume R&D is going to have their own internet connection?

Not necessarily at the start point, at least it's not in the short term prevision.

Quote:

If so, you can have their router connect to a low end switch that only does layer 2 switching. The router could also act as your DHCP server. This could also be accomplished with one layer 3 switch. The cost of one layer 3 switch could be cheaper that buying a router and a switch.

I all ready have a switch for the R&D, I may also use 1 "home grade" router if they don't need more then that (all ready have bought it and it's Gigalan); we didn't had time to discuss through their need... I'm not even sure if they know themselves (speaking of the R&D dept).

Quote:

Also keep in mind when you ask for aggregation that is typically for between switches. Your switches don't have to have aggregation support for servers. You can setup a NIC team on a server with no special modification on the switch. We configure our servers to send out traffic on both nics, but return traffic only comes back on the one that advertises it's MAC address.

Didn't knew that part, thanks for the head up; like I've said it's optional and was a way to increase bandwidth without too much effort and/or complication.

Quote:

QOS... I would not worry about QOS with a network this size. This will be beneficial if you are medium to large using VOIP or doing video.

I do have a video conference system in the office and I feel it will be more and more use. For now it's on his own internet connection but this will change in a few months.

Quote:

10Gig... I wouldn't worry about 10Gig either. You just don't have the need for it, and it will be expensive.

Agree, but I was thinking at the time, since I go fiber would be an idea trying to go higher at the same time.

Quote:

Also keep in mind your internet speed. There is no need dropping the money on trying to get a router that supports Gig if you are only going to have an 10 Mbit internet connection.

Quote:

Also keep in mind your internet speed.

It's not only internet speed but also the resources on the server, for now we don't use it, outside it's roles, because it's so slow (I push to make it change but no luck yet).

Quote:

I would seriously think about budgeting for some type of firewall though. This is a business, and you are going to be wide open to the outside. You will have the option to run ACLs on your internet router provided on what type you get.

Agree I was planing to start with the router internal firewall for a start, I don't have the time to learn and manage a complex firewall

.

I'll post what I think will pass (budget) and what I would like to have later on.

 

[Thorn-Blade]

Dug up the warranty info on the Procurves for you... 3rd link down in the center.

http://www.procurve.com/customercare...anty/index.htm

 

[Nivis Tigridis]

Here a quick diagram of the network I'll need to start.
I didn't put the clients to keep only what's important in my question.

 

[Thorn-Blade]

What are your thoughts behind the R&D router being in that location? You can remove that router all together by using vlans. You can also make their vlan private if you want. Take a look at this. This design will allow you to use multiple vlans, along with being able to grow with ease in the future.

Since you are small, you can still hook your server and workstations into S1. As your company grows larger, you can migrate those devices off onto their own layer two switch. You can also connect a swtich that is deticated to servers only if you want. This way your server to server traffic such as backups etc is isolated to the server swtich.

Are you looking to buy new with service contracts, or if you would you get used if you could get two or three switches for the same price as one new one?

 

[Thorn-Blade]

Here is an example of how you could add in redundancy if you ever needed it. (That and I just like drawing in Visio.)

 

[Nivis Tigridis]

@Thorn-Blade.

TY for the schematics but I need a router there, R&D need to have access to it without having passing true me to do the setups all the times.

It's because of THEIR request that I've change from VLAN to this setup; if it was up to me I would have use VLAN (did some play around with it before falling back).

NB: I need to speak with them about their real need to check if the "home use" router I've bought to isolate some of their hardware would do the trick for them or not.

BTW the S R&D Switch (standard ("home use gigalan") is all ready bought, just not in use right now...

 

[Thorn-Blade]

You can still use the first diagram, and just tag their router onto the one of your switches. If this is a home brand router, it will be doing dhcp and nat anyway.

I know you said you didn't want to buy Cisco, but used prices have been falling over the last year to year and a half. It will be used, but I also noticed life time warrenty at the bottom. There extended warrenty isn't expensive either. I would deffently verify on the warrenty if you were to call them.

http://www.ciscokits.com/Cisco-3550-48-Switch/

 

[Nivis Tigridis]

@Thorn-Blade

I'll clarify something that I didn't tell before, it's really that I don't want to but Cisco... it's a budget thing; I need to to the most with cost little as possible.

Since there's other options, less costly, I need to follow them if I don't want this thing to back fire at me. It's sad but it's the way the office work... *sigh*

 

[Thorn-Blade]

I am sorry, but I don't think you are going to be able to find what you want in your price range. The cheapest "new" managable switch that does vlans that I could find is $309.00. (Netgear at tigerdirect.)

Same switch on ebay is $285 give or take a few dollars.

 

[Nivis Tigridis]

@Thorn-Blade:

I think you miss understood what I've said, I need the less costly for what I need it to do.

Cisco has a tendency to be pricey because of the name; quality also I must add.

That's why I look toward other manufacturer to get a lower price that will pass better with my superior then Cisco that would be my peace of mind but it will never pass with my superior.

Most of the time I need to make due with inadequate equipment. If I can find Cisco at only a few $ more then the competition for the same thing... I'll go Cisco for sure.

But why are you insisting so much on Cisco?

 

[Thorn-Blade]

I am not insisting on Cisco.. I gave you one option on a Cisco switch, one option on a HP switch, and one option on a Netgear switch. My first suggestion was HP if you look on the previous page due to it being cheaper buying new. I have also given you new and used options.

We still don't know what your budget is or what you think you can get approved.

 

[Nivis Tigridis]

Quote:

I gave you one option on a Cisco switch, one option on a HP switch, and one option on a Netgear switch. My first suggestion was HP if you look on the previous page due to it being cheaper buying new. I have also given you new and used options.

Sorry I may have been a little harsh and confuse today... No hard feeling and I appreciate the help. It's just I never know the boundaries and it's driving me crazy!

Quote:

We still don't know what your budget is or what you think you can get approved.

It may sound weird but I would REALLY like to know my self... for now I try to get the lowest price for what it need to be doing.... My superior never give me budgets until something break and then the budget is "What is needed"... And the price is always too much....

 

[Thorn-Blade]

Don't worry about it... when I get home this afternoon, I will do some more digging..

 

[Nivis Tigridis]

TY and take your time, there's nothing rush here...

I don't want you to feel obligated to help me.

1 thing that would help me in the long run is if I could understand what specification would have in term of impact on the network.

I'll have to reformulate that later on... Right now I'm unable to precise it more then that...

 

[Thorn-Blade]

Here is some data for you to look over to get an idea on some prices....

Layer 3 switches on Newegg.com
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...e=&srchInDesc=

Layer 2 switches on newegg.com
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...e=&srchInDesc=