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lol - let's start with a few small steps.

<Snip to avoid duplication>
Thanks for this, I am learning a lot from your approach.

I will not be able to attempt any of the memory tweaking until the weekend now.

I have also been tinkering replicating the all core overclock with per core overclock and fixed voltages. I managed to get the favorite cores up to x49 and (i think) a 1.27 ish voltage, 0.02 (ish) up from the x48. Passed a CB and Google 30 minute run too.

I have also been trying to get the system to boot with lower DRAM voltages, it won't have it. Anything less than 1.42 yields BD qcode.

Those 10k fans are keeping the VRM's and RAM temps under control, just.

2488551
 
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OK, here goes.

I have put a few hours in and managed a "first pass" at this to see if I could get any results.

I can go back and retest any of these in more detail and grab screenies from the TUF BIOS app (it reports the qcodes).

When stable, my first test is the google memory test, just a 30minute run.



lol - let's start with a few small steps.

First - SAVE your current OC to a save slot or USB. Clrcmos (if you loaded XMP at anytime since the last clrcmos there are settings in place you can't change from within bios) , enter bios, load your saved OC, if it is an XMP OC, load optimzed defaults and reboot, manually enter the cpu OC, do not load XMP!

There are several "paths" here's 3:

Reflashed BIOS and rekeyed all entries, excluding:
XMP profile.
C-STATES



A)

Load the timings I posted earlier for 3733c15 - all except RTLs. Dram Clock = 10. Enter 1.45V VDIMM. Set cache back to auto multi and voltage. Leave Uncore offset at +0.400. Dram speed to 3600. If it posts we are off to the races! (3600C15 IS WAY FASTER THAN 3733C18.)
RAM voltage ranges tested 1.42 to 1.45
Cache back to Auto. No boot. Memory QCODES
Cache and CPU back to Auto. No boot. Memory QCODE errors
DRAM at 2133 and C15, works got to windows, ran tests, got results etc.
Increase to 3000. Could not get a boot



B)

ClrCmos. POST to bios.

Nav to the dram timings and manually enter the Primary timings I posted for 3733c15 15, 15,15, 36 2. (leave RTLs and IOLs and everything else on auto)

VDIMM to 1.45

Dram Freq to 3600

cache multi and voltage to Auto

F10 to save and exit

If it posts do a quick 5 min (300 sec) GSAT test.

Same result as A



C)

1.45V VDIMM, Leave everything as you have it for GSAT stable 3733c18

Lower CAS until it fails POST (the training routine is fairly robust). Q-code BD is the likely error the bios would stall on. If that happens, ClrCmos and reload the OC you saved. Find the lowest CAS value that will post at 1.45V

If you go route C, post back with the min CAS that will post and train to RTLs no more than 2 difference between the channels (eg, like the 61,63,61,63 you posted above)
Same result as A and B


Essentially, what I am finding when changing memory settings:

Sticking with 3600 or 3733:

If I go below C18
OR
If I change timings from 18-22-22-42

I get memory QCODES, or, GSOD instability with google memory test.


It's not all bad news! I did grab a few interesting screenies while testing at default.

This is SIV, default settings during a google run. Note the maximum core voltage at 1.2734.

2488646


Also included HWiNFO to show maximum cache voltage at 0.884.

2488647



With these discoveries is in mind, I tried:

  • All core at 1.2734 (the highest recorded value from SIV). Fail, GSOD during google
  • 2x core x50, rest x48 at 1.2734. Fail, GSOD during google

I'm now testing the following per core overclock:

2 cores at X49 1.256
8 cores at X48 AUTO (yield 1.220. I am assuming that this from CPU core voltage override that we established was lowest value in our earlier testing)

It has passed the 30m google test and failed a 30m RealBench after 9 minutes ...

I'm going back and re-testing x48 all core after BIOS flash.
 

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Bios flash? or Clear CMOS?
 

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It's not doing so bad though, this is where it's at.

CPU x48
Cache x30

3733 / C18 / 18-22-22-42-CR1

CPU 1.22
Cache 1.14

DRAM voltage down to 1.392 (I need to verify cold boot issue resolved)


It's pretty much a clean BIOS now. Optimised defaults, sata and onboard audio disabled, CSM disabled. Most things on auto (apart from previously identified settings). XMP has not been touched. I've got 3x profiles setup. AUTO, X48 all core, X48 per core. Really happy to try a few things if you have any plans.

AIDA:


2488686



Timespy:


Still on the 1st page. I think I could get higher with more cache and maybe 1x core at x50.



I have also been testing a few other things. The kind of changes that would normally yield at least a boot. No joy.

tRFC down to 630, QCODE BD
tREFI up to 29,114, QCODE BD

At this point I would normally focus on the cache to improve latency, Maybe try and get it over x30.

What's the acceptable norm on the cache voltage range?
 

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It's not doing so bad though, this is where it's at.

CPU x48
Cache x30

3733 / C18 / 18-22-22-42-CR1

CPU 1.22
Cache 1.14

DRAM voltage down to 1.392 (I need to verify cold boot issue resolved)


It's pretty much a clean BIOS now. Optimised defaults, sata and onboard audio disabled, CSM disabled. Most things on auto (apart from previously identified settings). XMP has not been touched. I've got 3x profiles setup. AUTO, X48 all core, X48 per core. Really happy to try a few things if you have any plans.

AIDA:


View attachment 2488686


Timespy:


Still on the 1st page. I think I could get higher with more cache and maybe 1x core at x50.



I have also been testing a few other things. The kind of changes that would normally yield at least a boot. No joy.

tRFC down to 630, QCODE BD
tREFI up to 29,114, QCODE BD

At this point I would normally focus on the cache to improve latency, Maybe try and get it over x30.

What's the acceptable norm on the cache voltage range?
I don't think you have B-die, I believe it is a misread on thaiphoon's part. Those XMP timings look more like lower bin Hynix CJR or maybe samsung d die. Maybe that is where your issues stem from.
 

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Asus TUF Mk1, latest rebar BIOS
10900X
Corsair CMW32GX4M4D3600C18
Looking at the RAM kit you mentioned and it's timings 3600 @ 18-22-22-42 , these look like Samsung C-Die chips, install latest version of thaiphoon burner for confirmation. For these chips you need to tune RAM OC in a different way. Need to stay within 1.36V to 1.38V for these as these don't like high voltage. The XMP profile also runs at 1.35V.
 

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Looking at the RAM kit you mentioned and it's timings 3600 @ 18-22-22-42 , these look like Micron E-Die chips, install latest version of thaiphoon burner for confirmation. For these chips you need to tune RAM OC in a different way. Need to stay within 1.36V to 1.38V for these as these don't like high voltage. The XMP profile also runs at 1.35V.
I don't think you have B-die, I believe it is a misread on thaiphoon's part. Those XMP timings look more like lower bin Hynix CJR or maybe samsung d die. Maybe that is where your issues stem from.
Thanks both, Thaiphoon Burner 166 downloaded and is reporting as below:

Samsung
K4A8G085WB-BCPB
8 Gb B-die (Boltzmann / 20 nm) / 1 die


2488721
 

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Thanks both, Thaiphoon Burner 166 downloaded and is reporting as below:

Samsung
K4A8G085WB-BCPB
8 Gb B-die (Boltzmann / 20 nm) / 1 die
Can you post the SPD section of CPU-Z as well as to know which manufacturer it reports for the DRAM ?
 

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Can you post the SPD section of CPU-Z as well as to know which manufacturer it reports for the DRAM ?
Sure, thanks for giving your time on this.

CPU-Z

2488724


AIDA (selected entry appears to be the "auto" timings). 3600 running at 3733


2488725
 

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Definitely not B-Die,. Just thaiphoon reporting the DIMMS incorrectly.
 

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Definitely not B-Die,. Just thaiphoon reporting the DIMMS incorrectly.
Cool, that would certainly explain a lot.

Is there a way we can prove it? Do the SPD timing profiles look different or something like that?
 

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Is there a way we can prove it? Do the SPD timing profiles look different or something like that
Then the only option left is by checking the version number mentioned on the sticks which will indicate the die used. See below for nomenclature :

2488730
 

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Then the only option left is by checking the version number mentioned on the sticks which will indicate the die used. See below for nomenclature :
If they're following the rules, it looks like they are 4.32 / C-Die.

RAM_PHOTO_432.jpg
 

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If they're following the rules, it looks like they are 4.32 / C-Die.
Yea it’s Samsung C-Die and that explains the average overclocking behaviour. These is still some room to overclock. Voltage needs to be within 1.36V as these don’t scale with voltage. Infact they perform well at lower voltages. Check this below thread for more details:

 
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Nice work Guys! I was thinking they were not B-die or were really low bin ICs. C-die sticks are as @Deve5tat0R said. Overclockable but not really gonna give you a "wow" event. And as he said, these are chips where more voltage is detrimental! You can try tuning at under 1.4V but it is gonna be a rabbit hole.
Probably best to work on cache (1.25V is where I'd feel comfortable at - tho it will increase temps).
3733 is nothing to sneeze at. and 61ns latency is certainly fine. For most rigs it's the overall system latency that affects gaming. Down load latency monitor if you think the system seems sluggish. DPCs can really drop anchor on performance.
An alternative is to sell the sticks on the market place and buy a 3600c16 B-die kit. Or even a 3200c14 B-die kit. They are essentially the same.
 

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Nice work Guys! I was thinking they were not B-die or were really low bin ICs. C-die sticks are as @Deve5tat0R said. Overclockable but not really gonna give you a "wow" event. And as he said, these are chips where more voltage is detrimental! You can try tuning at under 1.4V but it is gonna be a rabbit hole.
Probably best to work on cache (1.25V is where I'd feel comfortable at - tho it will increase temps).
3733 is nothing to sneeze at. and 61ns latency is certainly fine. For most rigs it's the overall system latency that affects gaming. Down load latency monitor if you think the system seems sluggish. DPCs can really drop anchor on performance.
An alternative is to sell the sticks on the market place and buy a 3600c16 B-die kit. Or even a 3200c14 B-die kit. They are essentially the same.
Indeed, yes. Good work all round people. Thanks for all of your help and the time you took with your replies. As much as I enjoyed trying to figure this out for myself, I really should have asked here first!

Now that I know they are not actually B die, I am very happy with the overclock. A stable 3733 out of 3600 RAM works for me. It's an overclock, right! I think the CPU could probably go higher on the * cores. I'll have a go at the cache now, let's see if I can get a stable x32.


Now, interestingly, I do have a set of these on their way over from Corsair as an RMA ... i wonder which version they will be?


I really like the no nonsense Corsair warranty. Equal or equivalent replacement works well. The 4x4Gb 3200 I sent back are being replaced with 4x8Gb
 

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Indeed, yes. Good work all round people. Thanks for all of your help and the time you took with your replies. As much as I enjoyed trying to figure this out for myself, I really should have asked here first!

Now that I know they are not actually B die, I am very happy with the overclock. A stable 3733 out of 3600 RAM works for me. It's an overclock, right! I think the CPU could probably go higher on the * cores. I'll have a go at the cache now, let's see if I can get a stable x32.


Now, interestingly, I do have a set of these on their way over from Corsair as an RMA ... i wonder which version they will be?


I really like the no nonsense Corsair warranty. Equal or equivalent replacement works well. The 4x4Gb 3200 I sent back are being replaced with 4x8Gb
The corsair kit 3200 16-18-18 is probably hynix CJR. All Hynix CJR 3200 with those timings I have been able to do 3600 17-19-19 no problem with trfc between 500-560 (this depended on the kit). With that kit and those timings you will prob get around 56-58ns latency compared to your current kit and similar bandwidth.

If you want maximum performance B-die is the way to go. Tuned X299 system with tuned b die should get you sub 50ns latency and around 115-123Gb read spreads. 3800-4000 DDR4 CL15.

My main rig I have 9980XE with 4X8GB G.Skill 3200 CL14 overclocked to 4000 CL15-15-15. It took me a few months to finally arrive at that point.

Now you can achieve really good latency with some old school 4gigabit ddr4 dies. My daughter's X299 rig (7800X) I have an old school hynix MFR 4X4GB kit I bought on ebay for 50 bucks. This ram was meant for X99, so it is not able to get high frequencies. However you can tighten timings pretty well. Her current 24/7 OC is 3200 CL15-16-16 TRFC 320 TREFI maxed out (32000) I get a latency of 56ns but suffer on bandwidth because of the frequency of only 3200 and get 80000 on read spreads. All with only 1.275 dram voltage. MFR is weird and has voltage holes. Anything between 1.28 and 1.5volts the computer won't boot, but boots up normal at 1.55. Now at 1.55 l volts running a CPU strap of 125 I can choose 3333 RAM speed I can run CL 14-15-15 280 TRFC. I get low 55ns aida latency. But don't know how long the ram stick would last at this speed so I am running 3200 @ 1.275 volts.

There is also Samsung 4 gigabit E die, works extremely well and can almost match b die, can also be had every now and then cheap on ebay. Almost all 4GB DDR4 stick that were rated 3600 and above were e die. The 3600 were usually 17-18-18 and the 3733 or 3866 sticks were 18-19-19 or something along those lines. I had an old Team Group Xtreem kit that could do 3800 CL 16-17-17 with sub 400 TRFC. Not quite b die but a hell of a lot better than everything else. I have seen a member here running a X299 system 3733 CL 16-18-18 TRFC 340 running a samsung e die 4x4gb kit getting 51ns latency and high bandwidth.

The options I listed above are if you want good latency cheap, drawback is you are only running a 4X4GB Kit. They did have dual rank of them but they are no longer in production and are hard to spot. I guess MFR would be easy since they are mostly low voltage like 1.2 17-17-17 2800. But I would rather get a CJR kit.


A few days ago decided to buy a 4X8GB DDR4 3600 CL 16-18-18 micron e die for my daughters rig. We will see how this overclock, everything I have read say they are probably the next best thing after b die except horrible TRFC. Extremely difficult for any kit to do sub 600. I receive it on Wednesday so we will see how they do.

Once I am on my computer I will grab screen shots of the aida runs
 

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The corsair kit 3200 16-18-18 is probably hynix CJR. All Hynix CJR 3200 with those timings I have been able to do 3600 17-19-19 no problem with trfc between 500-560 (this depended on the kit). With that kit and those timings you will prob get around 56-58ns latency compared to your current kit and similar bandwidth.

If you want maximum performance B-die is the way to go. Tuned X299 system with tuned b die should get you sub 50ns latency and around 115-123Gb read spreads. 3800-4000 DDR4 CL15.

My main rig I have 9980XE with 4X8GB G.Skill 3200 CL14 overclocked to 4000 CL15-15-15. It took me a few months to finally arrive at that point.

Now you can achieve really good latency with some old school 4gigabit ddr4 dies. My daughter's X299 rig (7800X) I have an old school hynix MFR 4X4GB kit I bought on ebay for 50 bucks. This ram was meant for X99, so it is not able to get high frequencies. However you can tighten timings pretty well. Her current 24/7 OC is 3200 CL15-16-16 TRFC 320 TREFI maxed out (32000) I get a latency of 56ns but suffer on bandwidth because of the frequency of only 3200 and get 80000 on read spreads. All with only 1.275 dram voltage. MFR is weird and has voltage holes. Anything between 1.28 and 1.5volts the computer won't boot, but boots up normal at 1.55. Now at 1.55 l volts running a CPU strap of 125 I can choose 3333 RAM speed I can run CL 14-15-15 280 TRFC. I get low 55ns aida latency. But don't know how long the ram stick would last at this speed so I am running 3200 @ 1.275 volts.

There is also Samsung 4 gigabit E die, works extremely well and can almost match b die, can also be had every now and then cheap on ebay. Almost all 4GB DDR4 stick that were rated 3600 and above were e die. The 3600 were usually 17-18-18 and the 3733 or 3866 sticks were 18-19-19 or something along those lines. I had an old Team Group Xtreem kit that could do 3800 CL 16-17-17 with sub 400 TRFC. Not quite b die but a hell of a lot better than everything else. I have seen a member here running a X299 system 3733 CL 16-18-18 TRFC 340 running a samsung e die 4x4gb kit getting 51ns latency and high bandwidth.

The options I listed above are if you want good latency cheap, drawback is you are only running a 4X4GB Kit. They did have dual rank of them but they are no longer in production and are hard to spot. I guess MFR would be easy since they are mostly low voltage like 1.2 17-17-17 2800. But I would rather get a CJR kit.


A few days ago decided to buy a 4X8GB DDR4 3600 CL 16-18-18 micron e die for my daughters rig. We will see how this overclock, everything I have read say they are probably the next best thing after b die except horrible TRFC. Extremely difficult for any kit to do sub 600. I receive it on Wednesday so we will see how they do.

Once I am on my computer I will grab screen shots of the aida runs
Fascinating stuff. I might revisit improving latency by changing the ram one day, maybe when prices aren't so silly. I'm really quite happy with the result now that I know it's not B die, that's the thing that was bugging me. I had read so much about how easy it was to overclock

I've got an awful lot to catch up on. I've come from an RVE X99/6900K and I have ended up with two X299 systems.

My "other" system is a Strix X299 with a 7800X and a 4x4Gb kit of Corsair Vengeance 3600 (CMK16GX4M4B3600C18 v4.24). These are a lot more "flexible" than this kit. If they were 32Gb i'd be running with them for sure.

The 7800 did not push very far at all, I think I ended up at x45, maybe less. I seem to be hitting temperature issues. I will get it delidded at some point to "fix" that.

I will post some comparative AIDA's at some point.
 

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Fascinating stuff. I might revisit improving latency by changing the ram one day, maybe when prices aren't so silly. I'm really quite happy with the result now that I know it's not B die, that's the thing that was bugging me. I had read so much about how easy it was to overclock

I've got an awful lot to catch up on. I've come from an RVE X99/6900K and I have ended up with two X299 systems.

My "other" system is a Strix X299 with a 7800X and a 4x4Gb kit of Corsair Vengeance 3600 (CMK16GX4M4B3600C18 v4.24). These are a lot more "flexible" than this kit. If they were 32Gb i'd be running with them for sure.

The 7800 did not push very far at all, I think I ended up at x45, maybe less. I seem to be hitting temperature issues. I will get it delidded at some point to "fix" that.

I will post some comparative AIDA's at some point.
Yeah my daughter's 7800X is delidded, purchased it delidded and lapped from another member. Running it at 4.6 on a 4 heatpipe air cooler, don't think that would be possible if it weren't delidded.

Your Corsair 4x4GB kit might be 4 gigabit samsung e die, 18-19-19 seems like it would. Maybe with 1.4-1.45 volts it could do 16-18-18 with a sub 360 TRFC. If it can maintain a frequency and low TRFC it will definitely be e-die.

Below are the screenshots I was talking about in the earlier thread.

This is my main system, 9980XE @ 4.8 / 3.2 cache / DDR4 4000 on a Asrock Taichi CLX.

2488818


Daughter's rig, 7800X @ 4.6 / 3.2 Cache / DDR4 3200 on a Asus Deluxe II

2488819


Here is the other member's ram settings. Running 3733 @ 16-18-18 and a TRFC of 300. From what I remember only samsung e-die can achieve that low of TRFC with that high a frequency.

2488822


2488823
 
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