Ira-K one question if I may...

1373 Views 19 Replies 6 Participants Last post by ChielScape, Mar 11, 2009

zipdogso

Discussion Starter · Mar 2, 2009

Do I remember correctly..you have a 437w TEC.
What do you use to power it ?

Why do I ask ?
It has been bought to my notice that the SE-600-24 is only 25amps.
The frozenCPU 437w apparently has a Imax of 32.8amps
So even if you turn the pot right down to 22v the TEC still draws 26.5 so incredibly...it appears you can't use this monster to power the 437w...unless as everyone seems to be suggesting the 437w is not a 437w at all.

If it really is a 437w after looking through the meanwell site the only option is SE-600-15 or the new SE 450-15 and turning the pot up to 16.5v which would only get you about 60% of the Qcmax after allowing for the lowered voltage and the heat transfer inefficiencies.

1 - 20 of 20 Posts

ira-k

· #2 · Mar 2, 2009

The 437W is really only a 25 amp TEC 437/360-370W. Take a look at the under volting charts..Under-Volting Charts ..The 25 amp version is the correct one I believe. I use a SE-600-25.

This post from 2005 in the under volting charts post #32 ;

[QUOTEFYI, Wintsch Labs also has 2 ratings on their big peltier.

Th = 50C
Qmax = 437.3W
I(Qmax) = 32.8A
I(dTmax) = 25.2A
Umax = 26.7V
dT = 74.5

Th = 27C
Qmax = 376.8W
I(Qmax) = 30.4A
I(dTmax) = 23.7A
Umax = 24.8V
dT = 66.0

The advertised maximum cooling rating of the Dominator Pro when first released was 360W. After a brief period of time, it was advertised to be 437W with no hardware change to account for it other than quoting its rating based on the Th = 50C spec which I believe is nothing more than technical hype.

In general terms, Qmax @ Th = 27C, which is most likely the most realistic rating to use as a measure of expected performance, is in the range of 60% to 62% of the maxiumum input power for the 226W, 245W and 360W peltiers.[/QUOTE]

So its just back to the hot side rating scam 27C or 50C. 437W is a 360-370 at TH 27. Somewhere around that anyway.

Its easier to just use the rating that the manufacturer sticks on them, I used to explain 27C and 50C ratings to the new guys but it confused them more then helped them, pointless really since there are only 3 TEC in general use for a CPU, 226W,320W and 437W. But I always link them to the "Under-Volting Charts" and the "Melcor Thermoelectric Handbook" that way if they are really interested in all that they have the answers to almost any questions they may have.

zipdogso

Discussion Starter · #3 · Mar 2, 2009

Well that makes perfect sense to me, many thanks.

Good job Ebay haven't cottoned on to that one - but I believe they have far east suppliers which generally use the 27Âº stats.

dizzy4

· #4 · Mar 2, 2009

Thanks for the info!

ira-k

· #5 · Mar 2, 2009

Hey NP, eBay does do that to, take the eBay 320W/240, when I first bought one they were 270W which was overrated, then they went up to 320W and now there 400W.He used to give both the 27C and 50C and quit doing that about 2 years ago.

Thanks Dizzy, Heres the "TEC Bible" if you haven't ever seen it.

.Melcor - Thermoelectric Handbook

See less See more

Ultrasonic2 (muffy)

· #6 · Mar 9, 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by ira-k

View Post

The 437W is really only a 25 amp TEC 437/360-370W. Take a look at the under volting charts..Under-Volting Charts ..The 25 amp version is the correct one I believe. I use a SE-600-25.

This post from 2005 in the under volting charts post #32 ;

, Wintsch Labs also has 2 ratings on their big peltier.

Th = 50C
Qmax = 437.3W
I(Qmax) = 32.8A
I(dTmax) = 25.2A
Umax = 26.7V
dT = 74.5

Th = 27C
Qmax = 376.8W
I(Qmax) = 30.4A
I(dTmax) = 23.7A
Umax = 24.8V
dT = 66.0

The advertised maximum cooling rating of the Dominator Pro when first released was 360W. After a brief period of time, it was advertised to be 437W with no hardware change to account for it other than quoting its rating based on the Th = 50C spec which I believe is nothing more than technical hype.

In general terms, Qmax @ Th = 27C, which is most likely the most realistic rating to use as a measure of expected performance, is in the range of 60% to 62% of the maxiumum input power for the 226W, 245W and 360W peltiers.

So its just back to the hot side rating scam 27C or 50C. 437W is a 360-370 at TH 27. Somewhere around that anyway.

Its easier to just use the rating that the manufacturer sticks on them, I used to explain 27C and 50C ratings to the new guys but it confused them more then helped them, pointless really since there are only 3 TEC in general use for a CPU, 226W,320W and 437W. But I always link them to the "Under-Volting Charts" and the "Melcor Thermoelectric Handbook" that way if they are really interested in all that they have the answers to almost any questions they may have.[/QUOTE]

it's good to be back ... so i short the 437watt tec does not exsist

See less See more

ira-k

· #7 · Mar 9, 2009

Quote:

it's good to be back ... so i short the 437watt tec does not exsist

Sure it does, at a 50C hot side.

See less See more

ChielScape

· #8 · Mar 9, 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by ira-k

View Post

Sure it does, at a 50C hot side.

and how hot does your hot side actually run?

See less See more

2

flak-spammer

· #9 · Mar 9, 2009

What is the Qmax at 27C hotside? That's what I wonder.

ira-k

· #10 · Mar 9, 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by flak-spammer

View Post

What is the Qmax at 27C hotside? That's what I wonder.

Its around 350-370W or so, but thats still the highest Qmax TEC we can get easily.

See less See more

ChielScape

· #11 · Mar 9, 2009

yeah, but the reason i asked my question, IF your tec actually runs closer to 50C than 27C hot side.. wouldnt the 437W figure actually be the more accurate one? why do you stick to the 27C figures so much? what makes those the "true" numbers?

ira-k

· #12 · Mar 9, 2009

If your liquid cooling your hot side you add 2-5C to your room ambient to get TEC hot side number, thats a rough way of doing it but its close.

ChielScape

· #13 · Mar 9, 2009

you mean theres a 5C delta between hot side and ambient, while there are 40C deltas between CPU and ambient on normal WC? i have a hard time believing theres a mere 5C over the rad + coolant + block...

ira-k

· #14 · Mar 9, 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChielScape

View Post

you mean theres a 5C delta between hot side and ambient, while there are 40C deltas between CPU and ambient on normal WC? i have a hard time believing theres a mere 5C over the rad + coolant + block...

Believe what you like.

.But I didn't say anything about deltas, and I've never seen a CPU with a 40C delta between ambient and CPU, well maybe if your using Koolgarbage WC'ing gear you might.

See less See more

3

zipdogso

Discussion Starter · #15 · Mar 10, 2009

I hate the 50Âº stats 'cause they make everything look better than it is, to use the 27Âº is nearer to "reallife" and gives the idea that you might actually get a bit better performance.

That's the One reason I like the ferrotec calculator is you can put your own values in.

But as we have shown 50Âº skews all variables and the Imax is quoted higher than it really is. Since the price of PSU's is generally proportional to the current they can produce, it is not great to think you need a bigger supply than you really need. That's the issue with the new swiftech MCW7000-T.

I can't really believe the swiftech have stepped in a load of :turd: by accidentally having a unit that requires the next PSU up from the generally excepted "big one" but nor can I believe they would of deliberately inflated the current draw by quoting 50Âº stats.

On the face of though 417w is probably a big overkill on a i7 when you consider they are unlikely to use all 4 cores perhaps as Ira says it is the 50Âº....and here we go round and round.
I did send Gabe a PM the first day it appeared but he either hasn't been back, hasn't looked at his inbox, or generally doesn't want to comment.
He did say they were a custom TEC and 417 is a weird value that's why I was originally inclined to believe the figures correct. But if it is custom why they go over 25 amps.... here we go round and round again....

Looks like we will have to wait till they are relaesed...so time in the next 5 weeks.

See less See more

Ultrasonic2 (muffy)

· #16 · Mar 11, 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChielScape

View Post

you mean theres a 5C delta between hot side and ambient, while there are 40C deltas between CPU and ambient on normal WC? i have a hard time believing theres a mere 5C over the rad + coolant + block...

i Agree with you Chielscape . 5c delta to the surface of the tec is unrealistic especially when considering it's passing 500-800 watts of heat.

i think if the deltas are that low we would all be getting better temps than what we do.

See less See more

ira-k

· #17 · Mar 11, 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultrasonic2 (muffy)

View Post

i Agree with you Chielscape . 5c delta to the surface of the tec is unrealistic especially when considering it's passing 500-800 watts of heat.

i think if the deltas are that low we would all be getting better temps than what we do.

The hot side is the temp of the cooling solution on it. I get a rad out of 2.5C, I would hope anyone direct die WC'ing could do the same or better. 2.5C + ambient will get me pretty close. Add a couple of C for the TIM and base if you like.

It will be a lot closer to the 27C TH then the 50C TH, thats for sure.

Hey I do get good temp's, for a TEC anyway, -20 to -30 idle and 5 or 6C with a couple of hours Prime load.

..Honestly I wouldn't even suggest TEC for much of anything anymore, these new i7 are running pretty hot, with the E8### chips they were doing great, but that small window is closing.

EDIT: Well come to think about it they do the 27/50C rating with no load most of the time. Yeah that may be off at that. But still the 50C TH rating is totally unrealistic.

See less See more

3

ChielScape

· #18 · Mar 11, 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultrasonic2 (muffy)

View Post

i Agree with you Chielscape . 5c delta to the surface of the tec is unrealistic especially when considering it's passing 500-800 watts of heat.

i think if the deltas are that low we would all be getting better temps than what we do.

yeah... I'd load 25, not 45.

See less See more

ira-k

· #19 · Mar 11, 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChielScape

View Post

yeah... I'd load 25, not 45.

How are you loading at 45C when you said you were getting a 40C delta between chip and load?

Quote:

you mean theres a 5C delta between hot side and ambient, while there are 40C deltas between CPU and ambient on normal WC? i have a hard time believing theres a mere 5C over the rad + coolant + block...

A 40C delta would put you at around a 65C load with normaL ambient temp's of 25C or so.

Really since I'm getting a 2.5C rad out temp with a 5-600W load I probably am pulling my hot side down around 30C TH or so.

The only way you would get near a 40-50C TH is using some really lousy WC'ing gear or a HSF.

See less See more

ChielScape

· #20 · Mar 11, 2009

i just didnt OC it enough to hit 65.. sue me

1 - 20 of 20 Posts

This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.