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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Is the LSI SAS1068E hardware or software raid?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdoublejj View Post

would that be the second type listed here?: http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/hard-drives/sata/RAID_Guide/RAID_Controller_Types

How do i know if there is a firmware update for it? what kind of short comings/performance hit should i expect?

ALSO: i've been looking at this, http://lime-technology.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=006dea566604f62ad93083e9ec0592bc&topic=12767.msg121129#msg121129

I'm not certain but, it looks like an upgraded firmware over stock.
Well, what do you want to do? Intel's firmware RAID controller is pretty good for RAID0.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I wanted raid 6 which it doesn't do so i'm looking at a raid 5. i was playing with a raid calculator, i think raid 6 and 5 end up with more space than 10/1+0 and still have redundancy, obviously 6 has more redundancy than 5. I'm not sure i'm gonna move my OS to it but, i'll store my servers and VMs there and maybe 1 day a file server. i'm also looking at making a super basic ultra small low usage web page. or i probably could have just said it's my toy/experiment/test bed.
redface.gif


Oh has any one mixed and matched same size drives? i've heard of few instances on server raids where it has worked with no issues.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdoublejj View Post

I wanted raid 6 which it doesn't do so i'm looking at a raid 5. i was playing with a raid calculator, i think raid 6 and 5 end up with more space than 10/1+0 and still have redundancy, obviously 6 has more redundancy than 5. I'm not sure i'm gonna move my OS to it but, i'll store my servers and VMs there and maybe 1 day a file server. i'm also looking at making a super basic ultra small low usage web page. or i probably could have just said it's my toy/experiment/test bed.
redface.gif


Oh has any one mixed and matched same size drives? i've heard of few instances on server raids where it has worked with no issues.
Don't do RAID 5...nope, nu-uh, no. RAID 5 (in a typical hardware/firmware perspective) is past it's usefulness for standard storage systems. RAID 5 is alright for arrays under a few TB, but if you're building a dedicated storage system, i would highly highly highly recommend RAID 10. You will get better performance, better redundancy, and it's less complicated (no parity calculations; just stripping and mirror). RAID 10 will give you so much better write speeds than RAID 5, and random I/O will also be much better. (honestly, a 4 drive RAID 5 vs a 4 drive RAID 10 -- either will saturate a gigabit link)

RAID 6 get's a severe write penalty, which is why I wouldn't use it. I'd consider a RAID 60 for a large low-performance backup system, but not something that I used for my primary storage.

To your original question, the LSI SAS1068 is not a RAID controller, or a HBA. SAS1068 is the model of the chip (aka, I/O Controller) that is used by some circa-2008 HBA's, such as the Dell SAS 5/iR. The SAS1068E does not provide any RAID functionality, as it just provides 8 SAS channels. So a LSI SAS1068 by itself, well it won't even plug into a PCIe slot since it's technically just an IC chip.
smile.gif


If you want quality hardware RAID with a recent controller (that supports more up to 128 drives with the use of a SAS expander, and supports drives larger than 2TB), I can recommend the LSI MegaRAID 9260 or 9261 series (9261 is low profile, and is what I use). I have the LSI MegaRAID 9261-8i, which means it has 8 internal drive connections via 2 SFF-8087 ports (miniSAS ports). There is also a 4i version which only has 1 SFF-8087 port.
The 8i version of these cards run around $350 new, and as low as $200 used. The 4i version you can get used for $120-150. BBU (Battery Backup Unit) for the controller runs around $50-75, and definitely worth it. These cards support RAID 0, 1, 5, 6, 50, 60, and 10. They will not do JBOD so do not get this if you want to use software RAID (well, technically you can set up each drive as a single drive RAID 0 and pass that to your RAID software, but that's kinda stupid -- and a waste of money). Add on a SAS Expander (HP, Intel, and Chenbro make great SAS Expanders -- but I'd recommend the Chenbro if you go with a LSI-based RAID chip because the Chenbro uses a LSI I/O Controller ship; LSI SASIIX36 chip -- get the HP SAS Expander if you go with a HP RAID Controller such as the P410).

The MegaRAID storage manager software for LSI RAID Controllers is top notch, and runs on Windows or Linux (even BSD and Solaris, I think). So with hardware RAID, you can use any OS you want.

If you want to do software RAID, I'd just get some cheap SAS HBAs such as IBM ServeRAID m1015 or Supermicro AOC-SASLP-MV8.

To answer your question about mixing drives, it's typically frowned upon using different model drives in the same RAID array (at least for hardware RAID). You can use different drives on the same controller, but it's best to keep them in separate arrays. Gigabyte Boundary is a term used sometimes to will allow a RAID card to support mixing drives that aren't the exact same time, but this is more common in firmware RAID (such as the AMD) than hardware RAID.

I know everyone is on a budget, but storage and your data is something you don't want to worry about. Take your time planning, save for what you really want, and do it right (quality hardware/drives, matching drives, etc).
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Okay Raid 10 point taken. I assume all that about raid 10 still applies for raids under a few TB since that's what i'll be doing. stuffs expensive man.

So that's an interesting take. if you look some links all the reverences i've seen is of it in machines that offer raid. as it stand i can do raids, 0, 1 ,5 ,10 and... you know lets start at the beginning....

http://www.overclock.net/t/1445065/got-this-from-the-recycle-bin

I got that for free it's what i have to worth with. I in now way have any money. you can also get a nice look at the motherboard model too. Not snow ball's chance i can afford a true hardware raid. i know there much better for sure.

When i different drives i mean , like a 73 gb 10K Hitachi and say a 73gb 10k dell. same RPM same exact size often times even the same amount of cache just different brands. what about that?

If raid 10 is still faster than raid 5 Hsot based, software or otherwise i can at least do that.

Also i'll be lucky if can find some used drives. i'll never be able to get any drives over a few hundred GB for sure. If i had any budget i could do better for sure. i'll definitely see about saving up if don't get some freebie drives first.

also i still don't what drive sleds i need. you seem to have experience maybe

http://www.overclock.net/t/1469097/what-kind-of-hdd-bay-cady-is-this-and-ordoe-it-take-require
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdoublejj View Post

Okay Raid 10 point taken. I assume all that about raid 10 still applies for raids under a few TB since that's what i'll be doing. stuffs expensive man.

So that's an interesting take. if you look some links all the reverences i've seen is of it in machines that offer raid. as it stand i can do raids, 0, 1 ,5 ,10 and... you know lets start at the beginning....

http://www.overclock.net/t/1445065/got-this-from-the-recycle-bin

I got that for free it's what i have to worth with. I in now way have any money. you can also get a nice look at the motherboard model too. Not snow ball's chance i can afford a true hardware raid. i know there much better for sure.

When i different drives i mean , like a 73 gb 10K Hitachi and say a 73gb 10k dell. same RPM same exact size often times even the same amount of cache just different brands. what about that?

If raid 10 is still faster than raid 5 Hsot based, software or otherwise i can at least do that.

Also i'll be lucky if can find some used drives. i'll never be able to get any drives over a few hundred GB for sure. If i had any budget i could do better for sure. i'll definitely see about saving up if don't get some freebie drives first.

also i still don't what drive sleds i need. you seem to have experience maybe

http://www.overclock.net/t/1469097/what-kind-of-hdd-bay-cady-is-this-and-ordoe-it-take-require
I know money runs most decisions, especially when it comes to home computers/servers. If you decide to use RAID 5 with an onboard firmware controller (such as the Intel RST, or AMD's whatever), I wish you the best. I've always had bad experiences with that and would never recommend using parity based RAID with a firmware controller. Now you could have a completely different experience, but I avoid firmware RAID now. RAID 10 on the firmware RAID should be fine because there is no parity calculations that your CPU will have to do.

Everything I said about RAID 10 applies to any size array, in my opinion and experiences. I got approval today for a new project at work, with a hefty price tag of $250k. $50k of that is for two servers, HP DL380 with 25 600GB 10K SAS drives. For the application I'm building out (Splunk), I will have 22 of those drives in RAID 10 for the data, 2 in RAID 1 for the OS, and 1 global spare. I fought and fought for this setup instead of using SAN storage (our server guys love to over-provision I/O on our SAN). With RAID 10 (in such a large array especially) I will have the most optimal performance possible.

That's a really nice case on that freebie, by the way. I remember seeing that when you posted it and think I drooled a little. Me personally? I'd save up for a hardware RAID controller and pop in there, but if that's not an option I'd recommend software RAID (ZFS, or something like drive pooling software).

Regarding the different drives, even though those are both 73GB 10K drives, they may not be the EXACT same size. However, if the Dell drive is an OEM Hitachi drive, then it would probably work fine.

Regarding the drive trays, I'm not sure. Supermicro and Norco are the only trays I've worked with other than Dell, IBM, HP, and EMC. Is there no model numbers on the back? Whatever it is, it looks nice (looks solid). It may be a case of finding some cheap 2.5" trays on eBay and find out through trial and error.
If you like 73GB 10K drives, you can get them for $10-15 each on ebay, shipped. often they will come with trays.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-72gb-10k-SAS-2-5-Hard-Drive-with-Tray-376597-001-/231135531256?pt=US_Internal_Hard_Disk_Drives&hash=item35d0c050f8
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-5-432320-001-434916-507284-Hard-Drive-Caddy-HP-DL380-G5-G6-2-5-SAS-Tray-/251452299222?pt=US_Drive_Bay_Caddies&hash=item3a8bb997d6
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LOT-OF-2-IBM-ST9146803SS-Seagate-73GB-10K-SAS-RPM-2-5-with-The-Tray-/251464721952?pt=US_External_Hard_Disk_Drives&hash=item3a8c772620

Just an overthought, but if you only had those 8 2.5" bays to work with for a storage box, and you were looking at 10K SAS drives...I'd probably save for a RAID Controller (something around $100-125) and get 146GB or 300GB 10K drives from eBay. 8 of the 146GB in a RAID 5 would give you around 1TB of storage. Not ideal, in my opinion, but if you are on a limited budget and want to work with what you have, might be worth it. I can tell you that you will have some awesome IOPS though. Somewhere around 1000 IOPS which is fantastic.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by tycoonbob View Post

I know money runs most decisions, especially when it comes to home computers/servers. If you decide to use RAID 5 with an onboard firmware controller (such as the Intel RST, or AMD's whatever), I wish you the best. I've always had bad experiences with that and would never recommend using parity based RAID with a firmware controller. Now you could have a completely different experience, but I avoid firmware RAID now. RAID 10 on the firmware RAID should be fine because there is no parity calculations that your CPU will have to do.

Everything I said about RAID 10 applies to any size array, in my opinion and experiences. I got approval today for a new project at work, with a hefty price tag of $250k. $50k of that is for two servers, HP DL380 with 25 600GB 10K SAS drives. For the application I'm building out (Splunk), I will have 22 of those drives in RAID 10 for the data, 2 in RAID 1 for the OS, and 1 global spare. I fought and fought for this setup instead of using SAN storage (our server guys love to over-provision I/O on our SAN). With RAID 10 (in such a large array especially) I will have the most optimal performance possible.

That's a really nice case on that freebie, by the way. I remember seeing that when you posted it and think I drooled a little. Me personally? I'd save up for a hardware RAID controller and pop in there, but if that's not an option I'd recommend software RAID (ZFS, or something like drive pooling software).

Regarding the different drives, even though those are both 73GB 10K drives, they may not be the EXACT same size. However, if the Dell drive is an OEM Hitachi drive, then it would probably work fine.

Regarding the drive trays, I'm not sure. Supermicro and Norco are the only trays I've worked with other than Dell, IBM, HP, and EMC. Is there no model numbers on the back? Whatever it is, it looks nice (looks solid). It may be a case of finding some cheap 2.5" trays on eBay and find out through trial and error.
If you like 73GB 10K drives, you can get them for $10-15 each on ebay, shipped. often they will come with trays.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-72gb-10k-SAS-2-5-Hard-Drive-with-Tray-376597-001-/231135531256?pt=US_Internal_Hard_Disk_Drives&hash=item35d0c050f8
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-5-432320-001-434916-507284-Hard-Drive-Caddy-HP-DL380-G5-G6-2-5-SAS-Tray-/251452299222?pt=US_Drive_Bay_Caddies&hash=item3a8bb997d6
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LOT-OF-2-IBM-ST9146803SS-Seagate-73GB-10K-SAS-RPM-2-5-with-The-Tray-/251464721952?pt=US_External_Hard_Disk_Drives&hash=item3a8c772620

Just an overthought, but if you only had those 8 2.5" bays to work with for a storage box, and you were looking at 10K SAS drives...I'd probably save for a RAID Controller (something around $100-125) and get 146GB or 300GB 10K drives from eBay. 8 of the 146GB in a RAID 5 would give you around 1TB of storage. Not ideal, in my opinion, but if you are on a limited budget and want to work with what you have, might be worth it. I can tell you that you will have some awesome IOPS though. Somewhere around 1000 IOPS which is fantastic.
I think given the information you've given me RAID 10 sounds like the way to go if not just fro lower CPU usage alone. I also put those Ebay links on my watch list. Since your suggesting hardware raid and pointed out that i have 8 slots and not 12 (what was i thinking?
blinksmiley.gif
) what do you think of this PREC 5i?

http://www.overclock.net/t/1458413/2-samsung-spinpoint-500gb-hd-2-1tb-hd-wd-raptor-10k-rpm-hd-dell-perc-5i-controller

I'd still need to get a SAS break cable though huh?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdoublejj View Post

I think given the information you've given me RAID 10 sounds like the way to go if not just fro lower CPU usage alone. I also put those Ebay links on my watch list. Since your suggesting hardware raid and pointed out that i have 8 slots and not 12 (what was i thinking?
blinksmiley.gif
) what do you think of this PREC 5i?

http://www.overclock.net/t/1458413/2-samsung-spinpoint-500gb-hd-2-1tb-hd-wd-raptor-10k-rpm-hd-dell-perc-5i-controller

I'd still need to get a SAS break cable though huh?
Skip the 5i and go with the PERC 6i. Not that much more but better all around. The one thing to know about the 6i (and even the 5i) is that drives larger than 2TB won't work.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·

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That 2TB limit is going to be an issue though...

The sweet spot for HDDs in terms of space/dollar is 3TB now.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
A 3TB drive is over 199 USD. i'll probably just some 73gb or 146gb drives a few time fir like around 15 bucks or maybe some freebies. ill never be able to afford big boy drives even if i save. also i could never need more than 1-3TB after raid. at least not this time. i only have 1x 64gb VM and a few small game servers. with an acceptable raid i would ave room for more VM if ever need be or maybe a small file server or what not. i think for those a uses a 1 or 2 TB total would work well.

So far i'm learning a lot, so thanks for that guys. guess i can't rep duckie.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdoublejj View Post

A 3TB drive is over 199 USD. i'll probably just some 73gb or 146gb drives a few time fir like around 15 bucks or maybe some freebies. ill never be able to afford big boy drives even if i save. also i could never need more than 1-3TB after raid. at least not this time. i only have 1x 64gb VM and a few small game servers. with an acceptable raid i would ave room for more VM if ever need be or maybe a small file server or what not. i think for those a uses a 1 or 2 TB total would work well.

So far i'm learning a lot, so thanks for that guys. guess i can't rep duckie.
Huh? You can find 3TB HDDs for $90-100 easily. The Seagate 7200.14 is $100 on Newegg right now.

150GB for $15 is a rip-off since that is 10GB/$1.
A ~3000GB for $100 is 30GB/$1.
A ~2000GB for $75 is 26GB/$1.

If you only need 1-2TBs.... then get 2x2TB in RAID0.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Sorry duckie but, RAID 0 is a definite no go. I haven't had any good luck with RAID 0 and 1 as far software raids go. think i'll get the PERC 6i. I was thinking getting some cheap LOTs for 73/72 or 146gb SAS 10K drives. However i didn't think of 7200 RPM drives. i'm assuming we are talking about 2.5" 7200 RPM drives, in which case that's tempting deal specially if the price goes down by the time i can get some drives. I like the idea of running some sort of multi drive raid, this would be a good way to get acquainted with RAID and have some fun at the same time.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdoublejj View Post

Sorry duckie but, RAID 0 is a definite no go. I haven't had any good luck with RAID 0 and 1 as far software raids go. think i'll get the PERC 6i. I was thinking getting some cheap LOTs for 73/72 or 146gb SAS 10K drives. However i didn't think of 7200 RPM drives. i'm assuming we are talking about 2.5" 7200 RPM drives, in which case that's tempting deal specially if the price goes down by the time i can get some drives. I like the idea of running some sort of multi drive raid, this would be a good way to get acquainted with RAID and have some fun at the same time.
That argument does not make sense...

It would be better to run 3x2TB RAID5 than a bunch of old/used 146GB SAS HDDs on drop-in RAID controller. It would be more reliable, cheaper upfront, cheaper in power usage, take up less space, and generate less noise.... while still being cheaper in cost.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
well they are sol old and cheap i could buy a few at a time for like 10-15 bucks since that's about all i ever have at 1 time. if don't get some freebies i'll probably try to do what you just said come christmas time. assuming i don't jump for a new video card. (for my sig rig)
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdoublejj View Post

well they are sol old and cheap i could buy a few at a time for like 10-15 bucks since that's about all i ever have at 1 time. if don't get some freebies i'll probably try to do what you just said come christmas time. assuming i don't jump for a new video card. (for my sig rig)
So you want to spend $100 on a RAID controller and get $15 old, power-hungry, and more expensive 150GB HDDs?

An 8-port SAS controller and 8x150GB HDDs in RAID5..... that's 1TB for $220.
An on-board controller and 2x2TB HDDs in RAID0.... that's 2TB for $160 while being more reliable and use less power
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
no i can get a PERC 6i for $60 or under. i can get the card with battery for 32 bucks. then bracket and 2 cables, each item 1 at a time when i have money. How much are used Terbyte(s) drives? The real question is if i do a raid 5 3 drives i can add more drives later? I do plan on getting a PERC 6i since it's so cheap and supposedly true hardware raid card.
 
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