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http://www.itnews.com.au/News/353838,bitcoin-declared-a-currency-in-germany.aspx
Quote:
Bitcoin has gained further traction after the German federal government officially recognised it as a currency.

The federal authorities declared Bitcoin an accountable unit that can be used as a means of private exchange multilaterally, reported the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung newspaper.

This now means Bitcoin commercial trading gains and value appreciation are now subject to a withholding tax of 25 per cent in Germany.
And so it begins...
 

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If you don't like it, ban it.

If you can't ban it, tax it.
 
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Interesting, I'm excited about how bitcoin is gaining traction and being recognized as an actual unit of exchange, but I'm concerned how governments are going to respond to it. I don't see Germany's actions as having any real effect, at least in the short term. A question on the forefront of my mind is how governments are going to tax and regulate bitcoin-only transactions.
 

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^ This. And how exactly do you manage to calculate gains on an anonymous transaction which is not physically quantifiable? That's like taxing gains on privately held and traded securities or antiquities. Sure if the person is completely honest, and has maintained copious records then it would be possible, but how likely is that.

And as someone like myself that has coins that were mined long ago when the exchange rate was less than $10/BTC - does that mean I've experienced a ~1000% appreciation - or does it mean that whenever I actually exchange them for goods and/or paper currency that the par value is set at whatever that amount was at the time.

This seems like an attempt at control that lacks any understanding of the principles involved. So I would expect to see something similar in the US soon.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiGiCiDAL View Post

This seems like an attempt at control that lacks any understanding of the principles involved. So I would expect to see something similar in the US soon.
tongue.gif
Already happening
 

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I would expect most people will not declare their fiat gains from cryptocurrency anyway.
 

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Just FYI:
I am from Frankfurt. I can asure you that nothing happend here.
No aliens came from outter space and no dinosaurs spawning.
So basically life goes on.
Quote:
Ruining Europe's IRL economic system wasn't enough for old Angela it seems.
No idea what that means...Germany is paying major bucks to other European countries so they dont have to declare bankruptcy
smile.gif
 

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25% for e-currency rly even for real currency trade there are no taxes.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Eiht View Post

Just FYI:
I am from Frankfurt. I can asure you that nothing happend here.
No aliens came from outter space and no dinosaurs spawning.
So basically life goes on.
No idea what that means...Germany is paying major bucks to other European countries so they dont have to declare bankruptcy
smile.gif
No that is not correct. Germany is paying big bucks to give loans to countries that have no chance of paying them off. They are simply holding the status quo in the hopes of things turning around, their banks are bankrupt remember. It will not. The European union needs to have a monetary policy that is similar to the US. Do you think if Alabama were to go bankrupt the entire US Federal system would collapse? NO. In Europe that is not the case. The Euro was set up as a de facto Deutschmark. Germany is unwilling to give up the power they currently hold in relation to the Euro, and thus the entire EU is on the verge of collapse.

If you want a real good idea of the specifics you can read them at Yanisvaroufakis.eu. You may recognize the name as the Valve economist. His economic writing on real world issues is very interesting, concise, and enlightening. Because I can guarantee NOTHING you hear in America on the MSM is even remotely accurate on the EU.

Bitcoin will fail, there is a reason the gold standard failed.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by LukaTCE View Post

25% for e-currency rly even for real currency trade there are no taxes.
They're taxing the money you make by trading the currency. 25% is the rate in Germany.
Quote:
Under domestic law, all dividends, regardless of whether they are paid to a resident
or a non-resident, are subject to a 25% withholding tax plus solidarity surcharge
of 5.5% of the tax due as a flat tax.
http://www.wipfli.com/Resources/Images/31987.pdf
 

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i smell cyber war
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fluxlite View Post

I would expect most people will not declare their fiat gains from cryptocurrency anyway.
I don't know how it works in Germany, but if you failed to declare significant amounts of income and made unaccounted for deposits to your accounts, you could get in a lot of trouble.

edit: Nvm I assume you just mean holding bitcoins and making purchases with them without ever having them taxed
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrGroove View Post

I don't know how it works in Germany, but if you failed to declare significant amounts of income and made unaccounted for deposits to your accounts, you could get in a lot of trouble.

edit: Nvm I assume you just mean holding bitcoins and making purchases with them without ever having them taxed
I can't speak for him but I was assuming that. Similarly you could have a situation where an individual purchased BTC with fiat currency... but then redeemed them for goods/services which otherwise would have been purchased with said currency. Suppose that at the time of the first exchange the rate was US$100:1BTC but at the time of the purchase the rate had climbed to US$200:1BTC. Either twice the amount of goods/services could be purchased for the same price (a material gain) or purchased with half the BTC, thus leaving an unredeemed balance (a unrealized material gain). If the difference were to be once again exchanged into the fiat currency (without tracking on the purchase made with BTC unless voluntarily reported) at a later time when the rate had once again returned to $100:1BTC - this transaction would be indistinguishable from someone buying some BTC and then simply converting half the amount back into the fiat currency... while also receiving an amount equal to that in goods/services (but would appear as a zero sum gain).

Naturally this could work the other way... but unless someone is not only documenting their exchange trades, but also their secondary material gains - I can see no way to tax this reasonably. Additionally, unless the government involved was also providing the tax incentives of declaring losses (if the above situation were reversed and the rate fell by 50% between the point of exchange and the purchase of goods) - I see no one ever reporting anything.

On the other hand if the exchange itself is being taxed... then I simply see a black market arising to prevent exchange taxes from being able to be collected - and if it hits both sides of the transaction... the 'legitimate' exchanges would lose all of their business as they would be operating at a 25-50% deficit in rates (depending on 1-sided or 2-sided collection). Since crypto-currencies have no geographic or political requirement... that's going to be pretty difficult to pull off.

However, as far as a 'shot across the bow' is concerned... it and the US counterpart are pretty decent really. Could definitely put a dent in the exchange and at least make many people think twice about holding any considerable amount of BTC in the countries concerned.
 

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"tax of 25 per cent"

mad.gif


It's either "25 percent" or "25%"

"25 per cent" doesn't make sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GingerJohn View Post

If you don't like it, ban it.

If you can't ban it, tax it.
This.

Usually if you fight something like this, it's going to end up fighting back 10 times as powerful. The best thing to do is make it official and tax it.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cesaro Summability View Post

No that is not correct. Germany is paying big bucks to give loans to countries that have no chance of paying them off. They are simply holding the status quo in the hopes of things turning around. It will not. The European union needs to have a monetary policy that is similar to the US. Do you think if Alabama were to go bankrupt the entire US Federal system would collapse? NO. In Europe that is not the case. The Euro was set up as a de facto Deutschmark. Germany is unwilling to give up the power they currently hold in relation to the Euro, and thus the entire EU is on the verge of collapse.

If you want a real good idea of the specifics you can read them at Yanisvaroufakis.eu. You may recognize the name as the Valve economist. His economic writing on real world issues is very interesting, concise, and enlightening. Because I can guarantee NOTHING you hear in America on the MSM is even remotely accurate on the EU.

Bitcoin will fail, there is a reason the gold standard failed.
They don´t really care if you can´t pay it back , bit like toxic loans. They´d prefer you to turn over all your state owned to tender out, water / electricity /gas / healthcare etc

Greece sold some of their islands
Quote:
One of the main conditions that the European Union - mainly driven by demands of its most powerful nation, Germany - has imposed on Greece in return for the cash is a huge program of privatization.

The Greek government is in the process of selling off 70,000 lots of state assets - everything from ancient palaces, to stretches of coastline, to the state gambling company to entire idyllic islands, are up for grabs to the highest bidder.
- See more at: http://www.metro.us/newyork/uncategorized/2013/04/21/paradise-for-sale-bankrupt-greece-sells-islands-palaces-to-stay-afloat/#sthash.xtK6RvVy.dpuf
OT
This is a massive push for bit coin , I imagine other countries would have to jump on it soon or Germany would be the only one raking in digital taxes . it´s about to get interesting , i mean BC was banned in Thailand only two weeks ago.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by spartan2012197 View Post

Interesting, I'm excited about how bitcoin is gaining traction and being recognized as an actual unit of exchange, but I'm concerned how governments are going to respond to it. I don't see Germany's actions as having any real effect, at least in the short term. A question on the forefront of my mind is how governments are going to tax and regulate bitcoin-only transactions.
Easy, by regulating the process for exchange... if they control all forms of how it can be exchanged and change the way it is tracked they can Tax it easily, or it will be Taxed at the mining pool itself before it even gets out to other users. They CAN tax it... if they control the pools and make it so people who run the pools HAVE to collect the tax on it then bingo its Taxed. They can even tax it at the "Counter" when you wanna buy into it.

So Tax it before it gets to the population or Tax it after in exchange form... If they are smart they will tax people who run Massive pools. That means it will hurt ALL people who mine BTC. Its not impossible just difficult.
 
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