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Discussion Starter #1
Hey guys,<br />
<br />
I didn't want to go all out on a keyboard, however I wanted:<br />
A Gaming board<br />
Backlit<br />
A few macro keys, maybe 5 or 6<br />
Wired<br />
Minimal input lag<br />
<br />
I originally had chosen the Logitech G15, however it's really a bit too expensive ($100 Australian).<br />
<br />
Keep in mind I am in Australia so parts are a bit more expensive and range is more limited.<br />
<br />
I was wondering if the Sidewinder X4 was any good, as it is only $49 AUD.
 

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Got this very keyboard myself, and love it.<br />
<br />
It's got nice responsive keys, and feels very well made. At first it felt cheap due to the plastic, and took me a while to get used to it, but after you have used it for a while you realise it's high quality. The backlight/macros are great. It also has Keyboard Profiles which you can switch between with 1 button, and these can contain certain Macros or whatever you wish for that layout.<br />
<br />
The Macros are away from the keys so you can't accidentally lean on them, but are in easy reach. I didn't like all the gadgets on the newer keyboard (screens, temp monitors, jet packs <img src="/images/smilies/tongue.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Stick Out Tongue" class="inlineimg" />) and this was a great choice. Simple but sexy and functional.<br />
<br />
It's nice and comfy too, and the backlight gives it a nice ambient glow. Best keyboard in that price range for sure; highly reccomended <img src="/images/smilies/thumb.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Thumb" class="inlineimg" />
 
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You picked a good choice. Although I use strictly mechanical keyboards for many different reasons, Ive found a select few rubber dome keyboards that are actually great quality. those being the x4, razer tarantula, and an older dell keyboard I used in college.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks! Done <img src="/images/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smile" class="inlineimg" />
 

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Originally Posted by <strong>LAF</strong>
<a href="showthread.php?s=d51c1a11b1f7d586c94ba64097780a71&p=9399627#post9399627" rel="nofollow"><img class="inlineimg" src="http://static.overclock.net//img/forum/go_quote.gif" border="0" alt="View Post" /></a>
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<div style="font-style:italic">Thanks! Done <img src="/images/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smile" class="inlineimg" /></div>

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</div>Any time, glad to have helped!
 

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ghsoting problems (seriously on a modern keyboard that inexcusable)<br>
membrane keyboard (keys are gummy and not very responsive)<br>
usb (larger input lag than ps/2)<br>
controller introduces around 80ms of latency compared to around 40-50ms on costar manafactured keyboards
 

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Originally Posted by <strong>salmasy</strong>
<a href="showthread.php?s=453b4c90ea6adb23f310222044b120df&p=9400279#post9400279" rel="nofollow"><img class="inlineimg" src="http://static.overclock.net//img/forum/go_quote.gif" border="0" alt="View Post" /></a>
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<div style="font-style:italic">ghsoting problems (seriously on a modern keyboard that inexcusable)<br />
membrane keyboard (keys are gummy and not very responsive)<br />
usb (larger input lag than ps/2)<br />
controller introduces around 80ms of latency compared to around 40-50ms on costar manafactured keyboards</div>

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</div>I think you are thinking about a different keyboard. This conversation is about the SideWinder X4, which features Microsoft's new multitouch-based, anti-ghosting technology. So it is one of very few keyboards (and I think the only one anywhere near this price) that effectively eliminates the ghosting issue.<br />
<br />
By way of explanation, the reason ghosting is still a problem on most keyboards is because fixing it was rather expensive. The classic solution is to put a diode in series with each key, which not only means 100+ diodes, but also a large printed circuit board to mount them on. That's why those keyboards typically list for over $100. Not many people are willing to spend that much on a keyboard. So that's why most keyboards have ghosting issues.<br />
<br />
The Microsoft multitouch solution (which my group developed), uses resistors in series with each switch, which can be printed in one, low cost step. We are hoping this will revolutionize how keyboards are made, and eliminate the ghosting issue once, and for all.<br />
<br />
Anyhow, you can get all the details on X4 and anti-ghosting here:<br />
<br />
<a href="http://www.microsoft.com/appliedsciences/content/projects/AntiGhosting.aspx" target="_blank">http://www.microsoft.com/appliedscie...iGhosting.aspx</a>
 

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i haven't seen a single keyboard other than the X4 that has had ghosting issues in my entire LIFE, ghosting is NOT common, its only a problem on the X4, even the keyboard i got for free from a fujitsu computer does not ghost.<br />
<br />
Example, moving backwards and to the left while crouching and reloading (ASER) throws in an I, I use I as my knife (and then have my side mouse button binded to the I key to get around a problem with binding directly to the mouse) therefore in modern warfare 2 If i wish to back behind cover while crouching and decide to reload, i will instead thrust my knife into the wall not reload at all and be open to attack due to the microsoft keyboard being a pile of excrement! <br />
<br />
Now i suggest you do some research before butting in and take your fanboyish ways elsewhere, sometimes i'd swear your kind were on these companies payroll.
 

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Originally Posted by <strong>salmasy</strong>
<a href="showthread.php?s=453b4c90ea6adb23f310222044b120df&p=9401583#post9401583" rel="nofollow"><img class="inlineimg" src="http://static.overclock.net//img/forum/go_quote.gif" border="0" alt="View Post" /></a>
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<div style="font-style:italic">i haven't seen a single keyboard other than the X4 that has had ghosting issues in my entire LIFE, ghosting is NOT common, its only a problem on the X4, even the keyboard i got for free from a fujitsu computer does not ghost.</div>

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</div>I'm not sure how to respond to this, but you are mistaken. Those of us who make keyboards for a living know that ghosting is a significant issue (we get the angry emails), and that there is some small fraction of the population that is will to pay a premium to avoid it. That's kind of the point behind keyboards like the Razer Tarantula and the SteelSeries 7G.<br />
<br />
The idea behind the SideWinder X4 is to bring high-end, anti-ghosting to an affordable price point.<br />
<br />
X4 only came out in recent weeks. Here's what it looks like:<br />
<br />
<a href="http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/gaming/productdetails.aspx?pid=105" target="_blank">http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/ga...s.aspx?pid=105</a><br />
<br />
If you don't think ghosting is a problem, take a look at this thread:<br />
<br />
<a href="http://www.overclock.net/computer-peripherals/732429-see-how-good-your-keyboard.html" target="_blank">http://www.overclock.net/computer-pe...-keyboard.html</a><br />
<br />
Over 900 posts in less than a week, and still counting!
 

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Originally Posted by <strong>salmasy</strong>
<a href="showthread.php?s=453b4c90ea6adb23f310222044b120df&p=9401583#post9401583" rel="nofollow"><img class="inlineimg" src="http://static.overclock.net//img/forum/go_quote.gif" border="0" alt="View Post" /></a>
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<div style="font-style:italic">Now i suggest you do some research before butting in and take your fanboyish ways elsewhere, sometimes i'd swear your kind were on these companies payroll.</div>

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</div>Actually, I do work for Microsoft: I'm a Senior Researcher in the Applied Sciences Group. You can check out my publication list here:<br />
<br />
<a href="http://www.microsoft.com/appliedsciences/content/team/PaulDietz.aspx" target="_blank">http://www.microsoft.com/appliedscie...PaulDietz.aspx</a><br />
<br />
<img src="/images/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smile" class="inlineimg" />
 

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Originally Posted by <strong>PaulHDietz</strong>
<a href="showthread.php?s=453b4c90ea6adb23f310222044b120df&p=9401543#post9401543" rel="nofollow"><img class="inlineimg" src="http://static.overclock.net//img/forum/go_quote.gif" border="0" alt="View Post" /></a>
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<div style="font-style:italic">I think you are thinking about a different keyboard. This conversation is about the SideWinder X4, which features Microsoft's new multitouch-based, anti-ghosting technology. So it is one of very few keyboards (and I think the only one anywhere near this price) that effectively eliminates the ghosting issue.<br />
<br />
By way of explanation, the reason ghosting is still a problem on most keyboards is because fixing it was rather expensive. The classic solution is to put a diode in series with each key, which not only means 100+ diodes, but also a large printed circuit board to mount them on. That's why those keyboards typically list for over $100. Not many people are willing to spend that much on a keyboard. So that's why most keyboards have ghosting issues.<br />
<br />
The Microsoft multitouch solution (which my group developed), uses resistors in series with each switch, which can be printed in one, low cost step. We are hoping this will revolutionize how keyboards are made, and eliminate the ghosting issue once, and for all.<br />
<br />
Anyhow, you can get all the details on X4 and anti-ghosting here:<br />
<br />
<a href="http://www.microsoft.com/appliedsciences/content/projects/AntiGhosting.aspx" target="_blank">http://www.microsoft.com/appliedscie...iGhosting.aspx</a></div>

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</div>Thanks for the heads up. But what about response time? Rarely is that information told with some of these newer keyboards. And IMO that's just as important. However, I assume anything over 500Hz may reach dimensioning returns?
 

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In that case i shall now report you for advertising, as a representative of a company you should read the damn rules. and after that learn the correct definitions it seems you like many others have no idea about the definition of ghosting.<br />
Now since you are so closely involved with the design could you tell me what the de-bouncing time is for the keys on the X4? and what about latency caused by the keyboard controller matrix?
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>salmasy</strong> <a href="showthread.php?s=453b4c90ea6adb23f310222044b120df&p=9401981#post9401981"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="http://static.overclock.net//img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">In that case i shall now report you for advertising things you will profit from, as a representative of a company you should read the damn rules. and after that learn the correct definitions it seems you like many others have no idea about the definition of ghosting.<br>
Now since you are so closely involved with the design could you tell me what the de-bouncing time is for the keys on the X4? and what about latency caused by the keyboard controller matrix?</div>
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He has the hardware rep tag if you notice, he has gone through the proper channels.<br><br>
Like Paul pointed out earlier, the sidewinder x4 is pretty new. You may be thinking of a different microsoft keyboard that had issues.
 

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Nope, i have the keyboard sitting a couple of metres behind me that my brother is using, i couldn't use it because of the problem with ghost I keys popping up if i was crouching moving backwards to the left and reloading at the same time in MW2, resulting in me thrusting my knife into a wall and more often than not getting killed,
 

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Are you sure that it is the sidewinder x4 specifically, not another model? I do remember an older model having ghosting issues, which is probably partially why Microsoft spent time developing the newer technology.
 

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Salmasy... I'm gonna call "pics or it didn't happen" on that one.<br><br>
Timestamped, please.
 

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Originally Posted by <strong>EastCoast</strong>
<a href="showthread.php?s=453b4c90ea6adb23f310222044b120df&p=9401961#post9401961" rel="nofollow"><img class="inlineimg" src="http://static.overclock.net//img/forum/go_quote.gif" border="0" alt="View Post" /></a>
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<div style="font-style:italic">Thanks for the heads up. But what about response time? Rarely is that information told with some of these newer keyboards.</div>

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</div>I wish I knew more about this topic. There are lots of things that go into response time. Internally, there is the question of how often the keys are actually scanned. Next, there is the issue of debouncing. When the contacts slap together, they can make and break a number of times before settling down to good contact. It can also look rather similar to what happens when a electrostatic spark comes from a foot-shuffling user. So there are debouncing algorithms that typically look for some degree of sustained pressing. Then this information needs to be shipped out. The X4 is a full-speed USB device, so it's actually better than most in this regard. (We had to do this because we are potentially sending a lot more data than a standard, ghosting keyboard.) USB is polled, so data is sent as requested at regular time intervals. I think all of that happens in single digit milliseconds. But then you have the big unknown - how long the PC takes to respond to this. First, there is the USB driver, and then there is the question of how long it takes the app to respond. I think the PC side of this dominates the response time. Most screens are only refreshed at 60Hz. and they sometimes have buffering. So even when the PC has it all figured out, it can take 10's of ms before it appears on screen.<br />
<br />
From a research perspective, I can tell you that people are much less sensitive to delays from mice and keyboards than they are from touch screens. Move your mouse in a circle, and it looks like the pointer is following pretty well. Now do the same with a touch screen, and you'll notice just how far the pointer is lagging behind. So the good news for the gaming community is that touch screens are going to make everyone much more sensitive to this issue, and I bet things will slowly start to get much better...
 

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I have the X6 and i love it. You can go wrong with SideWinder Products.
 
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