Overclock.net banner
1 - 18 of 18 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
592 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi
Specs:
MSI b450 Tomahawk MAX
AMD Ryzen 5900x

I am looking to upgrade my 16GB Crucial Ballistix Sport LT 3000Mhz single rank RAM to 32GB.
I've tuned/overclocked this RAM to 3600Mhz and has been running great for around 2 years.
This RAM is discontinued so I would need to search ebay if I wanted to buy an additional 2X8GB sticks of the same matching type.

My questions are:
a) Would I run into any issues if I were to populate all 4 DIMM slots?
b) Should I buy 2X16GB 3600Mhz CL16 dual rank if there are any benefits to doing this instead?
  • If (b) which kit would you suggest for around £150?
  • If (a) This would be more cost effective for me because I have seen the RAM modules on ebay sell for £70.

My current RAM (see img)
Font Line Screenshot Software Parallel


Thank you
 

·
Overclock the World
Joined
·
3,833 Posts
If (b) which kit would you suggest for around £150?
I can advice to look for used stuff
As even "basic cheap stuff" like this cost you around 190-200 pounds (2x16) or near 120€ per 2x8
Usual price for b-dies is 90-140€ for 16gb
soo about 78-120 GBP

You search for 16gb gifted
I understand the request , but i suggest you to look for used stuff and whatever appears with flat timings or near flat
being 70-80 GBP underbudget, there is not anything really to recommend

Excuse me, but this request is simply not fullfillable ~ nothing bellow 240 GBP, and those aren't even on a good PCB ~ the RipJaws
Mixing
Patriot Viper Steel DIMM Kit 16GB, DDR4-4000, CL16-16-16-36 (PVS416G400C6K) starting from £ 97.99 (2022) | Skinflint Price Comparison UK ~ 90 GBP
with
Patriot Viper Steel DIMM Kit 16GB, DDR4-4000, CL19-19-19-39 (PVS416G400C9K) starting from £ 84.99 (2022) | Skinflint Price Comparison UK 85 GBP

Could be near your request, but that's also not what you'd like to hear
Maybe magician @Bloax could give you some idea's
 
  • Rep+
Reactions: majnu

·
Overclock the World
Joined
·
3,833 Posts
I overlooked that you wouldn't care about about B-dies
Soo Rev.B (micron) as 16gb dimms, is fine on most if not all
They are just binned higher
The cheapest you can find

Yet my recommendation is to save up and not buy twice.
And to browse your used market ~ for nothing like 16-18, but rather timings like 14-14-14, 14-15-15, 16-16-16, 19-19-19 and so on ~ flat timings
The Teamgroup Xtreem ARGB (white) are beautiful dual rank dimms. But all dual rank b-dies are expensive. Eh their normal 80-120 GBP pricetag for 2x8.
It hasn't much changed throughout the years. Only PCB quality improved slowly
 
  • Rep+
Reactions: majnu

·
Registered
Joined
·
779 Posts
i would either sell your current kit and buy new if you need 32gb or just wait and get 32gb for your next build. In most cases 32gb is not required and the swap might be less noticable than one might think.

But i dont think i would cheap out on the dual rank kit. higher amounts of ram are harder to run for the imc so better quality ram will help out at least some. plus its harder to make 16gb dimms run the same speeds as the 8gb dimms.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
236 Posts
It's actually the 16-16-16 kit with the 4400 19-19-19 one: Patriot Viper Steel DIMM Kit 16GB, DDR4-4400, CL19-19-19-39 (PVS416G440C9K) starting from £ 101.99 (2022) | Skinflint Price Comparison UK
But I don't know if those play well on AM4, and I have no spare CPU to easily test it.

However, 4x8 Viper 4400 19-19-19 is a "known good" entity (thanks mongoled lol):
Font Screenshot Technology Software Multimedia

(important settings being: procODT 28.2 CPU 1P8 around 1.87-1.93v, RTT Nom /6 (40 ohm) Wr /3 (80 ohm) Park /4 or /5 (60 or 48 ohm), RTP 5/6/7 + tWR 10/12/14, CADBus 40-20-30-20 + AddrCmdSetup 56)

So if you can pawn off your current ballistix for 50ish quid, 4x8 4400 19-19-19 work out to around 150 quid.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
592 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
Thanks for the replies and suggestions I really appreciate it. Sorry I couldn't reply sooner. Money is really tight so I had to be sensible so found matching RAM on ebay for £38.

So I now have
4x8GB Crucial Ballistic Sport LT Gray modules
Part BLS8G4D30AESBK.M8FE

As soon as I have spare cash I will sell my RAM sticks and then put the cost towards something better. I did look at those Patriots and they are £110 for DDR4 4400 16GB on Amazon. If I can find a 2x16GB dual rank kit I'll most likely get those later down the road.
Patriot Memory Viper Steel Series DDR4 16GB (2 x 8GB) 4400MHz Performance Memory Kit - PVS416G440C9K : Amazon.co.uk: Computers & Accessories

I knew that I would most likely not be able to overclock higher with 4 sticks so this is the best I could get, stable with TM5 anta extreme profile, YCruncher, Windows memory Diagnostic tool and gaming. I would get instability with anything higher than 3400
White Light Product Font Line


I did look at a similar thread for overclocking RAM with 4 sticks but I could get nowhere near those results.
(7) Overclocking Crucial e-die 4x8gb 3600mhz cl16 to 3800mhz | Overclock.net

Thanks again for your help
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
217 Posts
Running your VSOC at 1.00V you not going to get high MT to boot. That 1usmus voltage for VSOC is suspect for 4 DIMMS
Also that program does not support ZEN 3 it only supports up to ZEN 2 at best it can be used has a starting point but
not recommended for ZEN 3 CPUS

Maybe someone with a 5900X can advise better.

I have a B450 Mortar MAX and I dont see why 3600/3800 will not boot with your current setup.
@Taraquin has Ballistix 3000 CL 15 i think.

Try VSOC at least 1.10-1.15V to get higher frequencies like 3600 with all 4 Sticks to boot.

Try 1.45V DIMM and VSOC 1.10V with 3600-18-20-20-20 or 16-20-20-20.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
952 Posts
I agree with The King. You probably get instability due to too low SOC. For 3600 1.05v should be enough, for 3800 1.1-1.15v. You probably need 1.05v IOD for 3800.

The sticks themselves should be able to do
3600:
15-19-19
RAS 37
RC 56
RFC 536

3800:
16-20-20
RAS 40
RC 60
RFC 560

For both 3600 and 3800:
RRDS 4
RRDL 6
FAW 16
WTRS 4
WTRL 8
WR 16
RTP 8
RDRDSCL 4
WRWRSCL 4
RDWR 10
WRRD 3
CWL 16
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
236 Posts
Well, based on whatever Veii's fiddling with this Micron 8gbit E:

Font Screenshot Electronic device Software Number

Font Line Electronic device Technology Screenshot

Then it looks awfully similar to the one you're running, just with better primary timings due to a better (later) chip quality.
tRFC roughly the same duration, too.


important bits:
low procODT, wacky RTT configuration 🤡:unsure:🤡
CADBus 40-20-30-24
tCKE is set to 7 @ 1800 MCLK, +2 every multiple of 100
RDWR is the same speed, 7 + (4 from +1 each 100 MCLK)
tRAS is 3x tCL
tRC is tRAS + tRP

not so important bits: RRD/WTR/tFAW are intentionally loose for frequency walking, can be lower
Font Screenshot Technology Multimedia Software

(yes this is an older screenshot, as you might tell by the wrong tRAS/tRC)


You also seem to be running SOC/IOD/CCD as a single voltage, instead of as a spread of voltages:

Which is not so good, as the fabric starts to become very sensitive past 1700 FCLK - and starts being obnoxiously demanding above 1900 (it it even runs).
Voltage requirements up to 1866-1900 FCLK vary, but the base SOC voltage tends to be in the 1.07-1.12v range - and 1800 FCLK tends to be around 1.025-1.06vSOC.

it takes a bunch of restarting and benchmarking to bruteforce the "exact" combo of voltages Your Processor + Board wants, but it's "worth" the effort (unless you want to sell tuned systems)


cheers
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
592 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
I've been battling getting 4x8Gb sticks stable for the past few days and finally managed to get the RAM stable using these settings last night (see pic below)

TM5 would throw Error 1 & 2 anywhere between 30mins to an 1 hour and now it's been running for 2 hours plus which is a huge relief. Since I was going out and don't like to leave tests unattended I stopped it at 2 hours. How long does it usually take to complete?

To get some stability I had to use
ProcODT at 60
ClkDrvSter at 40
tFAW 24

I wish I knew what all those values (ProcODT, Rtt(x) and (x)DrvStr do as I have no idea if it's too high or would have any adverse affects. I only managed to find some Reddit posts that didn't really tell me much.

@Bloax you are right I had to use some wacky RTT configuration but I just wish I had more confidence in what each of those do as they are completely different to what DRAM calculator suggests for 3400Mhz and I'm only guessing but I think my stability came from changing those values.

Colorfulness Light Font Line Screenshot


Thanks

Edit I thought I'd check temps by shoving a K type thermocouple inbetween the heat spreader (not the most scientific way I know, but I didn't want to remove it. The temps seem fine even without a 90mm fan blowing on it.
Heat was a concern but from reading it appears Micron E Die is not temp sensitive anyway.

Font Rectangle Screenshot Parallel Number
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
236 Posts
here's me thinking I'm taking forever to post a reply, but it's not even been a full day, pff

cooling RAM is still a nice idea just for peace of mind, nice temps
TM5 would throw Error 1 & 2 anywhere between 30mins to an 1 hour and now it's been running for 2 hours plus which is a huge relief. Since I was going out and don't like to leave tests unattended I stopped it at 2 hours. How long does it usually take to complete?

To get some stability I had to use
ProcODT at 60
ClkDrvSter at 40
tFAW 24

I wish I knew what all those values (ProcODT, Rtt(x) and (x)DrvStr do as I have no idea if it's too high or would have any adverse affects. I only managed to find some Reddit posts that didn't really tell me much.
personally then I make use of this TM5 config and cheat-sheet:
super handy for trying to sniff out what could potentially be wrong

One "annoying" feature of Micron chips is that they are, apparently, very nice at hiding errors under the rug until you're >30 minutes in, as you experience yourself.


ProcODT/RTT/CADBus all deal with the Weird and Wacky electrical engineering stuff [Official] AMD Ryzen DDR4 24/7 Memory Stability Thread (just a video and image of what's being operated on)

As far as I've gathered, Nom and Park deal with the peak and the floor of the memory signal, Wr does ??? something important - all have some impact on the DIMM itself.
High Park and Wr impedances (low "divisors", i.e. Wr/2 or Wr/1 + Park/2 or Park/1) can get dangerous mixed together, as both have a large impact on how the DIMM interacts with the current flowing through it.
Lower Park impedances tend to ""run hotter"" (on the memory chips) but also leak much less current onto the contacts, resulting in not slowly burning them when running >1.5vDIMM.

ProcODT is a strange thing, which only seems to be described as "the overall size of the signal"?
Higher impedances are usually rougher on the memory controller (not the DIMM), but may be necessary when the signal doesn't survive the trip through the entire memory system - usually in cases where there are a lot of hungry memory chips, or the board doesn't have good memory signal integrity.
Sometimes it has a big impact on what RRD/WTR(/CCD) + tFAW you can run, sometimes it doesn't, sometimes it can be clamped down by raising CPU 1.8v / 1P8 / AUX / VDD18 / PLL1.8(?) .. and sometimes that helps with running better secondary (previously mentioned list) timings.

On my z690-a pro board, (presumably) 24 ohm procODT runs with 4x8 sticks populated.. That's really low. 🤡


CADBus is then back to handling the DIMM interactions, though now it's about how hard the current for certain operations hits them.
ClkDrv is the main "clock" signal, and so it is the one with the greatest variation between different PCBs, memory chips, and final memory layout (is this single-rank, dual-rank, triple-rank, quad-rank??) - with more ranks usually requiring a stronger "drive" to successfully push it through all the ranks.


CsOdtDrv is another impedance which I don't know what does, but does seem to require being not 20 on Zen2, and higher than 24 on Zen3 -- unless a high procODT impedance is run.
there's a little (mildly English-enhanced) quote somewhere in here; [Official] AMD Ryzen DDR4 24/7 Memory Stability Thread
...You should see 4 dimms as dual rank behavior - nearly identical to dual rank, with little exceptions....

-->
CAD_BUS presets that work well are
60-20-40-20
60-20-20-24
40-20-40-20
40-20-30-24
24-20-24-24

3rd value bellow 30 causes training issues for Vermeer, but has to be used when procODT is high
24-20-24-24 or 24-20-20-24 only works with wastefully high procODT
But neither procODT nor cLDO_VDDP have to be pushed for FCLK and not for memory timings stability or training stability
^ doing so degrades signal integrity too much. Using CAD_BUS is the right way
in case you're curious about VDDP values, then 0.83v is enough for 2x16 4000 15-15-15 - and 0.88v is enough for 4200 15-15-15
so at 3400 you'd be looking at something closer to 0.70v instead of 0.95v, hehe
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
592 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Does 0.8v VDDP work with a lower procODT (e.g. 40) and CsOdtDrvStr (third CAD value) on 30?
I have not tried that but I reverted back to 0.9 VDDP and now TM5 is throwing errors again after an hour whereas previously it went over 2 hours without showing any issues.

Rectangle Font Screenshot Parallel Software
Product Rectangle Font Screenshot Electronic device


Error 1 according to this is:
Can be voltage related, can be tRFC issues,
Tiny timeout issues (tRRD, tWTR),
can also be on the edge of stability CAD_BUS (depends if #6/#4 exist or not)
(7) Memory Testing with TestMem5 TM5 with custom configs | Page 5 | Overclock.net

So I'm kinda at a loss what to change.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
236 Posts
in fact here's someone on zen2 likely struggling with fabric instability due to overvoltage rather than memory hehe
Rectangle Font Screenshot Technology Parallel

(4x8 does not do worse RRD/WTR settings than 2x8)

Going TOO SLOW is also a source of instability, funnily enough!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
592 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 · (Edited)
@Bloax passed by making your suggestions
0.8v VDDP, procODT (40) and CsOdtDrvStr (30)

But I will test it again because for some reason TM5 can pass when I run it for 6 hours but when I run the program again it will show Error 1 within an hour.

@The_King I did try his settings and would get BSOD Stopcode violations.

Thank you :)
Colorfulness Light Product Font Line

Font Screenshot Technology Electronic device Multimedia


edit - It passed again 2nd time around with no errors atoo :)
 
1 - 18 of 18 Posts
Top