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Discussion Starter #1
National Transportation Safety Board investigators say the driver of a Tesla using autopilot did not have his hands on the steering wheel in the moments before a fatal crash in the Silicon Valley area of Northern California in March.

Investigators also found that the Tesla was accelerating, with the cruise control engaged, when it crashed into a highway barrier. Walter Huang, the 38-year old driver, was killed.
This is why computers should NEVER ever be trusted no matter how safe they may appear. I'll take my chances with a human behind the wheel thank you very much.



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This is why computers should NEVER ever be trusted no matter how safe they may appear.
Not at all. Tesla's Autopilot is not a completely autonomous system, it requires a human behind the wheel. The real message here is that you should not advertise a driver assist as "autopilot".
 

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RGB Rainbow Vomit!
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These issues often boil down to human error.
Be it the driver not paying attention when they know full well they should be, or the software developers specifically disabling safety features/parameters included in the hardware (looking at you UBER...)
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Not at all. Tesla's Autopilot is not a completely autonomous system, it requires a human behind the wheel. The real message here is that you should not advertise a driver assist as "autopilot".
No, I'll never trust a computer ever. Why? Because they are broken to the person who programmed them. I much rather see a human who gives a judgement calls whereas these autonomous vehicles WILL go rogue. It's going to lead to more accident not less. We see this crap with youtube too. They flag the wrong videos for copyright infringement and it hurts the wrong people.
 

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This is why computers should NEVER ever be trusted no matter how safe they may appear. I'll take my chances with a human behind the wheel thank you very much.



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Damn straight! I'm sticking to my 5-speed. Manual for life!
 

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No, I'll never trust a computer ever. Why? Because they are broken to the person who programmed them. I much rather see a human who gives a judgement calls whereas these autonomous vehicles WILL go rogue. It's going to lead to more accident not less. We see this crap with youtube too. They flag the wrong videos for copyright infringement and it hurts the wrong people.
That wasn't really my point, I don't really care if you trust computers. My point was that this specific case clearly has nothing to do with autonomous driving as a concept. The system in question is not designed to drive autonomously so it crashing when used incorrectly is not proof that no system could ever drive a car autonomously.

Actual autonomous driving systems arguably already outperform humans and the tech is still relatively new. With advancements they could become undeniably better drivers than humans even if not perfect. Your logic is so flawed, I'm not sure if I've been hit by Poe's law again.
 

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Cheapest Man On Earth
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I really don't understand how it can be marketed that way in the first place. Humans are notorious at ignoring anything and everything they possibly can, and doing the minimal amount of effort on things they don't care about and don't need to exert any effort or thought towards. Case in point - the overweight jackhammer operator. A jackhammer is heavy as heck, but you can lift it up once, balance it against a sizable belly and let it rip.


This simply shouldn't be a thing. A missile weighing thousands of pounds under minimal supervision from the driver or the computer is a death wish for it's occupants and anyone in front of it. I agree, truly autonomous vehicles already have the potential to drive better than humans. Given a road system without any human drivers (not that I'm advocating for or against this idea), they don't need to drive like we do. They could drive slower with less stopping or slowing down and still get from place to place faster. Assuming all current safety methods are retained, driving slower is the top method of reducing motor vehicle fatalities, short of hiding from roads altogether.


I had heard that supposedly the guy from this story (?) saw the car make the same motion towards the barrier in the past, and still continued to let the car drive him to his doom. If that is true then he literally ignored or forgot that his car was going to kill him and allowed it to happen. I don't think any meatbag operated machines should have computer based steering that needs to be babysat, because the meatbag will blindly use it as a crutch until a catastrophe occurs.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I really don't understand how it can be marketed that way in the first place. Humans are notorious at ignoring anything and everything they possibly can, and doing the minimal amount of effort on things they don't care about and don't need to exert any effort or thought towards. Case in point - the overweight jackhammer operator. A jackhammer is heavy as heck, but you can lift it up once, balance it against a sizable belly and let it rip.


This simply shouldn't be a thing. A missile weighing thousands of pounds under minimal supervision from the driver or the computer is a death wish for it's occupants and anyone in front of it. I agree, truly autonomous vehicles already have the potential to drive better than humans. Given a road system without any human drivers (not that I'm advocating for or against this idea), they don't need to drive like we do. They could drive slower with less stopping or slowing down and still get from place to place faster. Assuming all current safety methods are retained, driving slower is the top method of reducing motor vehicle fatalities, short of hiding from roads altogether.


I had heard that supposedly the guy from this story (?) saw the car make the same motion towards the barrier in the past, and still continued to let the car drive him to his doom. If that is true then he literally ignored or forgot that his car was going to kill him and allowed it to happen. I don't think any meatbag operated machines should have computer based steering that needs to be babysat, because the meatbag will blindly use it as a crutch until a catastrophe occurs.
The only humans that tend to ignore are a few but the reason why we have more deaths is because we have more people on the road and there are many other factors other than driver error that causes fatality.

That wasn't really my point, I don't really care if you trust computers. My point was that this specific case clearly has nothing to do with autonomous driving as a concept. The system in question is not designed to drive autonomously so it crashing when used incorrectly is not proof that no system could ever drive a car autonomously.

Actual autonomous driving systems arguably already outperform humans and the tech is still relatively new. With advancements they could become undeniably better drivers than humans even if not perfect. Your logic is so flawed, I'm not sure if I've been hit by Poe's law again.
Do you have proof that autonomous cars are safer or we just going by the data fed from the car manufacturers themselves who are trying to sell you their product to make it appear safe? Just because they've done trial runs, doesn't mean they are safer in the real world. Anyone who has done migration of system should know this. lol This forum is a classic example of testing gone horribly wrong. We were with huddler, it went through rigorous testing for a good year or so I believe and then the whole thing collapsed once we went to migrate fully to huddler. You can't escape entropy no matter how safe these things may appear to be 'safe'.
 

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Do you have proof that autonomous cars are safer
Do you have proof that they are not?

The only available data points to them already being safer. I believe that they can become even safer with further development and if they do outright outperform humans in the future then I will argue for self-driving cars. I'm not arguing for or against self-driving cars as they are now, I'm just pointing out that your logic is flawed. This case has nothing to do with autonomous cars as a concept. And in what way does this forum's migration to Huddler relate to self-driving cars? How can examples of something in completely unrelated areas (forum software, content rights enforcement) be proof that autonomous cars are inherently bad? Just because you can make a bad product doesn't mean you will.
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Do you have proof that they are not?

The only available data points to them already being safer. I believe that they can become even safer with further development and if they do outright outperform humans in the future then I will argue for self-driving cars. I'm not arguing for or against self-driving cars as they are now, I'm just pointing out that your logic is flawed. This case has nothing to do with autonomous cars as a concept.
I do. What makes humans better and a safer drive is because we are able to anticipate what can happen, faster and more accurate than any stupid computer could ever could. Sure, autopilot is more reactive but so are humans. See how a formula 1 driver reacts, shifts gears and how quickly he go around corners. It's better than any computer could.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/05/sorry-elon-musk-theres-no-clear-evidence-autopilot-saves-lives/

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/are-autonomous-cars-really-safer-than-human-drivers/


The other reason why I would trust a human being more than a computer is that a computer doesn't have a conscious, emotions or empathy. A person does cares about his/her existence and well being of the people in the car. Sure there are some really crazy people out there that don't value life, but those people are extremely rare. A computer will be designed to do just one thing but can screw up big time as it doesn't know that it exists or cares about its existence.This autopilot shows the inherent flaws in autonomous/autopilot driving and I won't ever turn it on even if I owned tesla.
 

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Iconoclast
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Once automated driving is mature, I expect accident rates to drop precipitously. Even the worst systems that pass regulatory requirements for fully automated use will be vastly superior to the best human drivers in all technical aspects.

I don't believe human ability to make relevant judgement calls will a significant factor because in many scenarios play out too quickly for any non-reflexive judgement to occur. Any objective judgement will be done better by computer and subjective ones outside of immediate emergencies can be deferred to the human operator/occupants (e.g. if the computer doesn't think it can handle the conditions in question safely, it would refuse to operate in automated mode).

As far as collision avoidance goes, if the vehicle cannot sense an area that it's current path of movement could bring it into contact with in less time than would be reliably required to bring the vehicle to a full stop, then it's going too fast for the area/conditions.

Autonomous driving systems are in their infancy. They have a long way to go, but they will get to the point where one would have to be insane to think they could do better. This might take five years, or fifty, but it will happen.
 

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I do. What makes humans better and a safer drive is because we are able to anticipate what can happen, faster and more accurate than any stupid computer could ever could. Sure, autopilot is more reactive but so are humans. See how a formula 1 driver reacts, shifts gears and how quickly he go around corners. It's better than any computer could.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/05/sorry-elon-musk-theres-no-clear-evidence-autopilot-saves-lives/

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/are-autonomous-cars-really-safer-than-human-drivers/


The other reason why I would trust a human being more than a computer is that a computer doesn't have a conscious, emotions or empathy. A person doesn cares about his/her existence and well being of the people in the car. Sure there are some really crazy people out there that don't value life, but those people are extremely rare. A computer will be designed to do just one thing but can screw up big time as it doesn't know that it exists or cares about its existence.This autopilot shows the inherent flaws in autonomous/autopilot driving and I won't ever turn it on even if I owned tesla.
Did you even read your own articles? Neither of those prove anything. The first just points out that there is no proof Tesla's Autopilot improves safety, it does not address autonomous cars at all. The second is about how testing should be done to avoid misleading statistics, not proof that autonomous cars are worse.

What makes humans better and a safer drive is because we are able to anticipate what can happen, faster and more accurate than any stupid computer could ever could.
Do you have proof of that? Human reaction times are in the 200-400 ms range, computers can react much quicker and computers will only get faster with time. Accuracy can come with technological advances. Computers can poll a ton of sensors at the same time, getting a much clearer picture of the situation than a human ever could, assuming that the sensor array can at least match the capabilities of our eyes. Autonomous cars could hypothetically outperform us in every regard except perhaps anticipation. Of course, in a futuristic world of autonomous cars, they don't need to anticipate what other cars are doing, 'cause they can all be networked and simply communicate their intentions.

The other reason why I would trust a human being more than a computer is that a computer doesn't have a conscious, emotions or empathy
Certainly a valid opinion. It's fair to dislike autonomous cars even if they are statistically better, but it doesn't make human drivers safer.
 

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Iconoclast
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I don't find a conscious, emotions, or empathy remotely trust inspiring...certainly not as much as objective rules. Intelligence and adaptability, sure, but in the service of hard and fast logical constraints, is what I'd want to entrust my safety to, not subjective and mutable emotion.
 

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See how a formula 1 driver reacts, shifts gears and how quickly he go around corners.
Friend, if everyone on the road were as good as a F1 pilot, we wouldn't need AI driving in the first place.
 

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I do. What makes humans better and a safer drive is because we are able to anticipate what can happen, faster and more accurate than any stupid computer could ever could. Sure, autopilot is more reactive but so are humans. See how a formula 1 driver reacts, shifts gears and how quickly he go around corners. It's better than any computer could.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/05/sorry-elon-musk-theres-no-clear-evidence-autopilot-saves-lives/

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/are-autonomous-cars-really-safer-than-human-drivers/


The other reason why I would trust a human being more than a computer is that a computer doesn't have a conscious, emotions or empathy. A person does cares about his/her existence and well being of the people in the car. Sure there are some really crazy people out there that don't value life, but those people are extremely rare. A computer will be designed to do just one thing but can screw up big time as it doesn't know that it exists or cares about its existence.This autopilot shows the inherent flaws in autonomous/autopilot driving and I won't ever turn it on even if I owned tesla.
I would like your opinion on how many people are F1 level drivers, and I would like to see you personally drive at that level before you make that claim. Roads are only as safe as the worst driver in the area, not the best.

Human emotions lead to things like
  • Everyone does 70 in this 55, so I can too.
  • I really need that exit, it should be OK to cut off that Semi.
  • Crossing two lanes at once is fine.
  • A few beers will be fine.
  • Peeling out is fun!
  • Oh that dude has a nice car too, lets race.
  • Yes I'm one two hours of sleep but I must get to work.
  • Man screw that guy in front of me, get out of the left or I'll tailgate you for miles!
  • I should brake-check that semi.
  • 25 in a residential is a suggestion, I know I can do 40.
  • Traffic is going smoothly, I don't need 3 seconds of distance from the guy in front of me.
  • Traffic is heavy, I'm not going to let that guy merge.
  • Responding to just this one text should be okay.
  • I need to get my makeup up, I'm late as is.
  • I should use one of my hands to hold a cellphone close to my head so I can be heard clearly.

I have personally seen, or personally done, every one of those. Humans do not make good judgement calls, and our reaction time is poor. We get distracted easily. It does not matter what your intentions are in that two seconds before your fatal crash, but what they are every moment of the time you drive. I know plenty of people that have zero issue doing 90 down the highway changing lanes to maintain speed and pass others when they have a minivan full of kids, including their own. I'm certain they have empathy, but I am equally certain they feel justified as they think they will be late and it is "worth the risk".

Essentially this entire thing is just me agreeing with Blameless. True, autonomous cars will be far superior to us, the same as any other task we put them in charge of. We would not build them otherwise. They will have stupidly quick reaction times, they will have the required networking to communicate with each other and the grid as a whole, and they will be able to report problems without putting themselves at risk.

Most importantly, they will follow every law to the letter, every time.

I do love driving, absolutely nothing beats road trips like my last one to DC through the mountains. I have a nice car, that I take good care of. I have researched how to make it a nicer car. I have been in only one accident in my life thus far, and it was due to a human driver not judging the flow of traffic correctly and trying to cross when they did not have time. They took the risk because they were late to dinner with their boyfriend.

The very thing you say you trust a human for are the very things you should not trust a human for.
 

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https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2018/06/07/brighton-fatal-hit-and-run

“People hit and run people all the time,” the 23-year-old Brighton man told Boston 25.

He said he wasn’t under the influence when he was driving the car.

“I was listening to my music, but, as I’m driving, I’m driving too quick,” Fitts said. “So I’m driving too quick to the point where it’s like I couldn’t really stop, but it was a green light. So as the guy was walking — the light is green, I’m driving, and I’m pressing the horn, pressing the horn, beep, beep, beep, beep. It was either I was going to die and crash into a pole, so when it came down to it, man — accidents happen, man.”

-----

Most drivers I encounter on a day-to-day basis are closer to this moron than they are to Mario Andretti.
 

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This is why computers should NEVER ever be trusted no matter how safe they may appear. I'll take my chances with a human behind the wheel thank you very much.



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So. You should never fly in a plane, about 90% of the flight is auto pilot now. You should never buy anything. Because most of the things you buy are assembled by robots now. The plastic deck chair, robot made. Traffic is out, because traffic lights are controlled by a computer. You must be using solar panels on a hand built machine because electricity is 99% automated now. If you are in the trust no computer camp. Don't get sick and go to the hospital. The very machine that will keep you alive is a computer.
 

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I drive over 80 miles a day to and from work. About 70% of people shouldn't be allowed to drive at all, it amazing how many people have no idea what the left lane is for, what yield means, what an appropriate 80MPH gap is, how to merge, or how to maintain a vehicle and control one. Many of them would rather be doing any number of things than driving so they do. I can't even tell you how many wrecks I've saved myself from by paying attention when the cars around me weren't.


I've seen some of the autonomous off road vehicles, I'll take that over general scumbag humans any day. Humans could drive really well but throw a bunch of ******* into traffic with a minimum 1 second reaction time and a cellphone and every one is in danger. Hell the same people driving cars would walk trough an intersection without once looking up from their phone and aside from the legal action against drivers, I'm glad those people periodically get mowed down.


A few months a go on my way home I got stuck in traffic (very unusual). 3 hours later I saw the pile of truck that caused it. The news said the first driver fell asleep, dropped off the shoulder, pulled it back on the road an into another truck. AI wouldn't have done that and it surely wouldn't be texting. Once mature I really hope it becomes a standard because dealing with these idiots in +2 ton metal boxes is very stressful.
 

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I drive over 80 miles a day to and from work. About 70% of people shouldn't be allowed to drive at all, it amazing how many people have no idea what the left lane is for, what yield means, what an appropriate 80MPH gap is, how to merge, or how to maintain a vehicle and control one. Many of them would rather be doing any number of things than driving so they do. I can't even tell you how many wrecks I've saved myself from by paying attention when the cars around me weren't.


I've seen some of the autonomous off road vehicles, I'll take that over general scumbag humans any day. Humans could drive really well but throw a bunch of ******* into traffic with a minimum 1 second reaction time and a cellphone and every one is in danger. Hell the same people driving cars would walk trough an intersection without once looking up from their phone and aside from the legal action against drivers, I'm glad those people periodically get mowed down.


A few months a go on my way home I got stuck in traffic (very unusual). 3 hours later I saw the pile of truck that caused it. The news said the first driver fell asleep, dropped off the shoulder, pulled it back on the road an into another truck. AI wouldn't have done that and it surely wouldn't be texting. Once mature I really hope it becomes a standard because dealing with these idiots in +2 ton metal boxes is very stressful.
A lot this misbehavior can be accredited to the fact that officers on the road in North America are not enforcing the correct driving habits. In North America, the majority of cars are automatic. You know why? To allow people to "multi-task" whilst driving... So Mr.Johnson can drink his coffee and answer his phone all while driving. Even to buy a manual car here is quite difficult. You have to go out of your way to find one and even then, you're driving on a road filled with people who don't understand the concept of a clutch or coasting. It's either GAS or BRAKE!!!

Since people from a young age only use such cars, they never learn the fundamentals of how a car works. Like you would by learning a manual transmission.

Second, we've all learned that the LEFT lane is the passing lane. If you're on a two lane road out in the country, i'd wager a lot of people will understand this. However, once you get into a metropolitan area.... it's the wild west! People are passing you in the right lane, shoulder, heck even the side walk. There is just so much wrong with how the system works here... I honestly surprised there aren't more deaths per year from vehicle accidents.

Now look at Europe. No matter where you are, people understand that the Left lane (or right lane in the U.K.) is the passing lane. If you're caught driving in the left lane when you're not passing, you will be fined. As well, it's about 90% of the market in Europe drive manual. People (generally) have greater respect for the road & are not trying to eat a cake, drink a coffee, use their ipad, all while driving.

Sure Tip-tronic (dual clutch) systems are being more main stream but you'd be hard pressed to find an automatic car from the average person in Europe.

That's why in Germany, a system like the Auto-bahn can work. Imagine that in North America? It'd be a death trap.

Point being, education & enforcement would be a lot more beneficial & economical rather than expecting everyone & invest into autonomous cars.

Statistics:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

Total Fatalities per 100,000 Inhabitants:
Americas 15.9
Europe 9.3
No surprise there...
 

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Not to poke holes but I'm 26 or 27 and learned to drive stick whine I was about 8 or 9 lol. In a Ford Ranger with a long truck style shifter.
I love manual and rear wheel driver but since most people are dumb they drive the market here. We can't match the MPG of a CRX made in the late 80s early 90s because we need so much garbage mounted in and on the car and no one can drive stick.
I realize EU has it's issues but I'd move there in a heartbeat if I could, Americans are pathetic and proud of it.
Go ahead, preach national pride while the government steals from you and sneaks behind the constitution. If something leaks, no worries, gag orders for everyone!
 
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