[Neo_Morpheus]

Launched at $799, if you can find them at that price. Faster than a 3090ti according to Nvidia with charts of games using DLSS3.

Still I would have a bad taste if I paid $1999 for a 3090ti back in March.

 

[Paradigm Shifter]

Launched at $799, if you can find them at that price. Faster than a 3090ti according to Nvidia with charts of games using DLSS3.

Still I would have a bad taste if I paid $1999 for a 3090ti back in March.

So, not faster than a 3090Ti, then, unless using the Shiny New Thing?

I somewhat agree, but you've had nearly a year of use out of a 3090Ti, and bought at a time when prices were more than a little crazy... sooo... prices here are still a bit mental. Fluctuate a lot. But at least it's possible to get some cards for near their JP MSRP.

edit: Love that cat.

 

[zhrooms]

I suspect the memory bandwidth is what is going to hold it back, but it could still beat the 3090/Ti.

3090 has 37% more CCs/SMs..
3090 bandwidth is 85% higher.
4070 Ti core clock is 54% higher (and higher overclocking headroom).

I'm assuming it's using the same memory chips as the 4090, that could take them from 21 Gbps to 25 Gbps (+20%), so could see 600 GB/s bandwidth (still ~150 less than overclocked G6 on 2080 Ti).

With GPU performance rivaling the 3090/Ti (~50% faster than a 2080 Ti), I just can't see how the 600 GB/s memory bandwidth will not hold it back to some extent. The 4090 is already held back a lot and looks like 4070 Ti might be too.

Either way, 4070 Ti sounds amazing on paper compared to the 4080, the efficiency/price performance will be ridiculously good, the same power connector on all cards too which means BIOS flashing will be completely "open" (flash any BIOS to any card). We might even see very high power limits on some BIOSes if lucky (420 or above), since the 16-pin connector is more or less unlimited, all up to the partners, how big the VRM is I guess, and going by the images that has popped up, almost all cards are custom PCBs with large VRMs, would not surprise me if we will see at least one BIOS that go up to 420-450W like on the 4080. Personally I'd probably downvolt it to 250W, get the cheapest card with the best cooler, tweak it for absolute peak efficiency, "should" still be able to beat a 3090/Ti (will easily beat them in RT/DLSS 3) and consume very little power/run very quiet.

The reason for me making this thread, which I typically don't, on lower cards than xx80, is because of all the custom PCBs, the cards are just as massive as the 4080/4090, similar PCB and VRM (supposedly).

 

[Slaughtahouse]

“$799 USD”

Spoiler: Bestbuy Canada retail prices

Exchange rate = $888 for the cheapest AIB card.

Spoiler: Exchange rate

It’ll need to compete with the 7900 XT as you can easily find XTs in stock for around $900. It may be a better value than a 4080 16GB but that is nothing to write home about.

Maybe in 8 months when they drop the price it’ll be interesting but buying an RTX 3090/ Ti level card with half the VRAM for at min. 888 USD is not going to entice a whole lot of people.

 

[Skorpian]

The whole " 3 times faster than the 3090 Ti " is only using frame generation as far as I know, which can be good or terrible according to the game you're playing because of the additional input latency. It's grossly misleading.

 

[zhrooms]

Just checked the reviews, the GN one is extremely disingenuous, ignore it. They're comparing one of the slowest custom cards (TUF) on the market against the second fastest 3090 Ti..

Looking at any other reviews, like Guru3D and SweClockers, 4070 Ti SuprimX and Gaming OC both beat the 3090 Ti FE with ease, both RT and Non-RT.

Something Steve barely pointed out, is how much more efficient the 4070 Ti is.

EVGA 3090 Ti FTW3 = 71°C Avg Temp with fan RPM at ~1650 and power consumption at a ridiculous 503W.​

​

ASUS 4070 Ti TUF = 61°C Average Temp with the fan RPM at ~1400 and power consumption at just 290W.​

Remember.. these cards perform about the same in the above comparison, give or take 5-10% depending on title and which model (factory overclock) you get. But it's safe to say that on average they're trading blows, with a slight advantage in RT and DLSS to the 4070 Ti.

It's thus obvious that the 4070 Ti is a significantly better card than any 3090 Ti, as it pulls ~160-210W less power and run ~10°C cooler with quieter fans, while being a tad slower (the lower end TUF) than a (highest end) 3090 Ti FTW3, but faster than FE and other lower end 3090 Ti's.

Currently 3090 Ti is being sold used with 1 year warranty left for ~€950, and you should be able to get a 4070 Ti for roughly the same €950, which includes 2 years store warranty here in the EU.

As for the 3090, they are cheaper but also significantly slower (non OC models at 350W), no warranty and they still go for about €800, I'd personally gladly pay €150 more for a brand new 2 year warranty 4070 Ti that is up to 10-15% faster.

Then the question become, how much will the 3090 go down in price on the used market? I would not touch one for anything above €700, not even a Strix OC. Going to be interesting seeing where they end up.

 

[Sir Beregond]

Then the question become, how much will the 3090 go down in price on the used market? I would not touch one for anything above €700, not even a Strix OC. Going to be interesting seeing where they end up.

I should hope the 3090 does go down in price, because if it and the 3090 Ti don't, its just gen on gen price/performance stagnation. Also as impressive as the performance is for the power, I still don't think the real price of $850-$950 I am sure these cards will really go for will ever feel great for a "70" branded card that is typically aimed at the mid-range gamer. Mid-range isn't close to $1k.

 

[Slaughtahouse]

-snip-

Honestly, the product it self appears to be great. Yes, a card drawing 50% power of a flag ship with similar performance is also great. The issue is simply pricing. For a XX70 series card, it should be cheaper. $699 makes more sense in the context last gen if you factor in high inflation.

The cold reality is that Ampere MSRP was simply unobtainable for the vast majority of consumers. If you look at what 3070's and 3080's actually sold for, then these prices sort of make sense. Seems odd that most reviewers are comparing these new cards to Ampere MSRP. Did they forget that a 3080 at $699 didn't really exist beyond the very beginning before tarrifs and mining went insane?

Spoiler: GeForce RTX 3080 10GB (Average price in USD over last 18 months)

Current Video Cards Price Trends - PCPartPicker

Current Video Cards Price Trends

pcpartpicker.com

Spoiler: GeForce RTX 3070 (Average price in USD over last 18 months)

The graphics card market needs to be corrected but it may take more time than people originally thought. A lot of people will skip Ada and RDNA 3 besides enthusiasts.

 

[Dogzilla07]

The graphics card market needs to be corrected but it may take more time than people originally thought.

Exactly, just the pendulum of the mining boom swinging the other direction now (and it'll take longer, cause the mining disruption of the usual supply&demand was higher than the last time). Everything happening now, done by Nvidia and AMD is the correction, just not for the consumers. Everything done/everything happening is to correct the market for the companies by the companies.

The only thing that matters, that always mattered, is supply&demand. And they need to clear old stock before any other action (and by any means necessary). That's the only move from their side.

The only move from our side, the side of consumers is buying old stock, and used cards ASAP. the faster old stock clears, the faster used cards clear, the sooner the market returns to normal.

 

[Anton338]

the GN one is extremely disingenuous, ignore it

Steve Burke is such a sweaty neckbeard. I want to brush his hair and give him a bath so badly.

 

[Skorpian]

Why is it on 192 bit memory bus and not 256 tho that's kinda tilting. According to other OCN members, that's the reason its performance seems to dip at 4K.

 

[Forsaken1]

At this time, if you purchased a 4070TI you have been punked by the Nvidia machine.

 

[jtisgeek_1439]

Why is it on 192 bit memory bus and not 256 tho that's kinda tilting. According to other OCN members, that's the reason its performance seems to dip at 4K.

That's how it works when you lose the 2 memory modules. Just to be clear easy math you get 32 bit per memory chip.
6x 32 = 192 and 12GB cause there 2GB chips. 4080 8x 32 =256 and 16 GB.

4080 is also memory bandwidth limited and respond to memory overclocks.

 

[Skorpian]

That's how it works when you lose the 2 memory modules. Just to be clear easy math you get 32 bit per memory chip.
6x 32 = 192 and 12GB cause there 2GB chips. 4080 8x 32 =256 and 16 GB.

4080 is also memory bandwidth limited and respond to memory overclocks.

I'm no expert on such stuff I will admit, thanks for the explanation. However there are cards with less VRAM and yet more memory bandwidth ( like the 3070ti that is 256 bit at 8 GB ). Was there something limiting them on the 4070ti and the 4080 or is it just incompetence from nVidia?

 

[Paradigm Shifter]

I'm no expert on such stuff I will admit, thanks for the explanation. However there are cards with less VRAM and yet more memory bandwidth ( like the 3070ti that is 256 bit at 8 GB ). Was there something limiting them on the 4070ti and the 4080 or is it just incompetence from nVidia?

No. Wider memory buses cost more money and power. More money to design, more money to make (because silicon defects happen) and are more power hungry in operation.

Chances are, if someone x-ray'd the silicon, they'd find it's a 256-bit bus, with two channels/modules/whatever-you-want-to-call-them disabled to improve yields. That also gives the option of another model ("Super") in the future if/when yields improve enough.

 

[jtisgeek_1439]

I'm no expert on such stuff I will admit, thanks for the explanation. However there are cards with less VRAM and yet more memory bandwidth ( like the 3070ti that is 256 bit at 8 GB ). Was there something limiting them on the 4070ti and the 4080 or is it just incompetence from nVidia?

Yeah 3070ti is 1gb chips and theres 8 of them. It just a money design decision by Nvidia. Like 3070ti wasn't a great card for the price etc either. Also remember memory tech and speed matter as well as bus with its a balancing act.

 

[zhrooms]

Honestly, the product it self appears to be great. Yes, a card drawing 50% power of a flag ship with similar performance is also great. The issue is simply pricing. For a XX70 series card, it should be cheaper. $699 makes more sense in the context last gen if you factor in high inflation.

People need to forget the naming, kinda.

1920 CCs | G5 | 8GB | 256-bit | 150W | $450 = 1070
2432 CCs | G5 | 8GB | 256-bit | 180W | $450 = 1070 Ti (This card is literally a 1080 but with cheaper memory)
2560 CCs | G5X | 8GB | 256-bit | 180W | $600 = 1080
3584 CCs | G5X | 11GB | 352-bit | 250W | $700 = 1080 Ti
3840 CCs | G5X | 12GB | 384-bit | 250W | $1200 = Titan Xp (This card is basically the GTX 1090)

There is a clear difference between the 1070, 1080 and 1080 Ti (1920 > 2560 > 3584 and 3840 CCs on Titan Xp)
The 1070 Ti is basically a re-release of the 1080, so we can look at it like this:
1070 > 1080 > 1080 Ti > 1090

2304 CCs | G6 | 8GB | 256-bit | 175W | $500 = 2070
2560 CCs | G6 | 8GB | 256-bit | 215W | $500 = 2070 SUPER (This card is literally a 2070 but factory overclocked)
2944 CCs | G6 | 8GB | 256-bit | 215W | $700 = 2080
3072 CCs | G6 | 8GB | 256-bit | 250W | $700 = 2080 SUPER (This card is literally a 2080 but factory overclocked)
4352 CCs | G6 | 11GB | 352-bit | 250W | $1000 = 2080 Ti
4608 CCs | G6 | 24GB | 384-bit | 280W | $2500 = Titan (This card is basically the RTX 2090)

There is a clear difference again, between the 2070, 2080 and 2080 Ti (2304 > 2944 > 4352 and 4608 CCs on Titan)
You can ignore the SUPER models, they are basically the same card but with higher power limit out of box, then we can look at the 20 series like this:
2070 > 2080 > 2080 Ti > 2090

5888 | G6 | 8GB | 256-bit | 220W | $500 = 3070
6144 | G6X | 8GB | 256-bit | 290W | $600 = 3070 Ti (This card just has faster memory and higher overclock)
8704 | G6X | 10GB | 320-bit | 320W | $700 = 3080
8960 | G6X | 12GB | 384-bit | 350W | $800 = 3080 12GB (This is basically 3070 Ti and the 3080 is 3070)
10240 | G6X | 12GB | 384-bit | 350W | $1200 = 3080 Ti
10496 | G6X | 24GB | 384-bit | 350W | $1500 = 3090 (This is basically a Titan)
10752 | G6X | 24GB | 384-bit | 450W | $2000 = 3090 Ti (This is a 3090 but overclocked)

There are the normal jumps, 5888 > 8704 > 10240.

7680 | G6X | 12GB | 192-bit | 285W | $800 = 4070 Ti
9728 | G6X | 16GB | 256-bit | 320W | $1200 = 4080
16384 | G6X | 24GB | 384-bit | 450W | $1600 = 4090

Again jumps but with an exception for the 4090 which is absurd.

Let's try to summarize it,

GTX 1000 Series
1920 CCs for the 1070 | G5 | 8GB | 256-bit | 150W | $450
2432-2560 CCs for the 1070 Ti and 1080 | G5/G5X | 8GB | 256-bit | 180W | $450/600
3584-3840 CCs for the 1080 Ti and Titan | G5X | 11/12GB | 352/384-bit | 250W | $700/1200
Ok so, we have 3 separate GPUs clearly, 1070, 1080 and 1090
1070 = 1920 CCs | 8GB | 256-bit | 150W | $450
1080 = 2432 CCs | 8GB | 256-bit | 180W | $600
1090 = 3584 CCs | 11GB | 352-bit | 250W | $700
What is noteworthy here is how little power the 70 and 80 card consumed, especially the 70, that card can run on potato VRM (extremely cheap, which is why the card itself could be sold for just $450).

RTX 2000 Series
2070 = 2304 CCs | G6 | 8GB | 256-bit | 175W | $500
2080 = 2944 CCs | G6 | 8GB | 256-bit | 215W | $700
2090 = 4352 CCs | G6 | 11GB | 352-bit | 250W | $1000
Again, we clearly have 3 separate GPUs.

Differences:
1070 to 2070 = Faster memory, 25W higher power consumption, $50 higher price
1080 to 2080 = Same memory, 35W higher power consumption, $100 higher price
1090 to 2090 = Same memory, same power consumption, $300 higher price

RTX 3000 Series
5888-6144 CCs for the 3070 and 3070 Ti | G6/G6X | 256-bit | 220/290W | $500/600
8704-8960 CCs for the 3080 and 3080 12GB | G6X | 320/384-bit | 320/350W | $700/800
10240-10752 CCs for the 3080 Ti, 3090 and 3090 Ti | G6X | 384-bit | 350/450W | $1200/1500/2000
As expected.
3070 = 5888 CCs | G6 | 256-bit | 220W | $500
3080 = 8704 CCs | G6X | 320-bit | 320W | $700
3090 = 10240 CCs | G6X | 384-bit | 350W | $1200

Differences:
2070 to 3070 = Slower memory, 45W higher power consumption, same price
2080 to 3080 = Same memory, 105W higher power consumption, same price
2090 to 3090 = Same memory, 100W higher power consumption, $200 higher price

Now we can see that what really changes is the power consumption.

RTX 4000 Series
So, 4070 Ti was originally named 4080 12GB, but it was clearly never a 4080, since it has far fewer CCs, it perfectly matches a 4070, so that is what I will call it here, a 4070.
Differences:
3070 to 4070 = Faster memory, 65W higher power consumption, $300 higher price
3080 to 4080 = Same memory, same power consumption, $500 higher price
3090 to 4090 = Same memory, 100W higher power consumption, $400 higher price
It is definitely a bit disingenuous to compare the 3090 to the 4090, as the 3090 is a "Ti" of the 3080 Ti, what I am comparing is the slowest card of that CC range, we just have to wait for a 4080 Ti with about 15K CCs maybe.

On one hand it makes sense that the cards cost more, because the power keeps increasing significantly, which costs money (PCB/VRM).

Another summarization,
1070/Ti = 25% fewer CCs than the middle child (1080)
2070/Ti = 13% fewer CCs than the middle child (2080)
3070/Ti = 29% fewer CCs than the middle child (3080)
4070/Ti = 21% fewer CCs than the middle child (4080)

1070 = 150W
2070 = 215W (+65W from 1070/Ti)
3070 = 290W (+75W from 2070/Ti)
4070 = 285W (-5W from 3070/Ti)

1070/Ti = 8GB
2070/Ti = 8GB
3070/Ti = 8GB
4070/Ti = 12GB (+4GB)

1070/Ti = $450
2070/Ti = $500 (+$50)
3070/Ti = $600 (+$100)
4070/Ti = $800 (+$200)

1070/Ti is cut down a lot from the xx80, pulls very little power and is cheap
2070/Ti is barely cut down from the xx80, pulls a lot more power but is still cheap
3070/Ti is cut down a lot from the xx80, pulls a lot more power but costs more
4070/Ti is not as much cut down from the xx80, pulls less power and has 50% more VRAM but costs a lot more

3DMark Time Spy Graphics Score
1070/Ti = 5700
2070/Ti = 10100 (+77% higher performance than 1070/Ti)
3070/Ti = 14500 (+44% higher performance than 2070/Ti)
4070/Ti = 22500 (+55% higher performance than 3070/Ti)

This is really important to note, for 3070 to be 44% faster than 2070, it had to increase power consumption by 75W, but for the 4070 to be 55% faster than the 3070, it could REDUCE power consumption by 5W, not add another 75W, on top of that it has 4GB larger VRAM, just those two things combined explains why the card costs more, NVIDIA managed to squeeze out more performance than last gen without increasing power consumption, instead reduce it, that's extremely impressive, and it shows, the TUF in the GN review ran 61c avg at 290W with the fans at just 1400RPM, that's a crazy amount of performance for such a low temperature and power consumption.

I would have praised NVIDIA for the 4070 Ti if the price would have been $699, would've been a $100 bump from last gen but 4GB more VRAM and lower power consumption while still delivering 55% higher performance, that's as said, impressive. If you want a cheaper card just wait for the xx60.

xx80 summarization,
1080 = 28% fewer CCs than big brother (1090)
2080 = 32% fewer CCs than big brother (2090)
3080 = 15% fewer CCs than big brother (3090)
4080 = 40% fewer CCs than big brother (4090)

1080 = 180W
2080 = 215W (+35W from 1080)
3080 = 320W (+105W from 2080)
4080 = 320W

1080 = 8GB
2080 = 8GB
3080 = 10GB (+2GB)
4080 = 16GB (+6GB)

1080 = $600
2080 = $700 (+$100)
3080 = $700
4080 = $1200 (+$500)

1080 is cut down a lot from the xx90, pulls very little power and is cheap
2080 is cut down a lot from the xx90, pulls little power but costs more
3080 is barely cut down from the xx90, pulls a lot more power and has 25% more VRAM and costs the same
4080 is cut down significantly from the xx90, pulls the same power and has 60% more VRAM but costs a lot more

3DMark Time Spy Graphics Score
1080 = 7300
2080 = 11000 (+50% higher performance than 1080)
3080 = 17800 (+62% higher performance than 2080)
4080 = 27800 (+56% higher performance than 3080)

Again, NVIDIA managed to squeeze out 56% higher performance without increasing the power consumption, on top of that not only 25% increased VRAM like last generation, but 60%! It makes a lot of sense why the card costs a lot more, but that still doesn't justify what it costs. It also makes sense why 3080 cost the same as the 2080, the 3080 is clearly a "bad card" since the only way they could achieve 62% higher performance was to dramatically increase power consumption by 49% and barely increase VRAM size, the card simply run a lot hotter and louder and partner cards cost more.

3080 was clearly an inferior product to the 4080, so it makes complete sense why the 3080 didn't increase in price and the 4080 did. But who is to say how much that improvement is worth, $500 is a lot more (71%), I would probably have been completely fine with them charging $999, then it'd be $300 more for a much better product, 60% larger VRAM and 56% faster without adding any power/heat/noise, gaming 6 hours a day for 4 years, skipping 1 gen: 880kWh saved, 15 cents per kWh = $132 saved from NVIDIA not increasing power consumption by 100W to achive the 50-62% performance target gen over gen. So let's say the card was $999, and you saved $100+ over the time you kept it, then it'd be $900, so "just" $200 more than previous gen. That sounds fantastic to me, too bad it's not $999 though, $1199 is definitely too high).

xx90 summarization,
1090 = 250W
2090 = 250W
3090 = 350W (+100W higher power consumption)
4090 = 450W (+100W higher power consumption)

1090 = 11GB
2090 = 11GB
3090 = 11GB
4090 = 24GB (There is no Ti yet with less VRAM)

1090 = $700
2090 = $1000 (+$300)
3090 = $1200 (+$200)
4090 = $1600 (There is no Ti yet that shaves off a few hundred)

1090 = 9500
2090 = 13600 (+43% higher performance than the 1090)
3090 = 20100 (+48% higher performance than the 2090)
4090 = 29200 (There is no Ti yet, also CPU bottlenecking this card)

Can't really comment on the 4090 since there is no cheaper alternative in the 4090 family (a cut down 4090 called 4080 Ti).

The RTX 2080 Ti can be commented on though, same power consumption and 43% higher performance is very impressive and it cost $300 more (+43%). Same situation as now, NVIDIA didn't have to increase power consumption to get a near 50% performance leap gen over gen. 3090 (3080 Ti) can definitely be seen as a failed card, it got a little more performance than the gen before it but had to add 100W power consumption to do it, which also increased the price, costs to beef up the VRM to handle that TDP.

Conclusion is that people should have been far more pissed at the RTX 30 series costs, as the cards only reached those performance targets by increasing power/heat/noise, we had to "pay" for that. This time when we pay more we at least get something for it, no additional power/heat/noise but the same performance target increase. I'm absolutely fine with them increasing prices but just not this much, $699 for the 4070 Ti, $999 for the 4080 and $1249 for the 4080 Ti and $1499 for the 4090 sounds reasonable.. maybe.

Either way no one can complain about the 4070 Ti prices right now, as they cost new what a used 3090 Ti costs. In a few weeks the 3090/3090 Ti prices should have gone down a fair bit and by that point the 4070 Ti won't be as appealing anymore. But for now you'd be out of your mind to buy a used 3090/3090 Ti for the same price as a 4070 Ti, roughly the same performance but at 200W higher power consumption (and the increased heat/noise that comes with it).

 

[Paradigm Shifter]

People need to forget the naming, it clearly doesn't matter anymore.

It never did, but people like labels.

And "4070Ti" is easier than "AD104-60-7680-240/80/240/60-192/12G" (which would be [die]-[streaming multiprocessors]-[CUDA cores]-[TMU/ROP/Tensor/RT cores]-[memory bus/VRAM quantity]).

 

[zhrooms]

And "4070Ti" is easier than "AD104-60-7680-240/80/240/60-192/12G".

To really dumb the names down:

1070
2070 (2070/2070 SUPER)
3070 (3070/3070 Ti)
4070 (4070/4070 Ti)

1080 (1070 Ti/1080)
2080 (2080/2080 SUPER)
3080 (3080/3080 12GB)
4080

1090 (1080 Ti/Titan)
2090 (2080 Ti/Titan)
3090 (3080 Ti/3090/3090 Ti)
4090

I went from 1080 Ti (1090) to 2080 Ti (2090), skipped 3080 Ti (3090) but really want 4080 Ti (4090), refuse to pay as much as they cost, seriously contemplating getting a new 4070 Ti, extreme power/performance and absolutely demolishes any game in 1440p, will be a while before we get 4K OLED 240Hz.