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Discussion Starter · #2,181 ·


Since I mentioned it.

This is just one of around 50 or so pieces of prototype software, on disks in a disk binder, that I received with this Macintosh SE, bought locally for $75 in working condition.

The original listing had no mention of anything other than it coming with some floppy disks.




I didn't even pick the machine up, my wife did, and she said the former owners met in Cupertino in 1983 when one of them was doing an internship at Apple while working on a CS degree.

Indeed, the 400k MFS format Macintosh disks have many, many applications not found online, including some early games previously lost to time, and some of the applications have datestamps as early as Oct 1983. (The original Macintosh 128k launched in Jan 84.)

These were the first computers I learned how to use, and upon seeing what was on the disks, I immediately realized what they were and that it correlated with what my wife told me. So I ordered and installed a FloppyEmu SD card device for booting disk images made in the emulator, Mini Vmac.

I also totally disassembled and cleaned the unit, it was extremely dusty. I removed the failed 20MB SCSI hard disk, I upgraded the unit from its stock 1MB memory configuration to four 9-chip 1MB 80ns SIMMs (cutting access time to main memory roughly in half), and I partially disassembled, cleaned and relubricated the 800KB dual-sided FDD.

I then proceeded to image or otherwise save all of the programs I could on the failing diskettes from late 1983.

I'd estimate that I saved about 95% of the applications and contents out of about 20 diskettes- some were too far deteriorated to save.

None of the original diskettes are in use anymore, and are being kept in a climate and humidity controlled room. All are run off the SD card in the FloppyEmu. In the video, I was using a much newer floppy made around 2001, that had the software from the original diskette copied to it via FloppyEmu.

The software in the video above was explained/referenced in a newsgroup posting from 1985 we tracked down:

J. Eric Roskos (May 17, 1985):

This reminds me of a question that has been bothering me for a long
time. Back when the Apple Macintosh personal computer first came out,
there was a demo disk distributed to various dealers, etc., of a voice
synthesis program (it's the one that had different names over the
early part of the product life, names like MacinTalk, MacTalk, etc.,
and I don't know the name it has now or had then). Included with it
was a little demo that recited the well-known "In the olden days,
before 1984, not many people used computers, and for a very good
reason: not many knew how, and..." story.

Well, if you looked in the text file that contained the text of this
message, there was a delimiting string at the end of the message,
something like "#####", and then some more phonetic text. If you took
out the "####", after it got through telling you about Apple, it would
start giving you a little talk about how the Fairlight CMI worked! Why
is this? Was that voice synthesizer made by the same people who make
the CMI? Or is there a version of it that runs on the CMI? or what?

-----

[email protected] (May 20, 1985):

The name of the program was indeed Macintalk. It fell into obscurity
after last spring when it first released, was re-released (with better
sound) in December to a few developers, including myself, and is now
on the verge of falling into obscurity again. I really hope that Apple
finally finishes off the contract work on this thing and releases it
completely.

Macintalk was written by the same people who wrote SAM (Software
Automated Mouth) for the Atari and Apple II. They were commissioned
early on by Apple to do a Mac port, and it appeared in the original
Mac demo in January, '84 (on a 512K Mac!) Over the past year, I have
been able to collect bits and pieces of old Macintalk junk including
the Mac/Fairlight script mentioned earlier. The New (December '84)
Macintalk sounds a lot better. It sounds like a computer in its mid
30's rather than an old man whose false teeth are out for repair.

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!msg/comp.sys.mac.system/BOekHR6KGvg/-_OBQaXQAeMJ


This software, and many others on my diskettes, had never resurfaced before and was not available anywhere online in any archives of 68k Mac software for use in emulators.

Anyway, I hope you guys find this interesting. :thumb:
 

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Haven't been paying a lot of attention to OCN for a while. That's cool story about the Mac though. Have you thought about seeing if archive.org wants the image files?

Haven't had a lot of play time with retro games for quite a while. I've been working most recently on a file server for myself. Once I have a place to store everything I could ever want to store (like a ton ROMs and ISO files also PS3) I feel like I can move on to other things. Like occasionally /playing/ games.

I did start playing Links Awakening for Switch. If that counts as a retro game(?).
 

· technologist
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Discussion Starter · #2,183 ·
Haven't been paying a lot of attention to OCN for a while. That's cool story about the Mac though. Have you thought about seeing if archive.org wants the image files?

Haven't had a lot of play time with retro games for quite a while. I've been working most recently on a file server for myself. Once I have a place to store everything I could ever want to store (like a ton ROMs and ISO files also PS3) I feel like I can move on to other things. Like occasionally /playing/ games.

I did start playing Links Awakening for Switch. If that counts as a retro game(?).

I've looked, and apparently Jason Scott at archive.org had uploaded a small number of classic b&w 68k Macintosh apps and games.

However, I've tried and I cannot find a contact email listed for him anywhere on the site. I can't even find a generic contact email for the archive.

I absolutely want to do this and already looked into it myself- do you know how to get in touch with anyone there?
 

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I did some searching and found a "contribute" page but it owuldn't let me continue without a login.
So I created a quick login and switched over to the software part of archive.org but when I hit upload it still only mentions videos and audio recordings to upload. So I don't know if that includes software or not as I have nothing to experiment with.

I did find this contact page:
https://archive.org/about/contact.php

Looks like there's something of a forum and a FAQ with a contact email if that doesn't turn anything up.

I don't know if this is what you were looking for. Kind of wish I had something to contribute now. I'd kind of like to know.

This page might help too. Not sure if you have to be logged in to see it or not.
https://help.archive.org/hc/en-us/a...ow-to-upload-files-to-create-a-new-item-page-
 

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I know some might not view this as "retro," as I've heard Windows XP as being scoffed at in youtube videos discussing retro PC gaming, but someone pointed me towards this thread from my post in the Operating Systems directory, so I'm giving it a go here...

After I built my sig rig, I decided to turn my nearly 10 year old Core 2 Duo system into a Windows XP machine to run old games. It's an Intel E8400 on an Evga 780i board with 4gb's of DDR2 ram paired with a Radeon R9 270. Works satisfactorily, but I've been considering "upgrading" to a DDR3 platform, specifically an I3 2100 on an Intel Dq77mk motherboard with 8gb of DDR3 ram that I can purchase used locally.
Would any old souls out here be able to tell me whether I would see any benefits to such an upgrade an old XP Retro Gaming system?
I'm also curious if anyone else out here tears up old games on an XP rig at all?
 

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Discussion Starter · #2,186 ·
Hey, I've gotten used to this thread being basically dead, but I can definitely help you out, as can another member who posted recently and does have a similar rig tmk.

I'll type out a proper answer later when I am more awake and at my keyboard, pm me if I forget to reply, I don't check this club anymore due to it being dead.

Also, WinXP is definitely retro given that it came out in 2001 or about that. This club is more about retro games consoles but everyone agrees (including places outside these forums) that the Dreamcast, Xbox, Gamecube and PS2 are solidly retro and WinXP PCs were literally the same era.

Personally I think it depends. Because Vista sucked and 7 didnt come out until 2009 and didn't reach a decent install base until 2010. If you are talking playing DX9 games (Skyrim was..) on WinXP on Sandy Bridge then no not really. If you are talking playing Doom 3 or other contemporary games on an Athlon XP 1800+ and a Geforce 256 or Radeon 9800 then yes, of course it is retro. :) EDIT: And if you have much faster hardware but are playing games from 2001-2007 then it is retro too. If you have access to older hardware and go backwards I just find that cooler tbh.
 

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I know some might not view this as "retro," as I've heard Windows XP as being scoffed at in youtube videos discussing retro PC gaming, but someone pointed me towards this thread from my post in the Operating Systems directory, so I'm giving it a go here...

After I built my sig rig, I decided to turn my nearly 10 year old Core 2 Duo system into a Windows XP machine to run old games. It's an Intel E8400 on an Evga 780i board with 4gb's of DDR2 ram paired with a Radeon R9 270. Works satisfactorily, but I've been considering "upgrading" to a DDR3 platform, specifically an I3 2100 on an Intel Dq77mk motherboard with 8gb of DDR3 ram that I can purchase used locally.
Would any old souls out here be able to tell me whether I would see any benefits to such an upgrade an old XP Retro Gaming system?
I'm also curious if anyone else out here tears up old games on an XP rig at all?

Alright, almost forgot about this. Lets go through it.

Getting scoffed at is probably from guys my age and older who don't see a system of that vintage as being retro, or any WinXP system really, or 3D games.

However, I'm a little in between and can understand theres people younger than me/ a whole generation now who grew up playing mostly nothing but 3D games, and right now the N64 is pretty hot/desirable in the console space for this reason (and has been for a few years), driving a major price boom. Similar to the snes for guys my age (mid 30s) back around 2011, causing Super Mario World and Zelda LttP to go from being $15 games to $40 games.

Anyway, PC wise I grew up and when I first started/used PCs in school they had 386sx 25mhz or 486 dx2 66mhz and Windows 3.11 for Workgroups. All games were dos games. Later I played tons of mid 90s dos games like Duke3d, Terminal Velocity, Descent, Final Doom, Tyrian,Jazz Jackrabbit, etc. etc. and later Quake 3 Arena and Unreal Tournament. So to me my dream machine would be an overclockable Athlon 600mhz, DDR-333 cas 2, Geforce 256 or something else capable of Doom 3, and dual booting 98se (or DOS 6.22) and WinXP SP2. Using Dos for those games and XP for UT, Q3A etc. With a GPU that can run UT 2k4 because Onslaught mode.

Anyway, I get your point. Do you already have the Sandy i3? Yes, you will get better performance (especially in Crysis or Oblivion or other 2007+ games). Having better single core IPC and DDR3 would hopefully increase minimum fps and raise average and maximums.

My suggestion would be determining how recent you can go and still have functioning drivers. I would think that even some boards that only have Win7 drivers available might have compatibility with WinXP but you may need to decompress the .cab files, and install drivers manually from device manager in WinXP by doing Have Disk.. and pointing it to the .inf file.

If thats the case I would go full bore with a bare metal install of XP and try and go as recent as possible, possibly even Haswell or Ivy, probably an i5 (more cache! Old games love cache!) and acquire some 'Samsung Miracle RAM' DDR3 and run it at 2400mhz cas 10.

Then I would sell the R9 270 and get an older GPU from 2008-2009 era. Possibly older. An 8800GT/9800 GTX/GTX 285/4870x2/5870/3870 or the like. Running the last drivers released (Catalyst 12.xx is the latest for these cards for ATI afaik)

The gpu should be older for better compatibility with old software, avoiding texture glitches/issues, etc. Might want a dedicated PhysX card too. AMD usually maintains great compatibility with older software, better than Nvidia , I think selling the 270 and going with a 4870x2 would fare better and shred old games and be more compatible with buggy old ganes...

Also playing with some crazy hardware from that era like an 8 core dual socket AMD FASN8 Phenom platform, Core 2 Extreme or similar dual socket, AMD FX-62, etc. is infinitely cooler imo just like owning an older sports car - these setups were crazy expensive then! Throw in some old SATA 1 hdds and dual boot Linux and you got yourself a cheap NAS when you arent gaming on it (do a dual Linux Mint/WinXP build, use Samba in Linuz2 for file hosting/streaming)

As for me no interest in older 3d/WinXP games but DOS games I mentioned, and I have like 24 consoles as well and a huge backlog so yeah.

Hope this helps answer your questions, check this out too, its relevant.

 
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Alright, almost forgot about this. Lets go through it.

Getting scoffed at is probably from guys my age and older who don't see a system of that vintage as being retro, or any WinXP system really, or 3D games.

However, I'm a little in between and can understand theres people younger than me/ a whole generation now who grew up playing mostly nothing but 3D games, and right now the N64 is pretty hot/desirable in the console space for this reason (and has been for a few years), driving a major price boom. Similar to the snes for guys my age (mid 30s) back around 2011, causing Super Mario World and Zelda LttP to go from being $15 games to $40 games.

Anyway, PC wise I grew up and when I first started/used PCs in school they had 386sx 25mhz or 486 dx2 66mhz and Windows 3.11 for Workgroups. All games were dos games. Later I played tons of mid 90s dos games like Duke3d, Terminal Velocity, Descent, Final Doom, Tyrian,Jazz Jackrabbit, etc. etc. and later Quake 3 Arena and Unreal Tournament. So to me my dream machine would be an overclockable Athlon 600mhz, DDR-333 cas 2, Geforce 256 or something else capable of Doom 3, and dual booting 98se (or DOS 6.22) and WinXP SP2. Using Dos for those games and XP for UT, Q3A etc. With a GPU that can run UT 2k4 because Onslaught mode.

Anyway, I get your point. Do you already have the Sandy i3? Yes, you will get better performance (especially in Crysis or Oblivion or other 2007+ games). Having better single core IPC and DDR3 would hopefully increase minimum fps and raise average and maximums.

My suggestion would be determining how recent you can go and still have functioning drivers. I would think that even some boards that only have Win7 drivers available might have compatibility with WinXP but you may need to decompress the .cab files, and install drivers manually from device manager in WinXP by doing Have Disk.. and pointing it to the .inf file.

If thats the case I would go full bore with a bare metal install of XP and try and go as recent as possible, possibly even Haswell or Ivy, probably an i5 (more cache! Old games love cache!) and acquire some 'Samsung Miracle RAM' DDR3 and run it at 2400mhz cas 10.

Then I would sell the R9 270 and get an older GPU from 2008-2009 era. Possibly older. An 8800GT/9800 GTX/GTX 285/4870x2/5870/3870 or the like. Running the last drivers released (Catalyst 12.xx is the latest for these cards for ATI afaik)

The gpu should be older for better compatibility with old software, avoiding texture glitches/issues, etc. Might want a dedicated PhysX card too. AMD usually maintains great compatibility with older software, better than Nvidia , I think selling the 270 and going with a 4870x2 would fare better and shred old games and be more compatible with buggy old ganes...

Also playing with some crazy hardware from that era like an 8 core dual socket AMD FASN8 Phenom platform, Core 2 Extreme or similar dual socket, AMD FX-62, etc. is infinitely cooler imo just like owning an older sports car - these setups were crazy expensive then! Throw in some old SATA 1 hdds and dual boot Linux and you got yourself a cheap NAS when you arent gaming on it (do a dual Linux Mint/WinXP build, use Samba in Linuz2 for file hosting/streaming)

As for me no interest in older 3d/WinXP games but DOS games I mentioned, and I have like 24 consoles as well and a huge backlog so yeah.

Hope this helps answer your questions, check this out too, its relevant.

https://youtu.be/46j6fDkMq9I

Thanks for the thorough response, my dude! I think we're cut from the same cloth. I too grew up playing Doom Shareware, Sim City, Battlechess and Commander Keen on a 486, sporting Windows 3.1. Good times... Then I graduated to AGP based systems with my old ATI Radeon X1950 256mb card running Quake 3 arena and Unreal Tournament and pre 1.6 Counter-Strike.

You raised an excellent point about GPU compatibility issues. When I was playing Crysis, it maintains a steady 60fps (in sync with the monitor's refresh rate), but has some weird texture issues when looking around. I want the CPU/Motherboard/Ram combo to be the latest gen I can get that's still compatible, but I should look into finding an older gen GPU that I can also get the most out of the system with.
It's funny that mention an 8800gt, because one of the iterations of this old system on XP, before the move to Win7, was an 8800gt. It ran Crysis back then.
 

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Seems to be plenty of issues with the 4870x2 so I think I would be looking at using a 5870.
 

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Alright, almost forgot about this. Lets go through it.



Getting scoffed at is probably from guys my age and older who don't see a system of that vintage as being retro, or any WinXP system really, or 3D games.



However, I'm a little in between and can understand theres people younger than me/ a whole generation now who grew up playing mostly nothing but 3D games, and right now the N64 is pretty hot/desirable in the console space for this reason (and has been for a few years), driving a major price boom. Similar to the snes for guys my age (mid 30s) back around 2011, causing Super Mario World and Zelda LttP to go from being $15 games to $40 games.



Anyway, PC wise I grew up and when I first started/used PCs in school they had 386sx 25mhz or 486 dx2 66mhz and Windows 3.11 for Workgroups. All games were dos games. Later I played tons of mid 90s dos games like Duke3d, Terminal Velocity, Descent, Final Doom, Tyrian,Jazz Jackrabbit, etc. etc. and later Quake 3 Arena and Unreal Tournament. So to me my dream machine would be an overclockable Athlon 600mhz, DDR-333 cas 2, Geforce 256 or something else capable of Doom 3, and dual booting 98se (or DOS 6.22) and WinXP SP2. Using Dos for those games and XP for UT, Q3A etc. With a GPU that can run UT 2k4 because Onslaught mode.



Anyway, I get your point. Do you already have the Sandy i3? Yes, you will get better performance (especially in Crysis or Oblivion or other 2007+ games). Having better single core IPC and DDR3 would hopefully increase minimum fps and raise average and maximums.



My suggestion would be determining how recent you can go and still have functioning drivers. I would think that even some boards that only have Win7 drivers available might have compatibility with WinXP but you may need to decompress the .cab files, and install drivers manually from device manager in WinXP by doing Have Disk.. and pointing it to the .inf file.



If thats the case I would go full bore with a bare metal install of XP and try and go as recent as possible, possibly even Haswell or Ivy, probably an i5 (more cache! Old games love cache!) and acquire some 'Samsung Miracle RAM' DDR3 and run it at 2400mhz cas 10.



Then I would sell the R9 270 and get an older GPU from 2008-2009 era. Possibly older. An 8800GT/9800 GTX/GTX 285/4870x2/5870/3870 or the like. Running the last drivers released (Catalyst 12.xx is the latest for these cards for ATI afaik)



The gpu should be older for better compatibility with old software, avoiding texture glitches/issues, etc. Might want a dedicated PhysX card too. AMD usually maintains great compatibility with older software, better than Nvidia , I think selling the 270 and going with a 4870x2 would fare better and shred old games and be more compatible with buggy old ganes...



Also playing with some crazy hardware from that era like an 8 core dual socket AMD FASN8 Phenom platform, Core 2 Extreme or similar dual socket, AMD FX-62, etc. is infinitely cooler imo just like owning an older sports car - these setups were crazy expensive then! Throw in some old SATA 1 hdds and dual boot Linux and you got yourself a cheap NAS when you arent gaming on it (do a dual Linux Mint/WinXP build, use Samba in Linuz2 for file hosting/streaming)



As for me no interest in older 3d/WinXP games but DOS games I mentioned, and I have like 24 consoles as well and a huge backlog so yeah.



Hope this helps answer your questions, check this out too, its relevant.



https://youtu.be/46j6fDkMq9I


I mean if you wouldn’t mind Windows 2000 I believe I read somewhere that a guy had ported Z170 chipset drivers and GTX 1000 series to Windows 2000 and they are readily available, I’ll see if I can find a link for it.

Edit: My bad it actually was Windows XP, check this thread out if you are interested: https://www.win-raid.com/t2772f45-Windows-Bit-OS-iNTEL-SATA-amp-Gaming-Discussions-XP.html
 
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I mean if you wouldn’t mind Windows 2000 I believe I read somewhere that a guy had ported Z170 chipset drivers and GTX 1000 series to Windows 2000 and they are readily available, I’ll see if I can find a link for it.

Edit: My bad it actually was Windows XP, check this thread out if you are interested: https://www.win-raid.com/t2772f45-Windows-Bit-OS-iNTEL-SATA-amp-Gaming-Discussions-XP.html

If thats the case then you should just go with a Z170, 6600k and a cheap used GTX 1060 and max every game on XP.

Crysis and other late games (Stalker, some others) are very demanding and since seeing how crappy Crysis runs on an 8800 GT you should just go overkill and run XP on something recent.

Also look for a late (2005) flat Trinitron or Toshiba CRT but good ones are getting expensive. You might need a DVI to VGA passive converter or something to be able to connect it.

Tbh monitor technology probably matters most. Black levels, contrast ratio, response time, etc. are all vastly superior on a quality CRT- even better than modern OLED. Look for a good aperture grill or shadow mask CRT.

 

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Oh and a update my my project for the old W98/2K build, I have sorta put it to the side for now, my main rig (Z97 with Broadwell i7) the board is dying so I figured it was time for a total system update to X570. However I did talk to someone around here where I live and this guy might have a late PIII/early P4 era system in his parents house back in Baltimore so I told him if he wanted a set of DDR4 ram I’d be willing to trade my wife’s old kit for that old system. Depending on what condition it is I might be able to strip it down and see what there is to work with. If its in like an old acer or dell case I have a case I might be able to mod to get it to work in, USB 3.0 header wouldn’t get any use but really It didn’t get any use either when I had my EVGA 790i Ultra in there back before it blew up.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2,193 ·


I love retro pc games but I own like every Sega console ever (actually a lie LOL I don't have a CD-X, JVC X'eye, Wondermega, or Nomad ;) )

1989 Yamaha style :p
 

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Discussion Starter · #2,194 ·


Last year's SFIII: 3rd Strike nationals in Japan basically

At this point I think everyone has seen the Umehara Daigo parry vid so surely, we can appreciate the skill on display here across generational gaps lol

I've played the game since 2003 myself and used to drive out and play at Capcom's Nickel City in Northbrook, IL (Chicago).

Not many want to learn the game anymore, with 1 frame links (combos that have to be done in 1/60th of a second lol)
 

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Whoa

This is definetly a interesting thread!!!

Due to this coronavirus crazyness I find myself quarantined in my own block since early March and due to the huge free time I can have after smartworking

you know, smart cough! working cough! ........



and since children and wife are out almost all day to allow me to , hum, smartworking, I lost my mind into a pentium 1 build and a p3 coppermine build for my voodoo 1 and voodoo 5

Soooo, I think I'll put something here in the next days :D
 

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Last build I'm working on





Last one is just a preview to see how it looks from the plexy side

Components:

Thermaltake Armor Jr (ventola 120 noctua in e 120 out)
P3 Coppermine 1ghz 133fsb
Mobo compaq garcia i815
Ram 2x128mb PC133 SDRAM CL3
3dfx VooDoo 5 5500 64mb agp2x
Scheda audio Genius Maker 5.1 Pci
Ethernet realtek 8139c 100mbit
Hd maxtor [email protected] ntfs
Alimentatore atx Bestec 300W
Floppy
Masterizzatore dvd pata Philips
Rehobus Schyte 3,5” I'll use just the two temp sensors, case fans will be left at full speed and are hooked directly to the psu


Right now it has a OG windows xp installation but I can't install pretty anything that worth it so I'm trying to install SPs on it but can't find any reliable source for it... In a time being I think I'll do a dual boot with Win98SE.

ps: I reused a hdd cage I had lying around from a bitfenix case because the original one I think was gone, since the case was painted in black internally by the previous owner the paint is falling down whenever I strenght something in the 5,25'' bays and it looks ugly but atm I don't have time to do something different, maybe I'll cover it with some sticker ahahahh
 

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Just purchased a dual socket P-III Tualtin motherboard, gonna have some fun with that in a few days
 

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Are u gonna put windows 2k on it? I wonder how well does it support dual socket systems...
 

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Are u gonna put windows 2k on it? I wonder how well does it support dual socket systems...

Probably 2k for dual socket mode and 98se for single socket mode, according to the manufacturer it supports 2 x 1.4GHz P-III’s running full speed no issues, and 2GB of SDRAM PC-133 officially, possibly 4GB with 4 x 1GB sticks.

As far as GPU goes that’s up in the air, on one hand I could get a Nvidia 6800 Ultra AGP, Radeon HD 4670 AGP or a Radeon HD 3850 AGP, but neither have windows 98 drivers and the HD 3850 and 4670 don’t have 2k drivers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2,200 · (Edited)
Not sure what to say, but traditionally this thread had been an offshoot of the Sega fanclub and the PSP fanclub, with my friends Mega Man and jetpak12 from each, so it was more about retro console hardware and game collecting than retro pc stuff.

Tbh I really have no desire to go back to buggy Win98 or XP, especially when I use modern linux. I only ever really got into very popular pc games like Duke3D, Doom, Tyrian, Descent and Jazz Jackrabbit. I played a lot of Q3A and UT as well. However, many of these have homebrew or official ports to PS Vita so I can play those, all the Quake games, etc. on that (with a pad though, which is fine for Tyrian or Jazz)

Other than that though I'd use Dosbox, but I have legit copies of every good Snes RPG (Chrono Trigger), SMS with 3D glasses, PC Engine, working Sega CD model 1, etc. I must have 70+ Genesis games and also both Shining Force, all the PS games (even a CIB Phantasy Star for SMS worth $200..) All of that is more my interest, as well as NES, Atari, Coleco, arcades, even Wii, PS2, PSP, Vita, DS, 3DS, 360, PS3, Xbox (OG), etc.

Dunno but I miss my old friends in this thread. Retro pcs unfortunately were never really the main focus of this thread. Not interested in discussing retro pcs more. Go ahead. Sorry :thumbsdow
 
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