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Discussion Starter #1
Quote:
According to a new report from German newspaper Redaktions Netzwerk Deutschland (RND), Germany's Interior Minister, Thomas de Maizièr, has written a draft proposal in which he would like German cars, as well as other digital devices being sold in Germany, to grant police backdoor access. The minister is expected to present the proposal at next week's Ministry of Interior conference.

Giving Police More Surveillance Powers

According to the RND report, the German minister would like intelligence agencies and police to gain "exclusive" access to cars, as well as digital devices such as computers, mobile devices, kitchen appliances, and smart TVs. The "back door" access would, in essence, allow the government to bypass the security protections some of these devices have. The police have been complaining that sometimes they can't install intercept equipment on some cars because their security systems are "too good."

Maizièr would also like cars and digital devices to have a "kill switch" the government can use at will to shut down certain devices, allegedly to stop cybercrime.
Source.

The emissions scandal wasn't enough to tarnish the industry apparently.
doh.gif
 

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Let's ignore any issues about privacy, probable cause, innocent until proven guilty (which I don't believe Germany's legal system even uses), and so on.

If a backdoor is created, a backdoor can be discovered. Any time these are implemented, a third-party will be able to discover and abuse these. Want to shutdown random cars on the Autobahn during rush hour? Go for it! Why not? The capabilities are there.

These never end well.
 

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I mean, don't most modern cars have a government backdoor already? OnStar for example? All it takes is one call, and law enforcement can track or stop any GPS enabled vehicle.
 

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Germany's interior minister is a shortsighted fascist technophobe.

If the police can do it, you damn well better believe thieves and and malware writers can do it faster and better...not that anyone in their right mind would want the police to have that power even if they could keep it to themselves.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

Source.

The emissions scandal wasn't enough to tarnish the industry apparently.
doh.gif
See its stuff like this that I think is the real threat to the public, far more so than anything any corporation can do. With the power governments wield they can enact stuff like this by fiat and there is no recourse for the people. Companies may be able to rip you off (at the expense of their public relations) but governments can do the same and a lot more by using the almighty power of the law. At the end of the day, the government is NOT your "friend", yet so many people nowadays want MORE government involved in every aspect of their lives...
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalUnicorn View Post

Let's ignore any issues about privacy, probable cause, innocent until proven guilty (which I don't believe Germany's legal system even uses), and so on.

If a backdoor is created, a backdoor can be discovered. Any time these are implemented, a third-party will be able to discover and abuse these. Want to shutdown random cars on the Autobahn during rush hour? Go for it! Why not? The capabilities are there.

These never end well.
Extremely good point
thumb.gif
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

the government is NOT your "friend", yet so many people nowadays want MORE government involved in every aspect of their lives...
sigh
rolleyes.gif


Accountability goes a long way for some, this guy not so much lol
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

Source.

The emissions scandal wasn't enough to tarnish the industry apparently.
doh.gif
See its stuff like this that I think is the real threat to the public, far more so than anything any corporation can do. With the power governments wield they can enact stuff like this by fiat and there is no recourse for the people. Companies may be able to rip you off (at the expense of their public relations) but governments can do the same and a lot more by using the almighty power of the law. At the end of the day, the government is NOT your "friend", yet so many people nowadays want MORE government involved in every aspect of their lives...
The government is supposed to represent the people whereas companies represent themselves, that's a crucial difference. As I mentioned in the OP, some companies are not just 'ripping you off', they are willing to go so far as cheating regulations and contribute to global pollution, which kills hundreds of thousands of people every year. If that is not a serious misconduct of private entities, I don't know what is. Let me guess, not having the regulations that they cheated would have somehow led to a better outcome?

This isn't an all or nothing discussion and people shouldn't have a one track mind a priori about the need or not need for regulations. Some are good, some are bad, like everything else in life. Critical thinking is where we go into the detail of each, its rationale and then evaluate it.

Counterproductive proposals that don't understand the core of the problem, such as the one in the news in the OP, are objectively that, regardless of whether the entity proposing it is public or private. The reach of said proposals can be big if deployed by a government, but harmful actions and / or lobbying by private, multinational conglomerates can be just as bad, it all depends on their size and influence.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

See its stuff like this that I think is the real threat to the public, far more so than anything any corporation can do. With the power governments wield they can enact stuff like this by fiat and there is no recourse for the people. Companies may be able to rip you off (at the expense of their public relations) but governments can do the same and a lot more by using the almighty power of the law. At the end of the day, the government is NOT your "friend", yet so many people nowadays want MORE government involved in every aspect of their lives...
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

The government is supposed to represent the people whereas companies represent themselves, that's a crucial difference. As I mentioned in the OP, some companies are not just 'ripping you off', they are willing to go so far as cheating regulations and contribute to global pollution, which kills hundreds of thousands of people every year. If that is not a serious misconduct of private entities, I don't know what is. Let me guess, not having the regulations that they cheated would have somehow led to a better outcome?
Way to completely avoid Majin's point.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

Germany puts backdoor in cars.
2 dats later, germany angry at US and Russia for tracking their government whereabouts.
This is going to be fun...
Oh, I am sure that Maizièr and the other politicians armored Mercedes will have no such tracking/controlling abilities installed. That is only for das volks. One of the surest ways to tell someone in power is full of crap, when it is do as I say not as I do.
 

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Someone let the interior minister know that backdoors to cars and digital devises are already there.

Don't leave the poor man hanging for goodness sake!

So the interior minister wants to be in the interior of your car, home and toilet? That man has a fitting title.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven.7 View Post

I mean, don't most modern cars have a government backdoor already? OnStar for example? All it takes is one call, and law enforcement can track or stop any GPS enabled vehicle.
OnStar is optional and specific to GM. Now SiriusXM is the one you should worry about. They pay big money to put their stuff in new cars and they can extract location data for law enforcement with a warrant.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

The government is supposed to represent the people whereas companies represent themselves, that's a crucial difference. As I mentioned in the OP, some companies are not just 'ripping you off', they are willing to go so far as cheating regulations and contribute to global pollution, which kills hundreds of thousands of people every year. If that is not a serious misconduct of private entities, I don't know what is. Let me guess, not having the regulations that they cheated would have somehow led to a better outcome?

This isn't an all or nothing discussion and people shouldn't have a one track mind a priori about the need or not need for regulations. Some are good, some are bad, like everything else in life. Critical thinking is where we go into the detail of each, its rationale and then evaluate it.

Counterproductive proposals that don't understand the core of the problem, such as the one in the news in the OP, are objectively that, regardless of whether the entity proposing it is public or private. The reach of said proposals can be big if deployed by a government, but harmful actions and / or lobbying by private, multinational conglomerates can be just as bad, it all depends on their size and influence.
But therein lies the problem. There is a disconnect between the theory and reality because the theory rests on the principle of people being good and pure. It is just much harder to hold gov accountable for their actions and they have too much authority over the rest of us so their actions are too influential and often permanent, unlike the actions of business that are usually short lived and localized. Also companies usually are held responsible for their actions, while the people are held responsible for gov's actions.

This attempt at gaining control over devices and cars is an obvious attempt by some in gov to fix some of the consequences of an unpopular gov action. It won't fix them all. It's like the old lady who swallowed the fly.
 

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But this sort of thing is already a problem. Chrysler vehicles had a backdoor in them that just about anyone who know what they're doing can take complete control of the vehicle. They don't even have to be near it, they could take control of the vehicle from just about anywhere with a WiFi connection.

Chrysler have since fixed it, but making it mandatory for all cars to have the same thing is incredibly stupid.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrews2547 View Post

But this sort of thing is already a problem. Chrysler vehicles had a backdoor in them that just about anyone who know what they're doing can take complete control of the vehicle. They don't even have to be near it, they could take control of the vehicle from just about anywhere with a WiFi connection.

Chrysler have since fixed it, but making it mandatory for all cars to have the same thing is incredibly stupid.
Hey, at least the cars don't have to be always online to work
rolleyes.gif


yet
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrews2547 View Post

But this sort of thing is already a problem. Chrysler vehicles had a backdoor in them that just about anyone who know what they're doing can take complete control of the vehicle. They don't even have to be near it, they could take control of the vehicle from just about anywhere with a WiFi connection.

Chrysler have since fixed it, but making it mandatory for all cars to have the same thing is incredibly stupid.
Great Point. I was thinking the same that just about EVERY "remote" new features in cars today allow access whether we knew about it or not.

OT:

Same for PC's... There's a reason the network protocol has 65K ports which can be played like a piano and allow access lol...NSA
;)
*cough. Again whether we know about it or not.
 

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Performance is the bible
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrews2547 View Post

But this sort of thing is already a problem. Chrysler vehicles had a backdoor in them that just about anyone who know what they're doing can take complete control of the vehicle. They don't even have to be near it, they could take control of the vehicle from just about anywhere with a WiFi connection.

Chrysler have since fixed it, but making it mandatory for all cars to have the same thing is incredibly stupid.
They fixed it but I think some firm claimed it is still there just encrypted. And you don't know how many other manufacturers have something similar as well.
This is also going to be fun for political or criminal assassinations. You don't like someone, pay a hacker to get his car to crush into a semi. Problem solved, no traces. No need to even be in the same country.

This is going to make a lot of noise once cars become wireless and remote accessible.
I mean, backdoor or nor, even the CIA tools where released. Who says the german ones won't?
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Quote:
Originally Posted by essanbee View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

See its stuff like this that I think is the real threat to the public, far more so than anything any corporation can do. With the power governments wield they can enact stuff like this by fiat and there is no recourse for the people. Companies may be able to rip you off (at the expense of their public relations) but governments can do the same and a lot more by using the almighty power of the law. At the end of the day, the government is NOT your "friend", yet so many people nowadays want MORE government involved in every aspect of their lives...
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

The government is supposed to represent the people whereas companies represent themselves, that's a crucial difference. As I mentioned in the OP, some companies are not just 'ripping you off', they are willing to go so far as cheating regulations and contribute to global pollution, which kills hundreds of thousands of people every year. If that is not a serious misconduct of private entities, I don't know what is. Let me guess, not having the regulations that they cheated would have somehow led to a better outcome?

Way to completely avoid Majin's point.
The government is an emanation of the people and is supposed to represent them. If you don't agree, in a democracy you can vote for another party that doesn't have the same line of thinking; you can form a new party; you can challenge the law in court and you can also protest on the street. Saying that there is no recourse is not accurate.

But let's go full cynical on this, shall we? In countries that are democracies, the big companies are all over politicians, with their lobbying power (read: money); in countries that are not democracies, the big companies have the state all over them, so it's basically the same thing at the end of the day. Criticize them both because they will both affect your life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rluker5 View Post

But therein lies the problem. There is a disconnect between the theory and reality because the theory rests on the principle of people being good and pure. It is just much harder to hold gov accountable for their actions and they have too much authority over the rest of us so their actions are too influential and often permanent, unlike the actions of business that are usually short lived and localized. Also companies usually are held responsible for their actions, while the people are held responsible for gov's actions.

This attempt at gaining control over devices and cars is an obvious attempt by some in gov to fix some of the consequences of an unpopular gov action. It won't fix them all. It's like the old lady who swallowed the fly.
It depends on the governing system as I said and it also depends on the company you're talking about. Multinational conglomerates that have millions of dollars to spend on lobbying, that hop from country to country to pay less taxes as they wish and that get treated preferentially every step of the way are sometimes even a bigger problem than local governments. They should both be criticized and countered wherever it matters.

And then don't forget that many of these companies have been around for decades and have a worldwide influence. The ones that matter have. You can chose to take solace when a medium / small company that did something bad goes down, but that doesn't solve the large problems. Examples of multi billion dollar companies with a worldwide influence that have been around for decades: the one I was alluding to in the OP, Volkswagen, is an 80 (eighty!) year old company. Intel is 49 years old; AMD is 48 years old; Nvidia is 24 years old; Samsung is 79 years old; Apple is 41 years old; Microsoft is 42 years old; Electronic Arts is 35 years old; Amazon is 23 years old; Valve is 21 years old; even the relatively young companies are getting old: Google is 19 years old and the new one on the block, Facebook, is already 13 years old.

Making generalizing comments about the government not being people's friend leads to nothing. There is a myriad of regulations whose reason for existing is historically backed by bad decisions by companies and people in general. And then there are dreadfully made ones based on ignorance or bad faith with bad or even catastrophic consequences. What we should discuss is proposals and actions, one by one.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalUnicorn View Post

If a backdoor is created, a backdoor can be discovered.
Quoted for truth.

Allow me to don my tinfoil hat, and just assume that this is already a service provided by intel to the NSA/CIA/FBI.
 
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