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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
🙋‍♂️

Hi there! I'm new to this forum and I'm a begginer OC enthusiast.
🔥
🔥
🔥

I recently built my new PC and today I swapped very good RAM sticks to even better ones, but could not run them at full rated speed in coupled mode (Infinity Fabric 2000MHz):

G.SKILL F4-3600C14D-32GTZN -> 3600MHz CL14-15-15-35 1.45V
https://www.gskill.com/.../F4-3600C14D-32GTZN-Specification
G.SKILL F4-4000C14D-32GTZN -> 4000MHz CL14-15-15-35 1.55V
https://www.gskill.com/.../F4-4000C14D-32GTZN-Specification

🤷‍♂️

My problem is:
I cannot run stable and without WHEA error my new RAM at full speed (4000MHz CL14) when in coupled mode (Infinity Fabric set to 2000MHz).

After first run, XMP on, all auto, it set itself to 4000MHz CL14, but Infinity Fabric only to 1800MHz, which have worked flawlessly with my old RAM sticks (which were 3600MHz CL14), but wasn't coupled with my new sticks.
I tried all speeds coupled and came to 3733MHz - 5 minute OCCT burn, no WHEA errors.
3800MHz - 5 minute OCCT burn, also no error, but... 2T rate, strange CL rating (CL15), very strange subtimings. I also read somewhere that 1900MHz/3800MHz became problematic on F33 BIOS. I also read somewhere that Ryzen CPUs don't like even speeds (like 3800, 4000 etc.), they prefer odd speeds (3733, 3866 etc.).
Maybe I should change some voltages?
There is a CPU memory controller voltage? Increase, how much?
Maybe trying to lower RAM voltage (I read somewhere that it helped in other case someone)?
Maybe can you link me some good stuff to read about OCing RAM?

💻

My setup is:
CPU: Ryzen 5950X @ stock

CPU cooler: Kraken X73 @ top exhaust, Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut Extreme paste
GPU: RTX 3090 TUF OC @ MSI Afterburner auto OC custom curve, 1920MHz core max, +200MHz memory, +7% power limit, V3 BIOS
RAM: 2x16GB 3733MHz CL14-15-13-29 @ 1,44V (G.SKILL F4-4000C14D-32GTZN)
Mobo: X570 Aorus Master v1.2 @ F34 BIOS

SDD (main): WD SN850 2TB PCIe 4.0
SSD (storage): RAID 0 -> 2x XPG SX8200 Pro 2TB, SM2262ENG controller, PCIe 3.0
PSU: BeQuiet Dark Power Pro 12 1200W
Other: Sound Blaster AE-9
Case: Phanteks P500A with 3 front intake, 1 rear exhaust 140mm fans
OS: Windows 10 Pro 64-bit

⚡️

My OC experience is:
-Core 2 Duo E4300 1.86GHz @ 3.0GHz
-Phenom II X4 945 3.0GHz @ 3.3-3.5GHz
-i5 4690K 3,5GHz @ 4,3GHz
-other is not worth saying, but I know a bit about GPU OC and RAM OC, but only basic stuff, never were much into it.
🦸‍♂️


Regards!
 

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Robotic Chemist
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I cannot get my 5950X to post with 1900 fclk, let alone 2000 MHz. This is independent of memory speed. I tried everything, and two different motherboards, but I cannot even post above 1866 MHz fclk.

My assumption is that your CPU simply cannot do 2000 MHz fclk. Maybe others can offer voltage suggestions, but do not assume there must be settings that would work.
 

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Cheesebumps!!
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the memory OC capability heavily lies on the IMC quality of your chip..I have had 3 5900X's before I won the lottery..from what you are using and what you want it to run its only within a small margin of performance gain you are seeing for normal usage..a 1-2 or yet only 1 fps gains isn't really that far great when you translate that to gaming...
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
the memory OC capability heavily lies on the IMC quality of your chip..I have had 3 5900X's before I won the lottery..from what you are using and what you want it to run its only within a small margin of performance gain you are seeing for normal usage..a 1-2 or yet only 1 fps gains isn't really that far great when you translate that to gaming...
I know, but I have built this system to last about 5 years probably, so I want every FPS I can get :)

You said that you had won a the lottery, can you say what frequency and timings are your RAM and your FCLK (is it 1:1:1)?
 

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Cheesebumps!!
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You said that you had won a the lottery, can you say what frequency and timings are your RAM and your FCLK (is it 1:1:1)?
I run mine with daily on safe voltages with 3800 cl16 with a crappy CJR kit, and its 1:1:1 no whea errors, I can go up to 4000mhz but the voltages aren't safe already for long term use but I don't get WHEA errors doing so. My previous chips can only do 3600 and 3733mhz max, beyond that no matter what voltages I put its just throwing more WHEA errors.

I may need to buy capable RAMs but not willing to spend 1000$ for a new kit..pretty pointless since I just game on it..
 

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My 5800x posts at 2100 fclk

I only run it at 1900. Main reason being performance gains above 3800 require more voltage, higher temps, and just don't have any worthwhile gain.

That being said, what is your vcore set at? I'd personally expect to run 1.25V on vcore at 2000fclk
 

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I run mine with daily on safe voltages with 3800 cl16 with a crappy CJR kit, and its 1:1:1 no whea errors, I can go up to 4000mhz but the voltages aren't safe already for long term use but I don't get WHEA errors doing so. My previous chips can only do 3600 and 3733mhz max, beyond that no matter what voltages I put its just throwing more WHEA errors.

I may need to buy capable RAMs but not willing to spend 1000$ for a new kit..pretty pointless since I just game on it..
Same here, 3733Mhz is where it caps out, no matter what. It's pretty much lightning fast so I don't care ;)

Edit: This is with 64G ram and 4 dimms(not bought as one set but two sets instead), so I cannot say I'm disappointed :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
Thanks for your response. I made some testing so here are my thoughts and results.

Everything tested with stock/auto CPU settings. Room temperature hot ~30'C, under the desk for sure more. Memory was hitting ~58'C and no WHEA errors at below settings. All tests with default XMP voltage of 1,55V. 5 minutes of OCCT RAM default test.

1) I can run without WHEA 4000MHz CL14-15-15-35 1,55V (XMP def), but with max IF: 1867MHz
2) IF:1867MHz seems like a limit for my Ryzen 5950X's IMC
3) For the time being I run 1:1:1 3733MHz CL14-15-15-29. Lowering to CL14-14-14-35 at 3733MHz got WHEAs.
4) Can I use Ryzen Master to change memory setting for testing easly (like CPU setting), without entering the BIOS?
5) Do you know any good for RAM testing games (at UW4K/1600p 24:10)?
6) Is there a way to increase IMC memory handling by voltage? Is it safe? What levels of voltage could help and be safe?
7) What voltages are important in RAM overclocking for RAM and for CPU?
8) Do you think B or D result is better?
9) Strange thing is with 2nd-ry and 3rd-ry latencies in BIOS (last screens) - they show that should be lower, but on auto they are much higher in ZenTimings. Could you explain me this? Should I lower them to BIOS "proposition" manually?
10) For now I opt either for archieving higher frequency than 3733MHz with 1:1:1 ratio and CL14-15-15-35 or tightening latencies with 1:1:1 ratio on 3733MHz. After this, lowering RAM voltage a bit if possible.

Here are some AIDA memory results:

A) 3733MHz CL14-15-15-35 (XMP def, only lowered to 3733MHz); IF: 3733MHz, 1:1:1
2514706

2514707

B) 3733MHz CL14-15-15-29 (XMP def, only lowered to 3733MHz); IF: 3733MHz, 1:1:1
2514708

2514709

C) 4000MHz CL14-15-15-35 (XMP def); IF auto: 3600MHz
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D) 4000MHz CL14-15-15-35 (XMP def); IF manual: 3733MHz
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Here is some info about voltages, temps, etc., tested with 1h of COD:Warzone and 1h of Cyberpunk 2077 1.23 on B) setting (3733MHz CL14-15-15-29, IF: 1:1:1):
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Here are timings presented in BIOS when on auto (but then in ZenTimings they are much higher):
2514719

2514720
 

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Old and Decrepit
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One of the pitfalls of Ryzen. They have their upsides but the downside is the memory controller is weak making it hard to get a decent clock and some kits won’t work at all and the CPUs don’t OC worth a crap. No problem at all running a Corsair dominator platinum RGB 3600 CL 18 at 3800 CL15 on an Intel 10980XE. I’ll be sticking with it for the foreseeable me future. Had to wait a year for the HEDT chips prices to drop to MSRP and under. They were like unicorns for awhile and what was to be had was the Fleabay scalpers in action. Finally caught a break on accident reading somewhere else that Microcenter had them for $820 less a $200 credit I had. Jumped on it. About like the crap that’s going on now thats is waning as China has now banned crypto mining which is where 80% of the chips and silicon were going. Prices dropping already in UK and should drop within a couple of months and become readily available in the US, probably Fleabay will be flooded with used cards coming out of China. DONT BUY them as they have been getting the crap banged out of them. I wish the UN would get together and remove China from forcing its policies and international trade policies on Taiwan. They claim it as their but they have their own democraticallly elected government. Gonna be a hard push to avoid starting and escalated crisis but if the rest of the planet comes together and says enough is enough they will back off.
 

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I'm at work, so difficult to address everything right now. Also, I'm pretty new to all this, so take what I say with a grain of salt. You got the importaint bit, though, which is getting it running, period. Regardless of how fast.

First I'd recommend is tuning at 3733. Start benchmarking various ram voltages (vdimm) see if performance goes up with lower voltage.

From there, tighten your tfrc. You should be able to run those settings you see in the bios for them, probably a bit tighter, too.

I'd also adjust tfaw down to 24 (a lot of people can run 16, but I cannot) trrds to 6, and trrdl to 8

But do each individually so you know if you need to revert.

As for flck, you might try a higher vcore soc voltage (up to 1.25?) and see if you can run 1900 stable. My 5800x likes 1.166 with my 4x8gb viper steel kit at cl14 3800 while it likes 1.14 with my hynix 4x8gb cl16 3800 kit
1966fclk cl16 takes 1.25v vsoc to be stable for me
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Insidious Supra

Thank you.

Can performance go up with lower voltage (I always thought it was only to stabilize higher clocking)?

trrds to 6 - but I have 4 - is higher better?

Is 1.25v VSOC safe for daily use for next years (I plan to have this PC for about 5 years)?
 

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Performance can improve with lower voltage. Each frequency will have it's sweet spot. It would seem to me that 1.55v is excessive for the speed you're operating at? But can't say without testing.

tfaw should be 4x trrds. for me it's 6 and 26, so maybe see if you can get awaywith 4 and 16, but if not, 6 and 24

1.25 vsoc is borderline what most people consider "safe" I don't feel great running anything higher, and prefer to run less, but if you are determined to run 2000fclk, you may have to
 
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Robotic Chemist
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Is that extra 66 MHz in fclk really worth it? You are getting good memory bandwidth, but at the cost of a lot of latency. Is that actually better for your important game or other workload?
2514902
2514901
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Asmodian

I mostly play games.

Is 66MHz more if on same CLs and in 1:1:1 ratio - adding more latency?

I want to get most performance.
 

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Cheesebumps!!
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Lower your TRFC (ns times, by lowering your TRFC values, use a DRAM calculator within these forums to compute for the proper and appropriate values) but surely you will need to push more VSOC and Voltages on memory to achieve stability..

I'd say the best you can squeeze is 1ns shaved off your latency..I can't seem to equate that to how much performance in a game would give you since you already have a 5950x..like what justin said above, IPC for Ryzen is great just not the IMC..

Best to always run 1:1:1 ratio for almost everything on a Ryzen..3733 cl14 isn't really bad if thats really rock solid stable..beyond 3800mhz won't really do much in terms of additional performance..
 

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Robotic Chemist
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Is 66MHz more if on same CLs and in 1:1:1 ratio - adding more latency?

I want to get most performance.
Try using 14-13-14-13-28-44 for tCL-tRC and 298 for tRFC at 3733 MHz.
2514968

Use tRRDS = 4 and tFAW=16 if tRRDS = 3 isn't allowed or doesn't work. tFAW should be 4x tRRDS.

To get an idea of where to start when messing with good bin B-die timings on Ryzen 3000 and 5000 I included some other DRAM Calculator recommendations for my G.SKILL F4-3600C14-32GVKA (I believe F4-3600C14D-32GTZNA would be the same).

3800 MHz:
32GB 3600C14D-3800 Fast.png
3666 MHz:
32GB 3600C14D-3666 Fast.png
3600 Fast:
32GB 3600C14D-3600 Fast.png
3600 Safe:
32GB 3600C14D-3600 Safe.png

There is a lot more to memory timings than CL. For example, tFRC is very important as kairi_zeroblade mentioned above. It is also much harder to run 1866/3733 at timings as low as at 1800/3600, at least with my IO die. For me, the lower voltage on the SOC alone lowers power/heat enough to be worth not trying to force >1800 fclk, and I could never get 14-14-14-14-28-1T GDM to work at 3733 MHz, but I do have an IO die that doesn't like >1800 MHz at all. :p

The real differences in games are going to be pretty small either way and you would need to benchmark the specific game and setting to be sure which was better. My experience with Timespy and Port Royal suggests lower timings are better, I think most games aren't bandwidth limited so they care more about latency than bandwidth. In that situation timings are more important than frequency, but a higher frequency at the same timings has a lower real time latency, so it is complicated. The faster the better if you do not need to relax the timings too much and can maintain 1:1:1.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 · (Edited)
🔥🔥🔥 I did some testing!

I changed my OCCT testing to 8 minutes. RAM temperature without case fans at "high CPU usage" was hitting ~60'C with this time and raising. My RAM, this and previous ones (3600MHz CL14 B-Die) were hitting ~58'C while gaming, no WHEAs or crashes. Idle temps ~45'C.

So...

For now, I will be testing WHEAs, stability and temperatures of this setup: 3733MHz 14-15-15-29, TRRDS 4, TFAW 16, TRRDL 8, TRC 312-192-132, TRP 44.
Every timing is at least same or lower than in BIOS proposed timings (which was only showing, on auto they were higher).

Tested now 8 minute OCCT, 1h of COD: Warzone (memory intense), 1h of Cyberpunk 1.23 (CPU multithread intense). No WHEAs noted, seems stable.
Memory temperature peaking ~58'C on hotter stick in Cod: Warzone and ~55'C in Cyberpunk. OCCT 8 minute burn ~60'C and raising. Idle temps ~45'C.
CPU was ~70'C in COD: Warzone and ~80'C in Cyberpunk due to it's very good multithread usage.
GPU around 72-74'C.
(CPU: 5950X @ stock; GPU: RTX 3090 TUF OC @ MSI Afterburner Auto OC custom curve, around 1920MHz in peaks, memory +200MHz).

AIDA tests are a bit of improvement comparing to 3733MHz 14-15-15-29, rest on Auto. Both still on 1.55V.

3733MHz, 14-15-15-29, rest all auto (left) vs 3733MHz, 14-15-15-29, rest optimised (right)
2515563

2515565

Now to some question and troubleshooting...

1) I can't run them even at 3600MHz while primary timing are CL14-14-14-34 or CL14-14-15-34. Rest all auto. IF 1800MHz.
Why it is strange? G.SKILL has cheaper dice (so I think, lower quality B-die?), still pricey as hell, but 1700PLN vs 2300-2400PLN. And it is rated 3600MHz CL14-14-14-34.
I'm putting Zen table and AIDA result for this, but OCCT brung up errors.
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2515567


2) Can't set/change SoC Voltage higher. I tried two options for same setting (Gigabyte duh?), they are in photos below. I can set them in BIOS, they are saved in BIOS and still there, but when I check it in Zen Timings - they are not changed at all. I tried it with IF set to 1800 and 1866 (1:1:1), but probably due to not changed SoC Voltage, they still didn't work. Also, I read somewhere on this forum (GIGABYTE Latest Beta BIOS - TweakTown Forums) that after F33 BIOS update (which I have, latest non-beta) he could not get IF at 1800MHz. It is somehow true, I can see that - when I put IF to 1866 - it boots without problem, just WHEA errors in OCCT. On same timings and voltages, when I set IF to 1800, it has problem booting, either in sets strange, bad timings (and T2) or resets BIOS and run RAM at 2133MHz, IF to lower value too.

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3) Are there some rules for:
-tRCDWR and tRCRRD - are they have to be the same?
-tRP - does it have to be the same as tCL or tRCDWR and tRCRRD; or maybe can be even lower than them?
-tRAS - should it be equal to tCL+tRCDWR/tRCDRD or can be lower?
-tRFC/tRFC2/tRFC4 - I set them to my Motherboard proposition, but they are different from DRAM Calculator proposition (photos below).
2515571

2515572

4) So what could you propose to me now, lowering voltage of RAM or thightening timings even more first?
I'm also waiting for your response regarging changing SoC (why I can't set it to 1.2V), then I would like to try also setting with higher IF.

5) I've learned to use spoilers :D Regards and have a nice day :)

Edit: Added stability and temperature tests, optimised 3733MHz CL14 seems stable.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 · (Edited)
Some tweaking and I am at "is it over or should I tweak more - need advise" -> Need some word from more experienced overclockers :)

1) FLCK / IF Fabric @ 1800MHz+ (for RAM 3800MHz+)
Tested on Ryzen 5950X (first batch, bought one the launch day) and X570 Aorus Master v1.2 @ F33 BIOS

Cannot be set to 1900MHz (BIOS/AGESA bug), RAM goes crazy
Can be set to 1933/1966/2000MHz, boots, but WHEAs in OCCT
Tried SoC @ 1,243V, XMP on, all timings to Auto to loosen them, did not help with 1900/1933/1966MHz, errors or WHEAs, didn't even tried 2000MHz
HWinfo wrongly detects set SoC Voltage, lowers reading about 0.020-0.030V, Ryzen Master sometimes shows 1.2V, sometimes 1.2-1.244V, BIOS PC Health also lowers readings.

Here are Ryzen Master and ZenTimings screens for NOT STABLE setting: XMP default, all timings auto, 3866MHz 14-15-15-35 with 1:1:1 (FCLK/IF=1933MHz) @ SoC 1.243V:

2516020

2516021

2) CURRENT STABILISED RAM SPEED AND TIMINGS
G.SKILL F4-4000C14D-32GTZN (2x16GB, dual rank, B-die)

XMP: 4000MHz CL14-15-15-35 1.55V

My profile: 3733MHz CL14-15-15-15-29, TRRDS 4, TFAW 16, TRRDL 8, TRC 44, TRFC/TRFC2/TRFC4 258-191-118, 1.44V, 1:1:1 ratio, other timings/settings on auto

Stabilised at 1.44V
30 minutes of OCCT burn
40 minutes of COD: Warzone
60 minutes of Cyberpunk 2077
Some Internet surfing in Chrome
No WHEAs

Here are AIDA64 result and ZenTimings table:
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Other voltages tested in AIDA64, lower the voltage = better the results (but marginally). Here are results:
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2) STABILITY
Refers to current speed/timings.

1.40V -> instant BSOD after trying to load Windows 10
1.42V -> BSOD after few seconds of OCCT burn when detected an error
1.43V -> 1 error in OCCT in the end of 30 minute OCCT burn, temps ~60-61'C, no crash/BSOD
1.44V -> seems stable, 30 minute OCCT burn, 40 minutes of COD: Warzone, 60 minutes of Cyberpunk 2077, no errors or WHEAs
1.45V -> probably stable, 8 minute OCCT burn, no errors or WHEAs, did not check more
1.50V -> probably stable, 8 minute OCCT burn, no errors or WHEAs, did not check more
1.55V -> stable, 8 minute OCCT burn + been using for ~2 weeks, no errors or WHEAs

3) TEMPERATURES
Refers to current speed/timings.
Refers to hotter memory stick if only one temperature is listed. The second is usually 1-3'C cooler.

1.43V (not stable)
8 minutes of OCCT -> 57,5'C
20 minutes of OCCT -> 61,3'C

1.44V (stable)
Idle temps -> ~44'C / ~43'C
8 minutes of OCCT -> 58,4'C*
20 minutes of OCCT -> 61,5'C, then stabilised and not rising (~61'C and ~60'C for each memory stick)
40 minutes of COD: Warzone (all ultra, DLLS Q, 3840x1600) -> 57'C / 55,5'C
60 minutes of Cyberpunk 2077 (v1.23, all psycho, DLLS Q, 3840x1600) -> 54,5'C / 53'C

* (tested not long after testing 1.43V, so memories and air in the case weren't as cool as while testing 1.43V)

---

4) SO WHAT NOW?

I would like to ask for your opinion on:
-if everything now is safe?
-if timings and other settings now are well set?
-if timings can be further improved?

I aim to hold on 3733MHz speed as the limit is my IMC.

Also, my questions as for timings rules stands:
-tRCDWR and tRCRRD - are they have to be the same?
-tRP - does it have to be the same as tCL or tRCDWR or tRCRRD; or maybe can be even lower than them?
-tRAS - should it be equal to tCL+tRCDWR/tRCDRD or can be lower?

When I assume my work on RAM tweaking for this BIOS/AGESA revision is done I will post summary results comparing:
-3733MHz tweaked
-3733MHz XMP all auto
-4000MHz XMP all auto
All of above with FCLK/IF=1866MHz which is the highest possible on my IMC.

Have a nice evening!
 

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Robotic Chemist
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I would like to ask for your opinion on:
-if everything now is safe?
-if timings and other settings now are well set?
Yes, those voltages look fine and your settings are reasonable. I might run 1.45V on the memory, given your results. 1.45V still feels very safe to me and if 1.43V had issues...

-if timings can be further improved?
I aim to hold on 3733MHz speed as the limit is my IMC.
Maybe? It is hard to be sure without testing lower and lower timings until it stops working. :D
Reference the DRAM Calculator for 3733MHz I posted above for values you might be able to lower. Of course, some timings might be able to go below what DRAM calculator recommends too.

-tRCDWR and tRCRRD - are they have to be the same?
-tRP - does it have to be the same as tCL or tRCDWR or tRCRRD; or maybe can be even lower than them?
-tRAS - should it be equal to tCL+tRCDWR/tRCDRD or can be lower?
Please don't think of these answers as particularly authoritative, they simply reflect my current understanding. :eek:

-tRCDWR and tRCRRD: No, they can be different, but you don't gain much performance by lowering tRCDWR in my experience.
-tRP: No, it can be its own value but the lowest stable value is often the same as tRCDRD.
-tRAS: Yes, there is supposed to be a rule here, but I don't know if it is tCL+tRCDWR or tCL+tRCDRD. In any case it often works when set to values a bit below that... so no one is quite sure about this one. 🤷‍♂️

Another rule (I may have already mentioned it): tFAW = 4 x tRRDS or higher. I am not sure about this, but I have been told it and DRAM Calculator seems to respect it.

It is not completely authoritative either, but this Gamer's Nexus article might be interesting to you.

Edit:
When I assume my work on RAM tweaking for this BIOS/AGESA revision is done I will post summary results comparing:
-3733MHz tweaked
-3733MHz XMP all auto
-4000MHz XMP all auto
All of above with FCLK/IF=1866MHz which is the highest possible on my IMC.
I would also be very interested in 1800 fclk / 3600 tweaked comparison. That extra bit on the fclk may hurt more than it helps. :(

VDIMM = 1.425V and VSOC = 1.025V :)
2516048
 
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