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Stock *ahem*
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Discussion Starter #1
So, I am a die-hard Windows 7 user.
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The original version of this post was motivated by these two things that were being discussed not long after the Ryzen launch:

  • Ryzen seems to actually have less issues with Windows 7 (maybe the scheduler is less aggressive?)
  • Microsoft may only release a patch for Windows 10
Since then it is clear that AMD's chipset drivers have been issued for Win7 as well as 10, but any scheduling patches have been for Windows 10 only.

It would be useful to have comparison benchmarks between Win7 and Win10, although I have yet to see any.

Motherboards known to have PS/2 ports and/or native working USB 2.0 ports on boot of Win7 install DVD:

  • ASRock Fatal1ty X370 Professional Gaming

EDIT as of 1 January 2018:

(List added above, thread title changed, boldface added below in a couple of places, text above modified to take into account that the thread has evolved since its early inception)

For anyone new to this thread, summary of what people have said:

  • INSTALLATION FROM OPTICAL MEDIA IS HIGHLY RECOMMENDED
  • Results seem to be motherboard-dependent, but in general a DVD that is known to be from Microsoft either through purchase or through Digital River's ISO release program when it was in operation will work fairly well if PS/2 ports are present (see below for more).
  • Use a PS/2 keyboard and mouse if at all possible during the install process for best results.
  • If you cannot use a PS/2 mouse, at least use a PS/2 keyboard and use "tab" copiously.
  • USB 2.0 ports are not yet verified to work natively in installing on Ryzen systems, at least on ASRock X370 Pro motherboards, for either USB media or in using a USB keyboard+mouse.
  • It is possible to slipstream in USB 3.x drivers into Windows 7 for systems that lack any PS/2 type ports (A brief overview for how to do so is given here).
  • The AMD Ryzen chipset drivers are required and should be installed immediately on first boot to the Windows 7 desktop for best results.
  • The "AMD Balanced" power scheme may or may not show meaningful benefits on Windows 7.
  • M.2 drives still have some 'teething issues' on Ryzen motherboards, so transfer speeds may be reduced compared to Intel systems. SATA SSDs connected via cable should not have this issue since the chipset drivers will install SATA support.
  • Microsoft has purposely broken Windows Update for the latest-generation Intel as well as Ryzen. There is a DLL patch available, and other workarounds exist as well.
 

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Since nobody knows anything, here's what i think. Microsoft is so desperate to push Win10 that won't move a finger. AMD has probably hands tied by MS on the same issue. It means, Win7 will probably work "as is" and we 're lucky they released motherboard drivers for Win7 (because i read that Win8.1 got no drivers). No reviewer dares mention that Win7 exists, much less do comparisons. I only read someone saying, that Stilt thought it runs better in WIn7 than in Win10. But, Win10 will probably get a patch. Which will leave Ryzen in Win7 with a performance penalty. Is there anything else crippled that we don't know of? Maybe. At this point i expect to hear more from some Ryzen user that will install Win7 than from the "professional" reviewers that seem to completely ignore the issue.
 

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Stock *ahem*
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Discussion Starter #4
Well, Ryzen is dribbling out into the consumer market now so I guess I'll just have to sit tight and wait for Win7 benches on Ryzen. If I had the money I would actually just build one myself to do the testing but I'm not that rich
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quantum Reality View Post

Well, Ryzen is dribbling out into the consumer market now so I guess I'll just have to sit tight and wait for Win7 benches on Ryzen. If I had the money I would actually just build one myself to do the testing but I'm not that rich
tongue.gif
I see you have a 4690K. So why haste? Enjoy the ride and wait for Zen2. If Zen1 runs the way it runs on Win7, i don't see why Zen2 won't. If it doesn't it only means you will be able to grab some Zen1 cheaper and with less buggy motherboards than today... Ryzen is very good, but by AMD's tradition, the 2nd generations are always much better. Worst of all, right now, the early adapters are being used as beta testers. It's total chaos. You see people on motherboards of the same brand, getting completely different temperature readings. Let alone that in my view, the worst problem is the RAM compatibility.

GSkill today announced that it will release new series of memories "for Ryzen". I mean, we are long way from having a "polished" platform here. For all we know, AMD may release a new stepping. This was common in Phenom chips and nobody wanted to have the early steppings after seeing the new ones. Ryzen is good, but it suffers youth problems. Since your CPU can keep you going, why rush to become a guinea pig too?
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I am planning to wait in any case for Ryzen R5 later this year, but I am a little concerned about Win7 support, especially if it's not forthcoming in the next few months.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quantum Reality View Post

I am planning to wait in any case for Ryzen R5 later this year, but I am a little concerned about Win7 support, especially if it's not forthcoming in the next few months.
Win7 will likely remain with a penalty, if Microsoft releases a patch for the scheduler. AMD said also, that they will release at some point, a driver to adress the performance issue about balanced power profile and core unparking. Will they include Win7 too? Unknown, but i am not optimistic. Right now, to eliminate the problem, you must use high perf profile. But this is something you can solve manually, by changing profile yourself. There are also antiviruses that have game mode that automatically activates high perf profile when you game (like Avast) and small applications that sit on systray and allow you with a click to change power profiles without going to control panel. So that's something you can deal with. What you can't solve yourself, is the possible scheduler patch. The only solution will be to disable SMT when you play games. I don't know what else there might be. My bigger concern is how the general performance is, aside these 2 issues and whether all extensions (like AVX2) work normally or not.
 

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Here's some good news. Ryzen 17% faster in Win7 than Win10 in draw calls, according to Stilt:

https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/ryzen-strictly-technical.2500572/page-5#

Maybe Win10's spyware keeps the CPU busy.
devil.gif


Oh boy... That's what i wanted to hear. No need to slipstream the USB drivers into the Win7 installation, if you use DVD to install.
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Also, always from Stilt:
Quote:
I've used Win 7 about 95% of the time on Ryzen.
Only the actual performance evaluation was done with Win 10, as it wasn't up to me.
biggrin.gif

The performance differences are minor, but very constant regardless (in favor of Win 7).
biggrin.gif
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Nice! And I wouldn't be surprised if Win10's extra "baggage" hurts more than people realize because I doubt MS would bother optimizing that code.
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I still can't get over that 17.8% better draw call performance just from switching OSes.
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The Stilt:
Quote:
I did some 3D testing and eventhou there is not nearly enough data to confirm it, I'd say the SMT regression is infact a Windows 10 related issue.
In 3D testing I did recently on Windows 10, the title which illustrated the biggest SMT regression was Total War: Warhammer.

All of these were recorded at 3.5GHz, 2133MHz MEMCLK with R9 Nano:

Windows 10 - 1080 Ultra DX11:

8C/16T - 49.39fps (Min), 72.36fps (Avg)
8C/8T - 57.16fps (Min), 72.46fps (Avg)

Windows 7 - 1080 Ultra DX11:

8C/16T - 62.33fps (Min), 78.18fps (Avg)
8C/8T - 62.00fps (Min), 73.22fps (Avg)

At the moment this is just pure speculation as there were variables, which could not be isolated.
Windows 10 figures were recorded using PresentMon (OCAT), however with Windows 7 it was necessary to use Fraps.

https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/ryzen-strictly-technical.2500572/page-8#post-38775716
This is the difference between a real OS and something centered on shops, apps, spyware and advertisements.
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Win7: The little OS that just wouldn't die!
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Discussion Starter #12

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quantum Reality View Post

It also seems like if you're willing to go back to optical media for installation, you can easily get Windows 7 on without much trouble. If you prefer using USB, this is how it was done:

https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/ryzen-strictly-technical.2500572/page-11#post-38776813
Good guide. One should probably be able to slipstream the drivers without command line using these:

http://www.softpedia.com/get/System/OS-Enhancements/Windows-7-Toolkit.shtml

http://www.softpedia.com/get/System/Boot-Manager-Disk/RT-Seven-Lite.shtml

I haven't tried, but on paper, they should allow to. I used to do custom installation CDs, adding drivers with Nlite in XP days all the time. Usually such programs need to see an inf file to load the driver and after that, they can slipstream it.

So, if one gets the driver that Stilt points to, i see it has inf files in there and most probably the 2 above programs will recognize the driver and integrate it. So if you don't like command lines and headaches, you can just download the USB driver from Stilt's link and try one of the 2 programs and do everything by pressing buttons in a GUI. I bet one of the 2, if not both, will work.
 

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I really wish this thread was up before this past weekend...I could have gotten ryzen cpu, mobo and ram this past weekend instead of the intel setup i just got...would have loved to have seen what the performance would be like ....oh well..time to save up for another one
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Quote:
Originally Posted by soth7676 View Post

I really wish this thread was up before this past weekend...I could have gotten ryzen cpu, mobo and ram this past weekend instead of the intel setup i just got...would have loved to have seen what the performance would be like ....oh well..time to save up for another one
There are still some lingering issues with SATA transfer rates, so early adoption might have not been the best choice in your case anyhow. Me, I'm seeing how it all shakes out before I get a Ryzen R5 later this year
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quantum Reality View Post

There are still some lingering issues with SATA transfer rates, so early adoption might have not been the best choice in your case anyhow. Me, I'm seeing how it all shakes out before I get a Ryzen R5 later this year
smile.gif
That's true, however this isn't Win7's only problem, it's in Win10 too. It's just that AMD's SATA drivers are immature yet. However, since Win7 gets AMD SATA drivers too, whatever fixes they will implement for Win10, will also pass to Win7. The general problem is that Ryzen + motherboards are still in beta testing phase. But, so far, i haven't seen anything that would make me overly worried about Win7.
 

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I am also a die-hard Win7 user and have my Ryzen 1700x + 64gb of RAM sitting here, waiting on the ASRock Fatal1ty X370 Pro Gaming board to arrive Thursday.

I'll run some benches once it's going, hopefully this weekend. My FX8350 is very long in the tooth...

I also plan to switch out SSDs to have a Win10 install for comparison.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Undervolter View Post

The Stilt:
Quote:
I did some 3D testing and eventhou there is not nearly enough data to confirm it, I'd say the SMT regression is infact a Windows 10 related issue.
In 3D testing I did recently on Windows 10, the title which illustrated the biggest SMT regression was Total War: Warhammer.

All of these were recorded at 3.5GHz, 2133MHz MEMCLK with R9 Nano:

Windows 10 - 1080 Ultra DX11:

8C/16T - 49.39fps (Min), 72.36fps (Avg)
8C/8T - 57.16fps (Min), 72.46fps (Avg)

Windows 7 - 1080 Ultra DX11:

8C/16T - 62.33fps (Min), 78.18fps (Avg)
8C/8T - 62.00fps (Min), 73.22fps (Avg)

At the moment this is just pure speculation as there were variables, which could not be isolated.
Windows 10 figures were recorded using PresentMon (OCAT), however with Windows 7 it was necessary to use Fraps.

https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/ryzen-strictly-technical.2500572/page-8#post-38775716
This is the difference between a real OS and something centered on shops, apps, spyware and advertisements.
biggrin.gif


Win7: The little OS that just wouldn't die!
thumb.gif
^ Quoted for epicness!
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