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Epic post, one of my fav responses was esp the " come part this in water cooling section if you want a discussion " @Poisoner it made me laugh.

Considering I have spent more on fans then most on their entire pc... won't even get into rads and pumps ( with the exception of itx builds ... maybe I will get into it( I only use 2 pumps in these ) I use 4 pumps per build. And the op is right on. With the exception of 2 pros ( really one) clcs - space vs big air. And use in servers which imo falls also into space

Either way I laugh at people who call clcs "water cooling"... they are not and it is an insult to all who do to wear that badge of honor
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mega Man View Post

Epic post, esp the " come part this in water cooling section if you want a discussion " it made me laugh.

Considering I have spent more on fans then most in their entire pc... won't even get into rads and pumps ( with the exception of itx builds ... maybe I will( I only use 2 pumps in these ) I use 4 pumps per build. And the op is right on. With the exception of 2 pros ( really one) clcs - space vs big air. And use in servers which imo falls also into space

Either way I laugh at people who call clcs "water cooling"... they are not and it is an insult to all who do to wear that badge of honor
I have always said two things -

First, CLCs are the polar opposite of custom loops. Loud with middling performance - exactly the opposite of why one uses liquid cooling.
Second, CLC threads should have their own section. They do not belong in the "Water Cooling" section. They need their own section.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chargeit View Post

Bought Define R5 case and Noctua D15.

Suffered from overheating GPU and CPU due to poor case airflow.

Tested out various fan setups and nothing helped.

Said screw it and removed the Nocuta D15, putting my H100i back in as a front intake.

GPU and CPU temps back to normal.

Moral of the story, ClC are more versatile and therefor work better with a larger range of setups. Air coolers are overrated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaFirnz View Post

After looking at THIS chart, I would assume the moral of the story is that it doesn't really matter what you use as the gains are minimal across most of the products. Unless you live somewhere that you seriously need the extra 2 degrees in cooling.

Maybe it's just me.
It doesn't, but do keep in mind Tweaktown's test standards say::
Quote:
All of our testing is done at 24C with a degree margin of error (23.5C to 24.5C is allowable) and the humidity is controlled between 40 - 50%, both in winter and summer testing.
I can find no statement as to where or how often the temperature is checked.

If it is monitored in real time same as CPU temp we have a +/-0.5c magin of air, but that is assuming the thermometer is actuate to 0.1c or better. If the room temp thermometer reads in 0.5c increments, the margin of air grows th +/-1.0c .. which is a 2c total margin of error. Add to this the air temp even a few feet from cooler intake could easily be 2-5c cooler make it impossible to know what the margin of air is, and without full disclosure of procedures we really don't know what the margin of air is. .
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by smithydan View Post

Not this debate again
rolleyes.gif
It will never end.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostrider85 View Post

and then i have to mess with it every month to keep it maintained? nevermind the initial hassle of building a custom loop.
my 980 ti 1500mhz tops out @ 52C, do i need better cooling? absolutely not.
my 6600k 4.6ghz tops out @ 67C, do i need better cooling? absolutely not.

so, why do i need to waste my time building a custom loop then? absolutely nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by smithydan View Post

Not this debate again
rolleyes.gif


I still think some valid points for both were missed but good information nevertheless.
Please, what valid points have been missed? I think a good many of us here are interested in good discussions .. as this thread is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultisym View Post

It will never end.
We need to waste our time on something,
tongue.gif
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by smithydan View Post

Not this debate again
rolleyes.gif


I still think some valid points for both were missed but good information nevertheless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultisym View Post

It will never end.
No, probably not.

Just a personal thing here - I have been accused many times of hating and/or hating on CLCs, but that really isn't the case. I think they have their place. What irks me about them is their users, who are in some kind of fantasy world. Don't tell me that your H100i GTX cools better and is quieter than an NH-D15/R1/TC14PE/etc, when test results clearly indicate that is not the case. Don't tell me that you replaced your 2500 rpm Corsair fans with 1500 rpm Noctuas and your temps dropped 20 degrees (yeah....lower cfm and static pressure always improve rad performance
rolleyes.gif
). Don't tell me your CLC cured cancer, resolved international tensions and made your CPU so cold that it shattered. THAT is my biggest problem with CLCs.

That said, I probably still own at least ten CLCs at the moment, and there is no way I would ever use one in my daily build - simply because of the noise......and the fact that I don't like my PC looking like it was built in 2012.
tongue.gif
 

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I'm not getting the pissing contest that has erupted in this thread.

There are scenarios where each of the noted cooling techniques have advantages over others. Air cooling, for example, can more or less function ok in very large temperature range (including subzero temps) and is very simple. None of the cooling techniques are 100% maintenance free or going to last one for eternity. Fans and fins need some de-dusting and removal of pet hairs regardless if they are on radiator or air cooling heat sink. When air cooler is undesirable for some reason (weight, size, looks, etc) CLC or custom loop can be used. CLC has advantage over custom loop if one has particularly tight size constraints (particularly in small from factor systems) or budget constraints (normally CLC is about 30 ..40% cheaper than comparable custom kit). Once one moves into multiple CLC cooled components territory then water cooling kit tends to be better option as one gets away with just kit + extra radiator + fittings and blocks for GPU's. Over buying a separate CLC kit for each GPU. Air cooling starts at much much lower budget than CLC or customs loops as well with awesome bang-for-buck designs like 212+, for example.

If a custom loop must it can run for 3+ years without much maintenance same as air cooler with similar degrading in performance as stuff builds up on fins, fans and in tubing.

One just has to pick what suits his/her needs the best, however these are defined by the user as that's pretty subjective thing.

As far as OP's original argument goes that air cooling is superior to CLC's - I'm disagreeing on that if its stated in that way but I do not see much point in making an argument out of it.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero4549 View Post

For the amount you spent on those 3 derpy CLCs, you could have built a custom loop that would look better, perform better, last longer, etc.

"Perfection" is probably the last thing I'd call those ugly tubes running haphazardly across your GPUs, or the woefully inefficient cooling and noise levels you are getting from that setup.

I'm not against CLCs, but I do understand that their practical application is much more niche than people seem to think. I've used CLCs in systems where small size, some flexibility in mounting, and lack of required maintenance were the most important factors, and under those conditions they do well. In just about any other scenario however, they are a very poor choice.
You forgot to mention the noise.....three Corsair CLCs in one build? Must sound like the cleaning crew just came in to vacuum when you put a load on it, not to mention three Asetek pumps buzzing away all the time. With a custom loop you would get better temps with essentially no noise.

Glad somebody else sees that tubing as messy. The multi-CLC thing looks like someone threw a squid in the case - they are "one size fits none".
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniflex View Post

I'm not getting the pissing contest that has erupted in this thread.

There are scenarios where each of the noted cooling techniques have advantages over others. Air cooling, for example, can more or less function ok in very large temperature range (including subzero temps) and is very simple. None of the cooling techniques are 100% maintenance free or going to last one for eternity. Fans and fins need some de-dusting and removal of pet hairs regardless if they are on radiator or air cooling heat sink. When air cooler is undesirable for some reason (weight, size, looks, etc) CLC or custom loop can be used. CLC has advantage over custom loop if one has particularly tight size constraints (particularly in small from factor systems) or budget constraints (normally CLC is about 30 ..40% cheaper than comparable custom kit). Once one moves into multiple CLC cooled components territory then water cooling kit tends to be better option as one gets away with just kit + extra radiator + fittings and blocks for GPU's. Over buying a separate CLC kit for each GPU. Air cooling starts at much much lower budget than CLC or customs loops as well with awesome bang-for-buck designs like 212+, for example.

If a custom loop must it can run for 3+ years without much maintenance same as air cooler with similar degrading in performance as stuff builds up on fins, fans and in tubing.

One just has to pick what suits his/her needs the best, however these are defined by the user as that's pretty subjective thing.

As far as OP's original argument goes that air cooling is superior to CLC's - I'm disagreeing on that if its stated in that way but I do not see much point in making an argument out of it.
I agree with most of your post.

What I do not agree with is:
Most all builds can be done using air as long as all components are comparable. In other word, CLC is rarely if ever a necessity.
When Asetek first came out with the 'CLC' they called it LCLC for 'Low Cost Liquid Cooling' And that is the reason not to use them. Because they are so cheaply built the are definitely noisy .. and nowhere near as dependable as air cooling.
Quite honestly CLCs are odd balls that are not accepted by either air cooing or custom loop fraternities or people who have used and studied cooler and cooing in general .. and for good reason.
Most builders spend $200+ on a CPU, $100+, $400+ on GPU, $100+ on case, etc. Why cheap out on cooling by using a CLC? Simple answer is media and advertising hype with little or no truth. Many of the first CLC buyers saw 'water' and equated ti with 'custom water loop'. A complete CLC 280 system without fans weights about the same as just a component radiator. That is including all the 'water' in the CLC.

I've noticed the resurgence of 'born again air-head' coming back to air coolers for the very reasons CrazyElf stated in his opening post.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ciarlatano View Post

You forgot to mention the noise.....three Corsair CLCs in one build? Must sound like the cleaning crew just came in to vacuum when you put a load on it, not to mention three Asetek pumps buzzing away all the time. With a custom loop you would get better temps with essentially no noise.

Glad somebody else sees that tubing as messy. The multi-CLC thing looks like someone threw a squid in the case - they are "one size fits none".
Last time I was visiting my son SoCal I was setting on the deck one morning drinking coffee when I started hearing a pack of 2-cycle engines buzzing along. Some oscillating while others buzz allong steadily and boht getting progressively louder as the minutes ticketed by. Turned out to be a landscaping crew that had contracts with about 50% of the houses for blocks around coming through the neighborhood on their weekily mowing trip.

When they got in son's block they were maybe not quite as loud as 3x CLCs in one case.
biggrin.gif
 

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Custom watercooling is best but too time consuming.
aio these just leak eventually, the swiftech and ek predator all have problems, best to go with custom.
clc, currently I have h100igtx, I wanted to try clc for the first time, it is fast setup and self contained unit, however first purchase was doa, pump was kaput, will probably return to scythe air cooler like mugen 5 or something scythe related.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero4549 View Post

You need to "mess" with much less often then you need to mess with a CLC.
strictly speaking you only need to mess with a properly built loop when it evaporates enough liquid to empty its reservoir, which with a large reservoir could be several years. Meanwhile, you CLC also evaporates liquid, and runs dry much quicker because it does not have a res at all! Making things worse, your CLC runs with mixed metals, which given a few years, will corrode to the point of either leaking or performing so badly that you won't want the darned thing any more. CLCs are literally just small, poorly built loops that can't be opened. They aren't somehow immune to the problems of custom built loops, and unlike custom built loops, you can't take any steps to correct their issues.
Problem is you can't mess with the CLC, so when its time comes, you just have to toss the whole thing instead of spending 30 seconds refilling it. Many liquid cooling enthusiasts like to mess with their loops more frequently, but they in no way actually require more frequent maintenance than CLCs.

The hassle of building a custom loop? Laughable at best. If you can build a custom computer, you can just as easily build a custom loop. If you didn't build your own computer, then why do you care how much effort it took some other guy to build the loop? Besides, these days you can get AIO kits using all proper parts, that are customizable but don't actually require any assembly if you just want to use it as is.

Do you need better cooling? Of course not, but why would you choose to pay more for inferior cooling? Why would you pay more for a louder system? Why pay more for ugliness? Why pay more for something that won't last nearly as long? Nonsense.

Why should you build/buy a proper loop? Because you're already shelling out enough money for the superior product, so you might as well get that superior product. Otherwise you might as well just mail me that system of yours and I'll send you a nice raspberry Pi instead. It would be more than you need, and you don't care about throwing away money anyway, right?
thanks for chewing my rear off, i just purchased two swiftech 980 ti waterblocks and swiftech h240x2, build log coming soon.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostrider85 View Post

thanks for chewing my rear off, i just purchased two swiftech 980 ti waterblocks and swiftech h240x2, build log coming soon.
helpinghand.gif

I think you will be very happy with the H240 X2. I haven't had a chance to try one, but those who have talk highly of them. And some of the people I've talked with test a lot of equipment and run very elaborate custom loops.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by redshoulder View Post

Custom watercooling is best but too time consuming.
aio these just leak eventually, the swiftech and ek predator all have problems, best to go with custom.
clc, currently I have h100igtx, I wanted to try clc for the first time, it is fast setup and self contained unit, however first purchase was doa, pump was kaput, will probably return to scythe air cooler like mugen 5 or something scythe related.
last i heard swiftechs rma rate was 3% you make it see like they have alot of issues, i am sure eks is the same or near so.

you hear alot of bad esp on cn because they are directed to post there, however myh220 ( near first release ) is still going strong in my wifes pc, no maint no issues, no rmas , people like me dont normmally post - no news
 

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Of the 10 owners of Swiftech coolers 2 had problems. 1 was damaged in shipping. The other was one from a batch that had dirty radiators and the debris sometimes got into the pump and made noise. As far as I know they are all still going strong.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mega Man View Post

last i heard swiftechs rma rate was 3% you make it see like they have alot of issues, i am sure eks is the same or near so.

you hear alot of bad esp on cn because they are directed to post there, however myh220 ( near first release ) is still going strong in my wifes pc, no maint no issues, no rmas , people like me dont normmally post - no news
It's incredibly peculiar. Even before the H220 issues, people said this regardless of the fact that initial pieces had almost a zero RMA rate. Then the H220 issue seemed to have driven it into others' minds further, regardless of the excellent show by the X serires. Then you have the other issue - bad reviews from non-verified purchasers. There were actually bad reviews of the X2 on a couple of shopping sites prior to it ever being shipped.

Now, EK can spring leaks, and that's ok. Corsair can have leak and multitudes of pump issues, and that is fine in Joe Public's eye. Swiftech has an issue with a pump that they made good on? Travesty....
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ciarlatano View Post

You forgot to mention the noise.....three Corsair CLCs in one build? Must sound like the cleaning crew just came in to vacuum when you put a load on it, not to mention three Asetek pumps buzzing away all the time. With a custom loop you would get better temps with essentially no noise.

Ok gotta admit that made me laugh
tongue.gif
I dont have hardly any noise with my Enermax CLC thankfully but I've heard some loud pumps in my time and if its true you wouldnt be able to stop me laughing to death xD

Glad somebody else sees that tubing as messy. The multi-CLC thing looks like someone threw a squid in the case - they are "one size fits none".
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostrider85 View Post

thanks for chewing my rear off, i just purchased two swiftech 980 ti waterblocks and swiftech h240x2, build log coming soon.
Haha dont worry bout that too much
tongue.gif
the quality on those parts are good and give you a great place to start with watercooling. I'm still interested to see how it performs under heavy load and if you join in for folding on those ti's you'd have a powerhouse
biggrin.gif
you have the capability to expand much more than any CLC and the options down the road are limitless!
 

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Discussion Starter #59
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaFirnz View Post

After looking at THIS chart, I would assume the moral of the story is that it doesn't really matter what you use as the gains are minimal across most of the products. Unless you live somewhere that you seriously need the extra 2 degrees in cooling.

Maybe it's just me.
Actually it makes a huge difference. You didn't look at the other chart the sound pressure levels - note that some coolers are 20-30 db louder to get the same cooling performance. The important thing is not absolute performance, but performance to noise ratio.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ciarlatano View Post

I have always said two things -

First, CLCs are the polar opposite of custom loops. Loud with middling performance - exactly the opposite of why one uses liquid cooling.
Second, CLC threads should have their own section. They do not belong in the "Water Cooling" section. They need their own section.
This. I mean with custom loops, you get:
  • Quiet radiators with low fin density
  • Generalists that do well at all fans (EK's Coolstream XE is an example)
  • Loud, but unmatched performance with high performance fans (products like the HWLabs Black Ice GTX Gen 2 are made for this)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mega Man View Post

Epic post, one of my fav responses was esp the " come part this in water cooling section if you want a discussion " @Poisoner it made me laugh.

Considering I have spent more on fans then most on their entire pc... won't even get into rads and pumps ( with the exception of itx builds ... maybe I will get into it( I only use 2 pumps in these ) I use 4 pumps per build. And the op is right on. With the exception of 2 pros ( really one) clcs - space vs big air. And use in servers which imo falls also into space

Either way I laugh at people who call clcs "water cooling"... they are not and it is an insult to all who do to wear that badge of honor
As far as fans go these days, I always recommend to people Gentle Typhoons. Other industrial fans like the Delta AFB series, the San Ace fans, and other Nidecs are pretty well made. Some people like the EK Vardar series as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostrider85 View Post

why you should not buy a big bulky heatsink:

1. it will obstruct everything and will cut your fingers.

2. it prevents you from accessing your ram slots.

3. it will cover your fancy motherboard leds.

4. it may damage your motherboard due to it's weight.

5. you have to remove it when transporting.

6. can't pull fresh air directly from outside, can't exhaust hot air directly to outside.

7. ugly

8. it might come in contact with the gpu pcb and short it, as seen on this pic

why you should buy clc:

PERFECTION!
20160204_161608-1.jpg
  1. Installation risks are with anything. If you use a CLC, you might bend the fins on the radiator by mistake for example. I've done so on water coolers (copper is very soft and easy to bend). You can hurt yourself with anything really. ON a custom loop, I've hurt my fingers before tightening compression fittings (use work gloves for that, btw). Many coolers, like the Cryorig R1 Ultimate are actually quite easy to install.
  2. Not true, as there are cutouts for the D15 and other heatsinks. You may have to remove the front fan, but you can still access them. That isn't hard to do.
  3. I suppose this one has some merit - blocks LEDs. That assumes though that you have decorative LEDs.
  4. Actually, anecdotally, how many stories do you hear about air coolers damaging motherboards? I hear far more about CLCs leaking.
  5. I would recommend removing a CLC while transporting as well. The risk of leaks is higher than I'd like. I have heard others recommend for many custom loops that ideally, one should drain them before sending as well. Either way, you probably safe if you transport the air cooler facing down.
  6. You can, with good case air flow. The CPU cooler will intake fresh air, go through the tower and exhaust out of the case exhaust. Actually CLCs have one drawback here, if you set your top 240 radiator to intake, although you are going to make your GPU warmer because you will exhaust warm air onto the GPU and motherboard. You are making your CPU cooler by a couple of degrees at the expense of your GPU.
  7. Looks are subjective, but I personally find AIOs with their fixed tubing to be visually unattractive.
  8. As far as shorting goes, I've indicated that there are now coolers that address that. Also, most GPUs these days come with backplates. Finally, if it is not touching, it will not short a GPU. By contrast, the risk of a CLC leaking and causing a short is far higher. Also note that with time, the water inside the loop will be far more conductive. Custom loop owners are advised to change their loop water every year, for good reason (it also keeps the corrosion at bay). That is not something that AIOs have.
I don't find that AIO to be good looking - while a well built custom loop is very appealing to me, a lot of AIOs kind of screams to me, custom loop wanna be. As one other person has noted, for the money spent on those AIOs, you could bought a water cooling kit, a pair of universal GPU water blocks, and ended up with considerably better performance. That and the water cooling parts will last a lot longer.
 
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