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When HPET (High Precision Event Timer) was enabled in BIOS, Windows 8.1 would automatically use it and install system device driver for it. Now I advice to disable HPET because even if you have it enabled in BIOS, Windows 10 won't use it by default, but it will install the system device driver for it. That is GOOD news because Windows 10 finally switched to some other (new?) method of handling latencies and it works much better than HPET!

How do I know? I compared my driver and process latencies between Windows 8.1 and Windows 10 using LatencyMon! The difference is HUGE! Aside from crappy Atheros Qualcom Wi-Fi drivers, my latencies hover between 8-16, at times as high as 20 when Wi-Fi is not in use. In Windows 8.1, my latencies hovered around 30-80ms!
 

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"Thank you MonarchX", "Its good to know, fellow member", "I'll try it out, dude!", "Another reason to upgrade to Windows 10!"

- You're welcome guys!
 

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Yes, it lowers chances of any kind of sound & video de-synchronization, lowers frame time (which is good) in games somewhat, improves, overall system responsiveness, reduced CPU overhead. Overall, it means better optimization and driver-OS integration.
 

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HPET issues are often isolated, not global. Only a minority of systems have HPET enabled associated latency. Windows 7 (and higher) only utilizes HPET for specific applications designed for that timer (when such applications are running). During normal use, Windows will not use HPET, regardless of it's BIOS setting. For many motherboards, disabling HPET does nothing at all. That's why most X99 motherboards don't come with a HPET setting. The OS and the application determine if and when HPET is active.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Quote:
Originally Posted by BradleyW View Post

HPET issues are often isolated, not global. Only a minority of systems have HPET enabled associated latency. Windows 7 (and higher) only utilizes HPET for specific applications designed for that timer (when such applications are running). During normal use, Windows will not use HPET, regardless of it's BIOS setting. For many motherboards, disabling HPET does nothing at all. That's why most X99 motherboards don't come with a HPET setting. The OS and the application determine if and when HPET is active.
Well, I figured it was relevant because when HPET is enabled in BIOS, Windows 7 and Windows 8.1 enable it in themselves during clean install. Windows 10, however, does not enable it even when HPET is turned on in BIOS. Then I noticed latencies are much lower in Windows 10 than in Windows 8.1., using the same exact drivers. I thought that could be due to Windows 10 NOT using HPET. Since HPET is not used and latencies are so much better, it probably makes sense to disable HPET completely in BIOS, but makes way more sense not to also force it in Windows 10 itself because it is possible to do so with the same platform clock command as in Windows 7/8.1.

AFAIK, Windows 8.1 and now Windows 10 use CPU's TSC instead of HPET, which is a more modern and optimized method of controlling timings.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonarchX View Post

Well, I figured it was relevant because when HPET is enabled in BIOS, Windows 7 and Windows 8.1 enable it in themselves during clean install. Windows 10, however, does not enable it even when HPET is turned on in BIOS. Then I noticed latencies are much lower in Windows 10 than in Windows 8.1., using the same exact drivers. I thought that could be due to Windows 10 NOT using HPET. Since HPET is not used and latencies are so much better, it probably makes sense to disable HPET completely in BIOS, but makes way more sense not to also force it in Windows 10 itself because it is possible to do so with the same platform clock command as in Windows 7/8.1.

AFAIK, Windows 8.1 and now Windows 10 use CPU's TSC instead of HPET, which is a more modern and optimized method of controlling timings.
Yes, the OS uses TSC on most modern systems, but it WILL enable HPET if a specific program is written to use it, regardless of the HPET BIOS setting. That's why most X99 boards got rid of the HPET settings option.

As for the "software driver", eventually the OS WILL install the HPET driver when a piece of software activates the timer. (Again, regardless of your BIOS setting).

Not everyone will see higher latency when HPET in enabled in the BIOS initially. It's system hardware and software configuration dependant.

Also, the OP seems to contradict itself in various ways.

Point
Quote:
Windows 10 - disable HPET before install and enjoy low latencies
Contradiction
Quote:
advice to disable HPET because even if you have it enabled in BIOS, Windows 10 won't use it by default
Point
Quote:
it will install the system device driver for it
Contradiction
Quote:
That is GOOD news
Also, just to point out another point you made:
Quote:
Windows 10 finally switched to some other (new?) method of handling latencies
It uses the TSC and/or TSC + LAPICs combo depending on your hardware and software configuration. Just as Win 7 / 8 / 8.1 did.

The issue is that you are forming a global view based on your isolated case, and have concluded this to be the truth behind OS and timers. Just to back up this point, here is another guy proclaiming absolute truth, but his point in the exact opposite to yours!
Quote:
By default Windows 7 uses different timers in the CPU to calculate stuff. HPET is the newest and best of these timers, but because of default combination of timers it takes longer time for CPU to keep up all the timers and sync between them. Forcing Windows to use HPET only improves performance and leads to greater FPS.

Steps to enable this tweak:

1. Enable HPET in BIOS. If you have HPET option in BIOS then your hardware can support HPET.

2. Enable HPET in Windows by giving this command in admin credential CMD:
bcdedit /set useplatformclock true

3. Reboot
Source: http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1075781-tweak-enable-hpet-in-bios-and-os-for-better-performance-and-fps/

Sure, he's talking about Win 7, but I've clearly made the point that OS has less to do with the timer and more to do with hardware and the executed applications.
 

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My program Harmonic can verify if you are using HPET or not. It also allows you to disable/enable it on the OS side.

Latency can be caused by HPET or can be cured by HPET. I feel this post is a little misinformed as Bradley has stated, but I know you meant well. Perhaps consider updating your main post and thread title, less you leave users with extra latency.

The real message should be: Try HPET Enabled in BIOS and OS to see if latencies are improved or worsened. Some HPETs cause microstutter in SLI or CFX, while other HPETs cure it.

There are no universals with HPET.

Link to Harmonic: http://www.bytemedev.com/programs/harmonic-help/



Windows 10 uses a combination of hardware and software, just like Windows 8 /8.1 did, for its clock. It's prone to manipulation and slight inaccuracy but it's also good enough for generic applications.

To use HPET: You have to have both the HPET clock physically enabled in BIOS and actually enabled in the OS and a program to test it is in use. It is not enabled by default.

Harmonic is one such program, it also provides you a quick ability to set the OS to use HPET. You have to perform a reboot to fully enable or disable it.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Quote:
Point
Quote:
Windows 10 - disable HPET before install and enjoy low latencies

Contradiction
Quote:
advice to disable HPET because even if you have it enabled in BIOS, Windows 10 won't use it by default
Yet it will install another needless driver, something that should be prevented since Windows 10 won't be using it anyway.
Quote:
Point
Quote:
it will install the system device driver for it

Contradiction
Quote:
That is GOOD news
Good news is that Windows 10 now using something other than ancient HPET because even if HPET is enabled in BIOS and Windows 10 installs the driver for it, it still won't enable it / use it.

It all makes sense if you read and use deduction to figure out what I am saying.

Quote:
Sure, he's talking about Win 7, but I've clearly made the point that OS has less to do with the timer and more to do with hardware and the executed applications.
Windows 10 is different because it provides much lower latencies with identical drivers even though it doesn't enable HPET in itself, even if HPET is enabled in BIOS and even though Windows 10 installs driver for it anyway.

There! Sure, my lower latencies experience can be my own, but something tells me most people would see my lower latencies in Windows 10 if they compared their rigs running Windows 8 vs. Windows 10.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonarchX View Post

Yet it will install another needless driver, something that should be prevented since Windows 10 won't be using it anyway.
Good news is that Windows 10 now using something other than ancient HPET because even if HPET is enabled in BIOS and Windows 10 installs the driver for it, it still won't enable it / use it.

It all makes sense if you read and use deduction to figure out what I am saying.
Windows 10 is different because it provides much lower latencies with identical drivers even though it doesn't enable HPET in itself, even if HPET is enabled in BIOS and even though Windows 10 installs driver for it anyway.

There! Sure, my lower latencies experience can be my own, but something tells me most people would see my lower latencies in Windows 10 if they compared their rigs running Windows 8 vs. Windows 10.
I'm not debating that. I am purely talking about how timers work and how each case is specific, as appose to your global view of timer optimization.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Quote:
Originally Posted by BradleyW View Post

I'm not debating that. I am purely talking about how timers work and how each case is specific, as appose to your global view of timer optimization.
Microsoft simply decided to do the right thing. See, when you pour water in a bowl - it becomes the bowl, when you pour water into a cup - it becomes the cup. The same thing happens to Windows 10
wink.gif
.
 

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So it depends on your processor. core2 and older do better with hpet. corei5 i3 i7 do better with their own built in timers. my core2 quad doesnt have a built in timer so hpet is the way to go.
 

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I did this a while back
bcdedit /deletevalue useplatformclock
but I think from memory the value was not there (meaning not used) even though I had HPET enabled in bios.
I disabled it after(in bios). DPCLat didn't change much, always low (below 50 us usually).
windows7 64

i wonder if it results in the same thing?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bandit8623 View Post

using windows 8 or higher? dpclat isnt accurate. use latencymon http://www.resplendence.com/latencymon

if you are using system timer u will see a value of around 3 if you have hpet enabled properly u will see 14 on this app. https://www.dropbox.com/s/6lczdp4pz4x0qqz/WinTimerTester_1.1.zip

once hpet is enabled in bios run this from admin cmd - bcdedit /set useplatformclock true

reboot and see the difference.
So what are you saying. Are you saying that ppl with 8.1 & 10 should enable Hpet with bcdedit /set useplatformclock true ? why ?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post

My program Harmonic can verify if you are using HPET or not. It also allows you to disable/enable it on the OS side.

Latency can be caused by HPET or can be cured by HPET. I feel this post is a little misinformed as Bradley has stated, but I know you meant well. Perhaps consider updating your main post and thread title, less you leave users with extra latency.

The real message should be: Try HPET Enabled in BIOS and OS to see if latencies are improved or worsened. Some HPETs cause microstutter in SLI or CFX, while other HPETs cure it.

There are no universals with HPET.

Link to Harmonic: http://www.bytemedev.com/programs/harmonic-help/



Windows 10 uses a combination of hardware and software, just like Windows 8 /8.1 did, for its clock. It's prone to manipulation and slight inaccuracy but it's also good enough for generic applications.

To use HPET: You have to have both the HPET clock physically enabled in BIOS and actually enabled in the OS and a program to test it is in use. It is not enabled by default.

Harmonic is one such program, it also provides you a quick ability to set the OS to use HPET. You have to perform a reboot to fully enable or disable it.
Great info, I will have to test this on my Rig at home as I have an SLI setup, not that I have any issues with it but nonetheless it will be interesting to see.
 

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Link to Harmonic: http://www.bytemedev.com/programs/harmonic-help/

"WARNING
That link may lead to dangerous or deceptive software!
VigLink has found the software you're trying to download on a list of potentially dangerous or deceptive programs. These programs might affect your system in ways beyond what the software advertises, transmit personal information, be difficult to uninstall, or be unsafe in other ways.
You can learn more about what makes software unsafe here https://www.google.com/about/company/unwanted-software-policy.html .
Suggestions
Return to the previous page
Or you can continue at your own risk to http://www.bytemedev.com/programs/harmonic-help/"

"The site that opens contains malware

Attackers at www.bytemedev.com can try to trick you into installing programs that hurt your web experience (for example, by replacing your homepage or displaying additional ads on sites you visit)."

Woot?
 

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Hey so I have a problem.

My QueryPerformanceFrequency is set at 25.000MHz with HPET on BIOS, no matter if I set platform false or delete platform. So it seems to be automatically forced on by my Windows 10?

Note: I upgraded from Win 7 using the free Win 10 assistance upgrade.

25. is what some other people would see as HPET as well.
xxx https://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/windowsdesktop/en-US/5398f9a8-8fe6-445b-86fb-9eeec869d3db/why-does-queryperformancefrequency-use-a-different-timer-in-each-windows-version?forum=windowsgeneraldevelopmentissues

I would like to know what it feels like to use 3.8 or 14.mhz.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonarchX View Post

When HPET (High Precision Event Timer) was enabled in BIOS, Windows 8.1 would automatically use it and install system device driver for it. Now I advice to disable HPET because even if you have it enabled in BIOS, Windows 10 won't use it by default, but it will install the system device driver for it. That is GOOD news because Windows 10 finally switched to some other (new?) method of handling latencies and it works much better than HPET!

How do I know? I compared my driver and process latencies between Windows 8.1 and Windows 10 using LatencyMon! The difference is HUGE! Aside from crappy Atheros Qualcom Wi-Fi drivers, my latencies hover between 8-16, at times as high as 20 when Wi-Fi is not in use. In Windows 8.1, my latencies hovered around 30-80ms!
In BF4 I have same results (2-3ms frametime latency) with HPET disabled in Bios & enabled in Windows 10- "bcdedit /set useplatformclock true".
Its the same as HPET enabled in Bios & disabled in Windows -"bcdedit /deletevalue useplatformclock"
I dont see any difference when disabledynamictick "bcdedit /set disabledynamictick yes" is enabled or disabled. At the momment I use it HPET-bios enabledm, HPET in Windows - disabled,
bcdedit /set tscsyncpolicy Enhanced -enabled & disabledynamictick - enabled with the 2-3ms frametimes.I plan to disable disabledynamictick. With HPET anabled in both Bios & Windows my frametimes get 2-3 times higher with big stutters & 2 times less FPS.
Are there other ways to lower the latencies???
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post

My program Harmonic can verify if you are using HPET or not. It also allows you to disable/enable it on the OS side.

Latency can be caused by HPET or can be cured by HPET. I feel this post is a little misinformed as Bradley has stated, but I know you meant well. Perhaps consider updating your main post and thread title, less you leave users with extra latency.

The real message should be: Try HPET Enabled in BIOS and OS to see if latencies are improved or worsened. Some HPETs cause microstutter in SLI or CFX, while other HPETs cure it.

There are no universals with HPET.

Link to Harmonic: http://www.bytemedev.com/programs/harmonic-help/



Windows 10 uses a combination of hardware and software, just like Windows 8 /8.1 did, for its clock. It's prone to manipulation and slight inaccuracy but it's also good enough for generic applications.

To use HPET: You have to have both the HPET clock physically enabled in BIOS and actually enabled in the OS and a program to test it is in use. It is not enabled by default.

Harmonic is one such program, it also provides you a quick ability to set the OS to use HPET. You have to perform a reboot to fully enable or disable it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PurpleChef View Post

Link to Harmonic: http://www.bytemedev.com/programs/harmonic-help/

"WARNING
That link may lead to dangerous or deceptive software!
VigLink has found the software you're trying to download on a list of potentially dangerous or deceptive programs. These programs might affect your system in ways beyond what the software advertises, transmit personal information, be difficult to uninstall, or be unsafe in other ways.
You can learn more about what makes software unsafe here https://www.google.com/about/company/unwanted-software-policy.html .
Suggestions
Return to the previous page
Or you can continue at your own risk to http://www.bytemedev.com/programs/harmonic-help/"

"The site that opens contains malware

Attackers at www.bytemedev.com can try to trick you into installing programs that hurt your web experience (for example, by replacing your homepage or displaying additional ads on sites you visit)."

Woot?
Harmonic doesn't seem to be available at the link any longer. Anyone have a working link? Does this work with the creators update?
 
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