I would love to believe this article but:

1. No pictures at all of said "first-class facilities". I understand the need to protect their methods and practices, but a couple pictures of unimportant areas would have made this much more believeable.

2. It's not terribly difficult to put on a good face for an audit. It is done all the time.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelbom

Hopefully others will follow after Apple, and increase their inspections of the facilities they use, and also to join the FLA as well.

Do you mean you hope companies continue with business as usual, fully aware of the terrible working conditions in the factories they employ for fab, and only react when there's a public outcry against them, threatening bans?

Besides, the report came back saying the company is fine and dandy--I would ask, what sort of company that is fine and dandy would be experiencing numerous accidents where people die or are seriously hurt? If that's the case, then there's a problem with the auditing process.

edit--Regardless, this is a reporting flaw--it's discussing the auditor's comparison to the garment industry? Is the garment industry a standard for fair and safe working? I would equate it to saying, "this company is fine because it's better than the worst working environment I've seen." Right...

Besides, the least-representative time to conduct an audit of a company is right after an accident happened. Of course things would have been cleaned up for an announced audit.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by guyladouche

Do you mean you hope companies continue with business as usual, fully aware of the terrible working conditions in the factories they employ for fab, and only react when there's a public outcry against them, threatening bans?
Besides, the report came back saying the company is fine and dandy--I would ask, what sort of company that is fine and dandy would be experiencing numerous accidents where people die or are seriously hurt? If that's the case, then there's a problem with the auditing process.

That's the opposite of what I said. I said, I hope they follow after Apple, and inspect their facilities more often -- and, join the FLA, so there can be even more inspections.

There's nothing Apple, or any other company, can do to improve the situation in China. It's the responsibility of the Chinese Government, and they're the only ones who can actually improve the lives of the workers, by passing laws for increased pay and so on.

You do need to understand that there's up to half a million workers in some factories, and that there are bound to be accidents at some point because someone didn't do their job properly.
Quote:

edit--Regardless, this is a reporting flaw--it's discussing the auditor's comparison to the garment industry? Is the garment industry a standard for fair and safe working? I would equate it to saying, "this company is fine because it's better than the worst working environment I've seen." Right...
Besides, the least-representative time to conduct an audit of a company is right after an accident happened. Of course things would have been cleaned up for an announced audit.

Apple's the first technology company to ever join the FLA, the auditor is simply noting the differences between the two industries and what they are accustom to addressing. He at no point ever said it's fine, and the actual audit hasn't even finished yet -- it's going to take three weeks to audit three separate Foxconn facilities representing 350,000 workers, and 35,000 of which will be participating in the anonymous group assessment surveys.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelbom

Apple's the first technology company to ever join the FLA, the auditor is simply noting the differences between the two industries and what they are accustom to addressing. He at no point ever said it's fine, and the actual audit hasn't even finished yet -- it's going to take three weeks to audit three separate Foxconn facilities representing 350,000 workers, and 35,000 of which will be participating in the anonymous group assessment surveys.

Don't get me wrong--I agree, nothing Apple can (or even should) do will change the working situation in China--it's a product of the socioeconomic status and cultural differences in the country, and it's a sad fact of the matter for the times.

But having been both audited and performing audits, announced audits--especially ones after a major incident, only show you how well a company can clean things up--not how it actually functions.

Regarding saying things are just fine--true, I used that phrase. The wording was:
Quote:

van Heerden said, "The facilities are first-class; the physical conditions are way, way above average of the norm."

Sounds better than "just fine" to me--which is why the reports are so troubling. "First-class" facilities generally shouldn't have reports of worker deaths, accidents, and suicides--even in a country that has the working history of China.

 

The advance notice may have helped. I would also imagine the fear of reprisal would keep any unhappy employee quiet.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by guyladouche

Don't get me wrong--I agree, nothing Apple can (or even should) do will change the working situation in China--it's a product of the socioeconomic status and cultural differences in the country, and it's a sad fact of the matter for the times.
But having been both audited and performing audits, announced audits--especially ones after a major incident, only show you how well a company can clean things up--not how it actually functions.
Regarding saying things are just fine--true, I used that phrase. The wording was:
Quote:

van Heerden said, "The facilities are first-class; the physical conditions are way, way above average of the norm."

Sounds better than "just fine" to me--which is why the reports are so troubling. "First-class" facilities generally shouldn't have reports of worker deaths, accidents, and suicides--even in a country that has the working history of China.

I disagree with your conclusion that " nothing Apple can (or even should) do will change the working situation in China", because manufacturers can build their own facilities and hire who the want and run them as they see fit in quasi-free market China these days. The thing is, how many companies are going to spend more by paying better wages, working employees shorter hours, safer working conditions- etc etc. and therefore hurt their bottom line when they can spend less? The answer is clear- NONE. At least none that I am aware of. All of the companies doing business in China seem to be taking advantage of the situation without regards to what that means to Chinese workeres- and also what that means to the workers in the rest of the world who are out of work because things can be done in China for so much less money. I guarantee you that if Apple or any other megacorp wanted to build their own plants and pay workers decent wages and have better working conditions in China they could, they simply choose not to. There is a big difference between can't and won't.

I definitley agree that this report is "troubling". Apple is under scrutiny for having neo-slave laborers in China, and then suddenly an "independant" study finds that things are actually "First -Class"? Ya right, and in other news, the "fair labor association " has also discovered that the moon is made out of cheese.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by guyladouche

Don't get me wrong--I agree, nothing Apple can (or even should) do will change the working situation in China--it's a product of the socioeconomic status and cultural differences in the country, and it's a sad fact of the matter for the times.
But having been both audited and performing audits, announced audits--especially ones after a major incident, only show you how well a company can clean things up--not how it actually functions.

Oh I know, however there will be more audits. Apple inspected their facilities around 250 times in 2011, a more than double increase from 2010, and they do it randomly I believe. This is the first audit by the FLA, and there should be many more, and likely unannounced audits.
Quote:

Regarding saying things are just fine--true, I used that phrase. The wording was:
Quote:

van Heerden said, "The facilities are first-class; the physical conditions are way, way above average of the norm."

Sounds better than "just fine" to me--which is why the reports are so troubling. "First-class" facilities generally shouldn't have reports of worker deaths, accidents, and suicides--even in a country that has the working history of China.

He's saying it's first-class for a sweatshop, ultimately as I said, they house up to half a million people in a single factory. It'd be really difficult to manage all those people and not have any accidents, or any suicides. I've read although I've not verified this, that they suicide because the financial benefits to their family is greater than their pay, it's sad.

That aside, it doesn't sound to me as if he's saying the facility is okay:
Quote:

"I was very surprised when I walked onto the floor at Foxconn, how tranquil it is compared with a garment factory," he said. "So the problems are not the intensity and burnout and pressure-cooker environment you have in a garment factory. . It's more a function of monotony, of boredom, of alienation perhaps."

He's just noting the differences between the two industries, and figuring out what to look for.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagged_Steel

I disagree with your conclusion that " nothing Apple can (or even should) do will change the working situation in China", because manufacturers can build their own facilities and hire who the want and run them as they see fit in quasi-free market China these days. The thing is, how many companies are going to spend more by paying better wages, working employees shorter hours, safer working conditions- etc etc. and therefore hurt their bottom line when they can spend less? The answer is clear- NONE. At least none that I am aware of. All of the companies doing business in China seem to be taking advantage of the situation without regards to what that means to Chinese workeres- and also what that means to the workers in the rest of the world who are out of work because things can be done in China for so much less money. I guarantee you that if Apple or any other megacorp wanted to build their own plants and pay workers decent wages and have better working conditions in China they could, they simply choose not to. There is a big difference between can't and won't.
I definitley agree that this report is "troubling". Apple is under scrutiny for having neo-slave laborers in China, and then suddenly an "independant" study finds that things are actually "First -Class"? Ya right, and in other news, the "fair labor association " has also discovered that the moon is made out of cheese.

They can't afford to invest tens of billions of dollars and hire millions of workers to produce their products. These Chinese Workers aren't being forced to work either, they flock to Foxconn when jobs are available, so Apple's actually giving jobs to a heavily overpopulated country -- that's helping them. There's no other company large enough that can handle Apple's work load, and you can't expect them to bring it to the US. That'll cause hundreds of thousands of Chinese workers to lose their jobs, that's Apple's fault too? Right? That aside, the costs are far too exorbitant to import the necessary materials, and pay americans to produce products.

Everyone needs to keep using China, it's just that the Chinese Government need to pass laws for increased pay. That way, everyone wins.

And the auditor didn't say that everything is okay, look at the quote in its entire context.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagged_Steel

I disagree with your conclusion that " nothing Apple can (or even should) do will change the working situation in China", because manufacturers can build their own facilities and hire who the want and run them as they see fit in quasi-free market China these days. The thing is, how many companies are going to spend more by paying better wages, working employees shorter hours, safer working conditions- etc etc. and therefore hurt their bottom line when they can spend less? The answer is clear- NONE. At least none that I am aware of. All of the companies doing business in China seem to be taking advantage of the situation without regards to what that means to Chinese workeres- and also what that means to the workers in the rest of the world who are out of work because things can be done in China for so much less money. I guarantee you that if Apple or any other megacorp wanted to build their own plants and pay workers decent wages and have better working conditions in China they could, they simply choose not to. There is a big difference between can't and won't.
I definitley agree that this report is "troubling". Apple is under scrutiny for having neo-slave laborers in China, and then suddenly an "independant" study finds that things are actually "First -Class"? Ya right, and in other news, the "fair labor association " has also discovered that the moon is made out of cheese.

I agree that companies should take actions to better conditions--but the practical question is what would happen, and how much would help, and is it one company's responsibility to do so? Does the fact that Apple has more cash on hand than the US government mean that they should spend more money to make their products than other companies? The fair person in me says no (but the mean person in me says yes!

). But the problem with saying that Apple should spend more, make their own factories, etc. is problematic because (a) Apple has no expertise in doing this, but more importantly (b) it would directly oppose the other companies there. I would assume that the workers at this "apple" plant would also be better-treated and probably get paid more too. That would put huge strains on the general work-force environment to levy wage increases at other areas--could be pretty chaotic.

All of this is a socioeconomic state issue, and will have to take a long time to grow out of. The US went through the industrial revolution over 200 years ago, and only 50-60 years ago did working environments (safety and conditions) really change. But we're talking about a different country with different cultural beliefs--the same outcome that the US saw after the industrial revolution might not manifest to nearly the same degree.

 

ya I lolled at this too, why were they using IPads? also do you think these workers are going to put down what they really feel? there is no anonymity in a COMMUNIST REGIME - CHINA.

this all boils down to another publicity stunt by Apple to cover its ass.

-doober

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doober

ya I lolled at this too, why were they using IPads? also do you think these workers are going to put down what they really feel? there is no anonymity in a COMMUNIST REGIME - CHINA.
this all boils down to another publicity stunt by Apple to cover its ass.
-doober

The group consists of 35,000 anonymous workers across three different factories, there's no way Foxconn will know who said what. Apple's not doing anything wrong, and nor is any other company using Foxconn, so they've got nothing to cover.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelbom

The group consists of 35,000 anonymous workers across three different factories, there's no way Foxconn will know who said what. Apple's not doing anything wrong, and nor is any other company using Foxconn, so they've got nothing to cover.

If they wanted to it'd be as easy as taking a photo each time a survey completes. That would assume the FLA is in Apple's pocket though ...or Apple provided the iPads for the audit.. (Again, why are they taking surveys on iPads?)

That being said, I agree the working conditions blow but isn't Apple's fault. Just look at our short term history - wasn't much different for Americans back in the day. (And seems to be regressing)

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doober

ya I lolled at this too, why were they using IPads? also do you think these workers are going to put down what they really feel? there is no anonymity in a COMMUNIST REGIME - CHINA.
this all boils down to another publicity stunt by Apple to cover its ass.
-doober

There's nohing communist about modern China, it's more of an ultra free market autocracy now.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nugu

If they wanted to it'd be as easy as taking a photo each time a survey completes. That would assume the FLA is in Apple's pocket though ...or Apple provided the iPads for the audit.. (Again, why are they taking surveys on iPads?)
That being said, I agree the working conditions blow but isn't Apple's fault. Just look at our short term history - wasn't much different for Americans back in the day. (And seems to be regressing)

How'd taking a photo of them each time a survey completes show them who said what? And I'm sure they're not allowed to do that.

 

I love this. My major qualm with this whole situation is that the ONLY reason Apple did this was to recover reputation after a gigantic searing blow straight to them over the quality of living their outsourced labor has. Its pretty much a slap in the face to Americans though, "Hey, we hear you, sorry we treat our underpaid oversea workers poorly - here we'll spend a SMALL FRACTION of the money it would cost to bring the labor to the US and create jobs to stimulate the economy a little bit to make them live a little better - sound good?"

 

Today:
Quote:

Van Heerden made the comments in a telephone interview after a multiday inspection of the factory. Apple, the first technology company to join the FLA, said on Feb. 13 that it asked the Washington-based nonprofit organization to inspect plants owned by three of its largest manufacturing partners.

"We're finding tons of issues," van Heerden said en route to a meeting where FLA inspectors were scheduled to present preliminary findings to Foxconn management. "I believe we're going to see some very significant announcements in the near future."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-17/foxconn-auditor-finds-tons-of-issues-.html

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squirrel

Today:
Quote:

Van Heerden made the comments in a telephone interview after a multiday inspection of the factory. Apple, the first technology company to join the FLA, said on Feb. 13 that it asked the Washington-based nonprofit organization to inspect plants owned by three of its largest manufacturing partners.
"We're finding tons of issues," van Heerden said en route to a meeting where FLA inspectors were scheduled to present preliminary findings to Foxconn management. "I believe we're going to see some very significant announcements in the near future."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-17/foxconn-auditor-finds-tons-of-issues-.html

Yeah, I said it was just a preliminary analysis. The real inspection is in progress. Good to know they're thorough!

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telimektar

There's nohing communist about modern China, it's more of an ultra free market autocracy now.

you are kidding right? yes I did make an "internet generalization", but I bet we can name more communist things about China than we can name democratic/free? so yes they're more heavily Communist than they are free.

maybe the economic side of Communism is dying down, but don't be fooled that the controlling government side is still very strong (not as bad as North Korea though)

-doober

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xaero252

I love this. My major qualm with this whole situation is that the ONLY reason Apple did this was to recover reputation after a gigantic searing blow straight to them over the quality of living their outsourced labor has. Its pretty much a slap in the face to Americans though, "Hey, we hear you, sorry we treat our underpaid oversea workers poorly - here we'll spend a SMALL FRACTION of the money it would cost to bring the labor to the US and create jobs to stimulate the economy a little bit to make them live a little better - sound good?"

exactly! every corporation does this we are not fools. This is what I was meaning by covering their asses. It is like when BP a British Company effed up in the US's Gulf and said "Were sorry", which I will not get into that, but they have effed up a lot in the US because they have no vested interest.

-doober

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doober

you are kidding right? yes I did make an "internet generalization", but I bet we can name more communist things about China than we can name democratic/free? so yes they're more heavily Communist than they are free.
maybe the economic side of Communism is dying down, but don't be fooled that the controlling government side is still very strong (not as bad as North Korea though)
-doober

Free as in free market, not free as in freedom, that's why I said it's an autocracy, except the State isn't governed by a single person but by a single entity (the Party). That same party renounced all communist principles and adopted a form of extreme capitalism completely open to foreign investements while keeping the right to intervene if they feel it's in their interest.

 

I can guarantee that people will be back on their over burdened schedule as soon as the inspectors leave. Inspections show that you are capable of following standards, not that you do it all the time.
Apple will need to have workplace monitors (that can't be bribed) watching things 24/7/365 or they may as well have just said "it's ok because we gave them a gold sticker".