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AMD Athlon II X2 220 vs AMD Athlon II X2 280 vs AMD Phenom II X4 900e vs AMD Phenom II x4 910E vs 1055T

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cdoublejj

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Have this, http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/K10/AMD-Athlon%20II%20X2%20220%20-%20ADX220OCK22GM.html

Am using a stock 125 six core cooler, lapped (cpu lapped) get AMAZING temps we are talking 40c MAX even under stress testing at stock settings. MAX! So basicly it practily runs at room temp.

thinking about upgrading or overclocking... just thinking about it.

http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/K10/AMD-Athlon%20II%20X2%20280%20-%20ADX280OCK23GM%20-%20ADX280OCGMBOX.html

https://www.mercadomagico.com/product-173417.html?gclid=CMjt7vSM074CFeJDMgodpUYATA

http://www.ebay.com/itm/271481068252?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

http://www.ebay.com/itm/AMD-Phenom-II-x4-910E-HD910EOCK4DGM-Quad-Core-2-6GHz-8M-AM3-65W-Processor-/140977497921?pt=CPUs&hash=item20d2e9e741

Of course they sell those new fancy crappy CPUs with so so performance that really only shine with truly multi threaded apps. that draw back six cores like 1035T or 1055T is that they are 95 watt minimum. i had though there was a 65watt six core at one time but, maybe i'm just thinking of the 65 watt quad cores?

Thoughts? recommendations?

PS: i'm talking about my HTPC witch i don't have speced/listed on OCN.
 
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Discussion starter · #3 ·
true but, you do gain 800 mhz with out the TDP increasing other than as you said it's pretty much pointless given the price, it's looks like a for 30 bucks more i can have a quad but, at lower clock speed but with the addition of L3 cache and a slightly different architecture.

I have one of these boards,

http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=3447#ov

http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=3142#ov

there is budget to upgrade but, not replace whole the dang thing or the mother board as OCN most often suggest.

I use it for XBMC and steam, movies and games. it works fine now so that's why i'm only entertain the idea of upgrading.
 
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#4 ·
I am not really familiar with the Phenom xxxE series , as i had only a Ahtlon 64 5050E as energy efficient. If you are looking to fit something into this 95W motherboard , while looking for something strong to run decently on a bit newer games , i would suggest Phenom II 955/965T BE as they have the possibility to unlock to hexacore. If you are going for something that runs with less power , then i would say the 910E. For a bit more money you can get a bit more powerful Motherboard , which supports 145W CPU's. But considering you are on budged , i will give you what i did : i am using a hybrid motherboard - AM2/AM3+ , with 2xDDR2/2xDDR3 support. Yes , it is 95W , but its budget one - costed me around 55$. If you are trying to squeeze the maximum for gaming , it would be better to throw 20-30$ more - go for hybrid MB/better one , and get 955/965/1055/1065T CPu. For power efficency - the Gigabyte boards will do with the 910E
 
Discussion starter · #7 ·
actually the mobo can handle 125 watt CPUs at least VMR cooling which i have installed i'm looking for something to run cool with my cooler, space is limited even low profile coolers like the Samuel might not fit and if they did it wouldn't matter i've designed all my cooling around my existing heat sinks. airgo any thing under 95 watts will work great, 64 watts running the coolest as does my current 65 watt chip.

i might look in to an 910E maybe if i can find one cheap.
 
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#8 ·
If you want even cooler quads, keep in mind that there are also Athlon II 600e, 605e, 610e, 615e and i think there was even a 620e. They are practically the same as their Phenom energy efficient counterparts, without the L3 cache, which is why they are all 45W. I have the 605e. Undervolted it's a joke to cool. The thing can't generate heat. The loss in performance goes from virtually 0% to 10% in some games. But average, it's 5% or less compared to the Phenoms with the same clock. My 605e can run 2.3@1.05v, which is practically even less than 45W. The entire rig (with HD6450), draws 105W at full load, 60W at idle. Even the most worthless cooler can cool that CPU.
 
Discussion starter · #9 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undervolter View Post

If you want even cooler quads, keep in mind that there are also Athlon II 600e, 605e, 610e, 615e and i think there was even a 620e. They are practically the same as their Phenom energy efficient counterparts, without the L3 cache, which is why they are all 45W. I have the 605e. Undervolted it's a joke to cool. The thing can't generate heat. The loss in performance goes from virtually 0% to 10% in some games. But average, it's 5% or less compared to the Phenoms with the same clock. My 605e can run 2.3@1.05v, which is practically even less than 45W. The entire rig (with HD6450), draws 105W at full load, 60W at idle. Even the most worthless cooler can cool that CPU.
Click to expand...
Have you tried clocking it yet? i just got 3.6 out of my 240. I have an AMD quad/hexa core heat sink with heat pipes. i was thinking if i got a low wattage quad i could OC. however ifi rebuild my sig rig i though about putting the 1100T in the HTPC but, i need a better cooler, the last i remember the Samuel 12 if i remember right came iin conversation a few times on OCN.
 
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#10 ·
I used to have a Sempron 140 in my AM3 rig that ran maybe 3-4C over ambient fully loaded at stock. Of course, that was under a Noctua nh-d14 with CLU, which was a bit silly. But hey it ran cool!

Seriously, though, the main question you should be asking yourself is: what kind of performance increase do I need from my CPU upgrade? If you are already hitting 3.6 ghz with your 240, then that almost writes off the top-end Regor chips (Athlon II x2 270-280 etc) which may hit 4.2-4.3 ghz max. You do get an extra 512k l2 per core with those chips, for what it's worth.

If you are dealing with a workload that can load up 6 cores, a Thuban would make sense. If not, stick with a Deneb, Propus, or Zosma chip. If your primary workloads struggle to utilize more than two cores, then a faster dual-core might be about the only upgrade that would make any sense (though I find it unlikely that you can find no use for an extra two cores).

Oh, and make sure that whatever chip you get is a C3-stepping chip (or R0 for Thuban/Zosma). C2 chips should be written off immediately.
 
Discussion starter · #11 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by drmrlordx View Post

I used to have a Sempron 140 in my AM3 rig that ran maybe 3-4C over ambient fully loaded at stock. Of course, that was under a Noctua nh-d14 with CLU, which was a bit silly. But hey it ran cool!

Seriously, though, the main question you should be asking yourself is: what kind of performance increase do I need from my CPU upgrade? If you are already hitting 3.6 ghz with your 240, then that almost writes off the top-end Regor chips (Athlon II x2 270-280 etc) which may hit 4.2-4.3 ghz max. You do get an extra 512k l2 per core with those chips, for what it's worth.

If you are dealing with a workload that can load up 6 cores, a Thuban would make sense. If not, stick with a Deneb, Propus, or Zosma chip. If your primary workloads struggle to utilize more than two cores, then a faster dual-core might be about the only upgrade that would make any sense (though I find it unlikely that you can find no use for an extra two cores).

Oh, and make sure that whatever chip you get is a C3-stepping chip (or R0 for Thuban/Zosma). C2 chips should be written off immediately.
Click to expand...
I'm looking at a work load that can use up to 4 cores with 6 cores freeing up more resources for the demanding work loads if you include that the OSes overhead. Basically games that use more than 2 cores + windows, also considering using "Dolphin" witch uses 3 threads it's main work load.

However I'm looking to go all out, just maybe upgrade the CPU, RAM, GPU and drives (optical and HDD) 1 at a time over a period of time to reduce costs. Also everything is drafted and configured specifically around the mobo.

240 Regor @ 3.61 -> Low watt quad or 6 core
4x1GB DDR 2 800 @ 860 -> swap/add some $25 - $35 4GB DDR2 800 Sticks
2GB DDR3 GT 640 LP -> 2GB GDDR5 GTX750 Ti LP
60GB SSD
2TB HDD -> 4TB or 6 TB
DVD ROM -> BD-Rom
 
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#13 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdoublejj View Post

I'm looking at a work load that can use up to 4 cores with 6 cores freeing up more resources for the demanding work loads if you include that the OSes overhead. Basically games that use more than 2 cores + windows, also considering using "Dolphin" witch uses 3 threads it's main work load.

However I'm looking to go all out, just maybe upgrade the CPU, RAM, GPU and drives (optical and HDD) 1 at a time over a period of time to reduce costs. Also everything is drafted and configured specifically around the mobo.

240 Regor @ 3.61 -> Low watt quad or 6 core
4x1GB DDR 2 800 @ 860 -> swap/add some $25 - $35 4GB DDR2 800 Sticks
2GB DDR3 GT 640 LP -> 2GB GDDR5 GTX750 Ti LP
60GB SSD
2TB HDD -> 4TB or 6 TB
DVD ROM -> BD-Rom
Click to expand...
Interesting. I can tell you that the prices on K10.5 chips are still too high considering their age. I did see some interesting deals on eBay, such as some Zosma chips that were going for pretty cheap (and all Zosma chips have a chance to unlock to a Thuban). Really, if I wanted a quad for sure, I'd be looking at a Zosma. There is probably some real undervolting potential in those things.

If you are patient, prices may eventually collapse on the quads and the hexcores, but for now they are still inflated somewhat. Lots of people out there with am2+/am3 board that just don't want to let go, I guess.
 
Discussion starter · #14 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by drmrlordx View Post

Interesting. I can tell you that the prices on K10.5 chips are still too high considering their age. I did see some interesting deals on eBay, such as some Zosma chips that were going for pretty cheap (and all Zosma chips have a chance to unlock to a Thuban). Really, if I wanted a quad for sure, I'd be looking at a Zosma. There is probably some real undervolting potential in those things.

If you are patient, prices may eventually collapse on the quads and the hexcores, but for now they are still inflated somewhat. Lots of people out there with am2+/am3 board that just don't want to let go, I guess.
Click to expand...
Well if i put a six core in there i'll use the on from my sig rig. Other wise im not against waiting or paying 78 bucks for low watt quad.

What i'm after is not just low temps but, low temps and decent over clocking which low wattage chips have both of. there are already low wattage so they run cool and they tend to over clock well and by the time you have over clocked they tend to still run cool enough. at least with the 220 and 240. but, if the zosma at stock clocks is faster than an OCed 10.5K and is 65 watts or there about i guess it's all good.

I could totally rebuild the whole thing but, it's more money at once and more work and would require a clean install of the OS.

EDIT: zosma isn't an FX chip lol.
 
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#15 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdoublejj View Post

Well if i put a six core in there i'll use the on from my sig rig. Other wise im not against waiting or paying 78 bucks for low watt quad.

What i'm after is not just low temps but, low temps and decent over clocking which low wattage chips have both of. there are already low wattage so they run cool and they tend to over clock well and by the time you have over clocked they tend to still run cool enough. at least with the 220 and 240. but, if the zosma at stock clocks is faster than an OCed 10.5K and is 65 watts or there about i guess it's all good.

I could totally rebuild the whole thing but, it's more money at once and more work and would require a clean install of the OS.
Click to expand...
Bear in mind that there are different kinds of LV chips, assuming you're dealing within the same uarch/stepping.

The "old fashioned" way to produce an LV chip was to bin a bunch of CPUs from your normal wafers, take the ones that bin really well, and sell them as LV/mobile parts. Think Athlon XP mobile. Those guys hit 2.5 ghz almost like clockwork at nice, low voltages.

Then you have chips from wafers that are run "cold" at the fab (don't ask me what that means in technical terms, I'm just parroting jargon I heard years ago when discussing Propus, among other things). These chips are characterized by very low gate leakage and some other features, which makes for some nice LV operation but poor high-end clockspeeds.

In the case of Zosma and other R0 K10.5 chips (Thuban), AMD made some significant optimizations in process and design to improve overall performance/watt. The differences between C2 and R0 are massive. You could have a C2 quad and an R0 hexcore at about the same clockspeed within the same power envelope, with the biggest winner being the 95W x6 1055T which could actually run more cores at a similar clockspeed for a lower TDP than some C2 Denebs..

A Zosma is just a Thuban with two cores disabled (I think there are some with a portion of their L3 disabled as well). If, by some good fortune, you were able to find a Zosma from the same wafers that spawned 1055Ts, later 1090Ts, and 1100Ts, you could potentially have one easily hitting 2.8 ghz in a ~65W TDP envelope, and that's a conservative estimate.

Even the "inferior" 125W 1055Ts were able to maintain 2.8 ghz at a 125W TDP, the same TDP as the C2-stepping x4 920. A Zosma from one of those wafers should have a "real world" TDP of ~80W @ 2.8 ghz, again speaking conservatively.

Bottom line: You might get a low advertised TDP from one of the Athlon II x4 e chips, but you will get poor overclocking potential and of course no L3 cache. Anything R0 stepping will have nice OC headroom and will be able to be at least as efficient when undervolted as any of the C2/C3 Propus LV parts. I saw a few Zosmas on eBay in the $80 range or less. It's possible to track which Thuban parts they were "meant to be" prior to falling into the Zosma pile during binning by looking at their 5 letter code and running it through cpu-world.

edit: meh, this
 is the best deal on a Zosma I could find on short notice. Kind of disappointing. $90 shipped isn't too bad, but it's still too much for such an old chip, and an 840 at that.
Quote:
EDIT: zosma isn't an FX chip lol.
Click to expand...
Indeed it is not. That's probably a good thing! heh heh.
 
Discussion starter · #16 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by drmrlordx View Post

Bear in mind that there are different kinds of LV chips, assuming you're dealing within the same uarch/stepping.

The "old fashioned" way to produce an LV chip was to bin a bunch of CPUs from your normal wafers, take the ones that bin really well, and sell them as LV/mobile parts. Think Athlon XP mobile. Those guys hit 2.5 ghz almost like clockwork at nice, low voltages.

Then you have chips from wafers that are run "cold" at the fab (don't ask me what that means in technical terms, I'm just parroting jargon I heard years ago when discussing Propus, among other things). These chips are characterized by very low gate leakage and some other features, which makes for some nice LV operation but poor high-end clockspeeds.

In the case of Zosma and other R0 K10.5 chips (Thuban), AMD made some significant optimizations in process and design to improve overall performance/watt. The differences between C2 and R0 are massive. You could have a C2 quad and an R0 hexcore at about the same clockspeed within the same power envelope, with the biggest winner being the 95W x6 1055T which could actually run more cores at a similar clockspeed for a lower TDP than some C2 Denebs..

A Zosma is just a Thuban with two cores disabled (I think there are some with a portion of their L3 disabled as well). If, by some good fortune, you were able to find a Zosma from the same wafers that spawned 1055Ts, later 1090Ts, and 1100Ts, you could potentially have one easily hitting 2.8 ghz in a ~65W TDP envelope, and that's a conservative estimate.

Even the "inferior" 125W 1055Ts were able to maintain 2.8 ghz at a 125W TDP, the same TDP as the C2-stepping x4 920. A Zosma from one of those wafers should have a "real world" TDP of ~80W @ 2.8 ghz, again speaking conservatively.

Bottom line: You might get a low advertised TDP from one of the Athlon II x4 e chips, but you will get poor overclocking potential and of course no L3 cache. Anything R0 stepping will have nice OC headroom and will be able to be at least as efficient when undervolted as any of the C2/C3 Propus LV parts. I saw a few Zosmas on eBay in the $80 range or less. It's possible to track which Thuban parts they were "meant to be" prior to falling into the Zosma pile during binning by looking at their 5 letter code and running it through cpu-world.

edit: meh, this
 is the best deal on a Zosma I could find on short notice. Kind of disappointing. $90 shipped isn't too bad, but it's still too much for such an old chip, and an 840 at that.
Indeed it is not. That's probably a good thing! heh heh.
Click to expand...
...weeeeellllllll i have found the AMD Phenom II X4 905e between $72 and $84 USD... not toooooooo bad.

You know your stuff and I can tell by the Athon XP reference you have been doing this at least a short long while. + Rep

http://www.ebay.com/itm/400741931112?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

http://www.ebay.com/itm/271540483420?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Unfortunately the last one @ 72 bucks will be gone long before i can afford it unless it's cream of the crop too good to pass up then i'm willing to spend a little money i don't have. Perhaps you can tell if they are "R0"

EDIT:

http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/K10/AMD-Phenom%20II%20X4%20905e%20-%20HD905EOCK4DGI%20%28HD905EOCGIBOX%29.html

http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/K10/AMD-Phenom%20II%20X4%20905e%20-%20HD905EOCK4DGM.html
 
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#17 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdoublejj View Post

...weeeeellllllll i have found the AMD Phenom II X4 905e between $72 and $84 USD... not toooooooo bad.

You know your stuff and I can tell by the Athon XP reference you have been doing this at least a short long while. + Rep
Click to expand...
Thanks, I do what I can. Yeah i've been poking around the enthusiast scene for . . . awhile.
Quote:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/400741931112?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

http://www.ebay.com/itm/271540483420?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Unfortunately the last one @ 72 bucks will be gone long before i can afford it unless it's cream of the crop too good to pass up then i'm willing to spend a little money i don't have. Perhaps you can tell if they are "R0"
Click to expand...
Okay, first off: the one for $72 has "GM" at the end of the product code, while the one for $85 has "GI" at the end of the product code.

GM = C3
GI = C2

Between the two, the C3-stepping chip is the better deal, since it is a more recent stepping with better clockspeed potential on CPU and NB, and the memory controller is more likely to reach high memory clocks than the C2 chip. My lowly C3-stepping Athlon II x2 220 can hit maybe DDR3-1860 if I use the 1:4 ratio (will not do that speed on any other ratio, like 3:8). I am not sure if the 905e is binned for quality or if it came off a "cold" wafer run. My guess would be the former. Those are not R0 chips, though.

You can tell an R0-stepping CPU from the GR at the end of the product code if all else fails.

Quote:
http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/K10/AMD-Phenom%20II%20X4%20905e%20-%20HD905EOCK4DGI%20%28HD905EOCGIBOX%29.html

http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/K10/AMD-Phenom%20II%20X4%20905e%20-%20HD905EOCK4DGM.html
Click to expand...
There you go, you've got all the data for yourself. As you can see, GM = C3, GI = C2. GR = R0. Most of the R0 chips are either x6 processors or x4s with the "T" designation, though there are some rare non-T x4s (like a small run of the Athlon II x4 640 with GR at the end of the product code. People want a ton of money for those for some reason).
 
Discussion starter · #19 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by ku4eto View Post

Guys... you can get for 100-110$ a 960T BE. Don't know how that sounds to you but raw horsepower and can take quite the beating in terms of heat on measly stock cooler for 1 cored CPU.
Click to expand...
That is the Zosma he was talking about. Keep in mind low wattage is going to HOPEFULLY OC better and even if not it's still gonna run cooler and put less stress on the PSU and VRMs and not heat up the rest of the system as much... this is not to say it's not an option but, if read his post that's too much money to pay for the performance you get. also he just linked a Zosma for $90 bucks. i'm gonna spend $110 for 95 watt or more i might as well get a six core.... assuming they aren't $200.
 
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#20 ·
Well your choice, i do not see the big deal with low power CPU's. Even if they run on low voltages, it doesn't mean that they will OC better.
It means that they will just run on less power and will generate less heat.
 
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cdoublejj
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